[amphibian]

I bought a couple video games for my young cousin. She is six years old, bright, inquisitive and blessed with a sense of humor that gently verges on schadenfreude.

Do you know how many readily available console games there are that fit into the box of "ok for her to play and have a strong female lead in a great story"? Very, very few when discounting the likes of the Barbie games.

That's... not good and most of the professionals in the gaming industry actually recognize this. It's the majority of the audience that doesn't and they're the ones that drive future gaming creations with their monetary votes.

How does one track monetary votes when the games that could be potentially bought by an audience patiently waiting for them don't exist?

My cousin probably isn't ever going to be the gaming industry's ideal customer - spending hundreds of dollars per year on games/consoles etc - but she's not being well served by the current system and it's little to do with any ill effects of feminism.

[worry]

As a counter to what Apt said, here's a writer for Bojack Horseman talking about why it's not exactly as simple as "writing good characters" -- it's a different medium on the surface (animated comedy), but it speaks to writing in general: http://boringoldraph...th-time-at-what

[Aptorian]

I am really digging a hole here for myself but here we go.

Illuyankas, on 09 January 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

In taking up the fight against what ever inequality, the need for attention or understanding of the issue over powers all other needs or view points. In the case of the feminist video gamer it becomes imperative that the female character is not only given her due, but in fact empowered and raised up to some point that becomes unrealistic or ridiculous.

This is as accurate a statement as saying all Christians are like WBC, aka it's total garbage and wrong. Please stop conflating the issues with the overly exaggerated most vocal positions the cherrypicked extreme nutters spew forth, cause they are seriously not the majority and it's completely dishonest and ignorant to blithely assume so.

Oh come of it. Go look up the average "woman's angle" opinion piece on Polygon or Kotaku. I'm not talking about some wacko burning her bra on the steps of congress. I'm talking about well known and respected women in video games media who write click-bait bullshit trying to drum up outrage.

Illuyankas, on 09 January 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Any slight against female is a crime, like Lara Croft almost being raped by a bad person on a bad island or a female NPC being a hooker in a GTA game (because social realism is bad). Any story that does not feature a strong, well written female character is thumb in the eye of the right minded, like AC Unity lacking female co-op skins or hey, Super Mario because Peach is in another castle, etc.

Why would people take offence at female characters getting majority-woman related threats like rape (which is nowhere in dude backstories and in a huge amount of lady backstories), or a game where the female characters are not playable, horrible caricatures, or brainless npcs that you murderfuck? And don't tell me GTA is realistic because pfffffffft. The idea of 'hey maybe there could be women characters who don't have game stuff focused on their gender' has been distorted into 'unless Zelda is the new hero in Legend of Zelda games I'm going to become hysterical' and it's nonsense.

A man getting raped is seldom an issue unless it's a game about tentacle monsters or set in a prison. Come to think of it, I am pretty sure Mars: Warlogs and one of the Splinter Cell games had some content revolving prison rape. Not actually depicted rape of course but it comes up as an issue.

How many games actually bring up rape? Is there a list somewhere? I just did a bit of googling and the only examples that came up from within the last 10 years was the Tomb Raider controversy and a scene from Hotline Miami 2 that features some kind of simulated rape scene.

Are we arguing that in a situation where Lara Croft encounters violent, depraved, island secluded men, one of these men might not get the sexual urge to force himself upon her? From a story telling point this says more about the island and the people on it, than it does about Croft. Especially considering this is the turning point in the game where she goes from victim to heroine as she has to come to grips with having killed a man. This is a bad island, where bad people do bad things. It's not like the encounter is played off or made light off in any way.

And I am sorry but GTA is one of the few games that actually tries to bring up socio-realistic problems, only it does it through satire. In my opinion the fact there are prostitutes in GTA that you can sort of have sex with is not an issue. The fact there are not male prostitutes, transgender prostitutes and fucking child prostitutes is the real issue here. As though the lives these people are not as important as women in the sex industry.

But hey, that's an uncomfortable subject so better just ignore it and not put it in a game where it's okay to cut people up with a chainsaw.

Illuyankas, on 09 January 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

In reality, at least in my opinion, your sex or sexuality, your skin color, your heritage or creed means nothing at all. Your gender does not define you unless you want it to define you.

And over here in the real world, the opinions of others on those definitions continue to fuck up and harm people all the time. Legislatively! And video games are one of the most popular forms of entertainment in the Western world, which can't be so easily dismissed. The role of the media we consume as children on our general development is inarguable.

I don't disagree with that but being a woman, black, gay, etc. is not a disability nor is it special badge of merit. These groups do not get a pass when you're telling a story where bad things happen to bad people.

Similarly it's not the job of the video game industry to champion the rights of women, homosexuals and others minorities. It would be awesome if the writing was better, but when I am playing Cyborg Space Ninja: Origins Reborn about some person who has to kill a million green monsters to save the day, I do not give a fuck whether I am playing as a male, female or a person who sexually identifies as a schizophrenic dolphin trapped in a 6 headed dragons body.

Illuyankas, on 09 January 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Where my issue lies with much of Sarkeesian work is the angle. When a woman is kidnapped it is an insult because it implies women are weak and need men to save them. Which is twisting the actual implied story. E.g. A loved one has been taken and the partner is willing to go through hell and high water to bring the loved one back.

When 95% of rescue plots are 'man saves woman who can't save herself without man' there's something going on there!

Just to echo the above argument, how many games are there actually out there that feature these kinds of plots? No, not 1990's Nintendo games but modern games? I am not saying this can't be an issue but thinking about the hundreds of games I have played I am not sure how many games actually feature kidnapped women.

Illuyankas, on 09 January 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

When you drive over a woman and make skid marks on her head in Saints Row or GTA (I have totally not done this several time OH MAN LOOK AT THOSE BLOODEFFECTS) it is suddenly a case of misogyny because the male protagonist did something mean to the female NPC. No he didn't. A random person was killed by a random person. The gender means nothing.

This complaint would be erased on both sides by having a female protagonist and rentboys as npcs. The fact that there have been incredibly arguments against this (elsenet, not by you of course) says something.

There are people discriminating against Rentboys now? I AM OUTRAGED! Excuse me while I go make a tumblr post.

Illuyankas, on 09 January 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

I fully agree that the video game industry needs better stories about women and some plots that aren't completely paper thin, but women are not exempt from danger and every game does not have to feature a strong female character. Weak female characters exist. Slutty, dumb, shallow, greedy women do exist, just like there exists violent, domineering, chauvinistic, single minded men. How ever the depiction of one is not an accusation of the entire gender. It is completely up to the artist or producer to decide what kind of story they tell. If you don't like GTA just don't play it.

You understand you're more on the side of 'less female characters' than the side of 'better stories about women', right? Like, you're shouting the better stories side down because you think a few of them have gone too far! If there's anything the whole Sarkeesian/Gamergate mess has shown, is that the better stories, 'gaming is full of misogyny let's see what we can do it to fix it' side? They have a point. They have THE point. Seriously.

Maybe that is how my opinions come of. It's mostly out of frustration with the way I see the bigger sites and bigger personalities approaching the subject. Either they are staunchly on the side of Sarkeesian or they visely keep their mouthes shut. I hate that.

I don't feel that Sarkeesian is wrong in saying the industry could do better but I do feel her academic research is weak and I feel the pedestal she puts women on is preposterous. They dig in and it becomes hard to have any kind of dialogue because, as you mention yourself, it's the craziest people who scream the loudest and get the attention.

Illuyankas, on 09 January 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

I do not think the gender matters. My prior post and this one was a rebuttal of talking about video games from a feministic perspective. We don't need better written women. We need better written video games period.

I agree, that's why when people bring up angles we're uncomfortable with facing we should shun them and continue doing exactly what we were doing befor- OH WAI

Yeah, lets not feature rape in games, lets not feature women getting killed, lets not feature a woman in any other situation than one where she comes out smelling of sunshine and roses, because that's the best way to strengthen our understanding of the sexes and create a productive discourse.

Like I said. Badly written women is not the problem it's the symptom. The disease is bad writing and developers/publishers not taking the story content in their product serious.

This post has been edited by Apt: 10 January 2015 - 02:14 PM

[Aptorian]

Apt digging a hole for himself: Part 2

Studlock, on 09 January 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

Apt response is so full of just straight up uninformed knowledge about feminism I don't really think it worth unpacking. I know this will put me in camp who 'can't handle arguments' or whatever but I suspect to argue both parties have to at least have general knowledge of the topics being discussed. If you're utterly ignorant of basics tenants of social science why would anyone trying to have a serious discussion on the subject take your opinion seriously. Identity is important not because you yourself identify with whatever category (which may be personally important, for myself I identify strongly with my heritage as a form of anti-racism resistance) but because the world outside of you does, to suggest otherwise is objectify wrong as in against scientific consensus on the subject.

I hope you don't blow a gasket or something but this is the discussion forum. The whole point of this place is to say what you think, then somebody makes a counter argument, somebody insults your cultural heritage and then a moderator locks the thread and says he/she is very disappointed with us. That's the Chicago way Malazan way of discussion.

Why don't you point out these basic tenants of social science that I am so ignorant of. I am an educated person. I even read a newspaper now and then. Enlighten me about what core ideals or correct schools of thought it is I have transgressed against. Keep in mind that even within the scientific community, with the exception of some core paradigm's, few people actually agree and spend most of their career trying to prove why their predecessor was an asshole.

Studlock, on 09 January 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

You know what's absurd about Lara Croft almost being raped? It's an abnormal rape, and hence is clearly used not to examine a topic which might legitimately trigger many people's PSTD but used for shock and drama. The majority of rapes happens in the home committed by individuals who the victims knows. Not to mention the over-representation of this kind rape in media warping are our own view of what is rape is (dramatic! Usually committed by strangers!). It's a deliberate spread of misinformation to create cheap thrills. It's rightly criticized.

I am sorry. Would you have preferred if Lara's boss had tried to rape her in the ships cabin and the rest of the game being about her trying to convince the crew she was date raped while the professor says she wanted it? Just to make sure the topic was handled as realisticly and mature as possible?

What is this, fucking tumblr? Trigger warning? The majority of people do not go on expeditions to primitive island. The majority of people do not find themselves shipwrecked and captured by religiously fanatic, violently insane assholes. This wasn't Days of our Lives. It's a survival action game that is extremely violent and gruesome. If you have PTSD I insure you that the impalements, mutilations and explosions will get to you before the almost rape doesn't happen. You swim around in a river of blood and guts at one point for Christs sake.

I am sorry these paragraphs come off so aggressive but the shit you just spouted there is the main problem I have with the feminist/tumblr agenda. Rape is such an important issue to some people that it becomes taboo to even talk about it. Somehow rape or any other kind of potential distress, becomes fetishised to the point that any mention is a trigger. Any discussion is a verbal assault. Any debate that is not about how sorry we are for the victim is almost like being raped all over again.

Fuck that. Lara Croft was almost raped. Then she took a gun and blew the scumbag away. Huzzah. Witness the birth of a female action hero. Leave behind any pretense that this game is not super violent and dark.

If this offends you there is always Friendship is Magic. Although personally I found the second part of the pilot a bit spooky, so there's your Trigger warning.

Studlock, on 09 January 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

You know why's its asburd to demand 'social realism' (which LOL--Jesus Christ) about hookers in a game that is literally a power fantasy? It creates a gross double standard in which all women must be dipicted as realistic' (which of course they aren't, there is an over-representation of stereotypical women in media compared to well drawn individuals) where as the three male main characters get to become angels of deconstruction without comment.

I am assuming this criticism is directed towards GTA5? I thought that game's writing was shitty in many ways so on that we can agree. In fact, in retrospect I found it weird how few women actually feature in the game at all. If anything that should have been the female complain. A lack of women, not how they are depicted. Of the top of my head, except for Michaels wife and daughter, women only appear in this game briefly and in the periphery of the story.

Studlock, on 09 January 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

All in all your entire viewpoint is a uncritical acceptance of the status quo (besides the incredibly vague 'games need better stories!'--which great, thanks for stating a commonly held belief, how does one do so? This is the question at the heart of this debate. Do we rely on old stereotypes that are actively damaging to women, or do we make better female, or better non-white, or better gay characters? Apparently you chose the first opinion) which is great but it's still the status quo which isn't great for a great many people.

Being white, male and Western European, obviously I am going to have few problems with playing the stereotypical video game protagonist, but that does not mean I am adverse to breaking the mold. I do however not believe you have to break it just for the sake of breaking it. If the story does not directly call for it, I don't need to know whether or not Shepherd is gay or straight. It doesn't matter to me if the lead character in Uncharted Raider is Lara Croft or Nathan Drake.

Some would argue that the issue is actually a non-issue. Look at last years publications that either featured a female protagonst or had strong women character:

http://en.wikipedia....in_video_gaming

Assassin's Creed Liberations HD
The Banner Saga
Broken Age Act 1
The Wolf among Us season 1
Infamous Second Son and First Light
Bioshock Infinite: Burial at Sea ep.2
Child of Light
Transistor
Wolfenstein the New Order
Watch Dogs ha ha ha oh man
Shovel Knight
Alien: Isolation
Dragon Age: Inquisition
The Legend of Korra
Bayonetta 2
Lara Croft and the Tempel of Osiris.
Far Cry 4... all though honestly this one is debatable.

Those are just some of the obvious ones that jump out at me on the list. Are there other games that fucking suck at portraying women this year? Hell, yes. But that doesn't mean the industry gives women a raw deal.

Studlock, on 09 January 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

Also many feminists fucking adore Bayonetta, she's clearly expressing her own comfort with her body and sexuality for herself and not 1) a male character, or even worst 2) the male gamers. It's a important character point. Many sex-positive feminist love that. But you must of have missed the week in your Internet School of Feminism class.

I am sorry I am not subscribed to the Bayonetta tumblr fanclub.

This post has been edited by Apt: 10 January 2015 - 03:13 PM

[amphibian]

So you don't understand the reasoning behind trigger warnings?

There's also ways to devalue women that don't have to do with rape. Those are prevalent in video games.

I'll take the recent Ninja Gaiden games and show that I'm not just talking about boobs or forcible assault of women.

The characters of Ayane and Rachel are extremely physically skilled monster hunters. They jump, flip around and destroy giant and vicious monsters. They are powerful and Rachel apparently likes displaying her boobs. That's cool and they look strong at first. Yet when the big bad comes around, their agency is reduced to watching Ryu do it bc they can't. They aren't as good and the subtle message gets sent that only a man can do the really hard stuff.

That sort of "have to wait for the man superhero to come save the day" happens over and over. Add in that usually the male superhero is a white man and you get some cultural prejudices being subtly reinforced.

It goes beyond simple bad writing and becomes a problem the industry needs to address. Bad writing becoming part of a game is probably always going to happen. But we can make it less exclusive bad writing and that's what Sarkeesian and the others are trying to do.

It's a disservice to just chalk to up to bad writing when the specifics can be identified and addressed.

Also you seem to have little concept of just how much women deal with the threat of assault or having their agency eroded in real life. It was a shock when I started seeing it and I've changed my things I did because of it.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 10 January 2015 - 03:25 PM

[LinearPhilosopher]

Glad to see my efforts to stir the pot weren't in vain.

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

BalrogLord, on 09 January 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

However i find it perplexing to a degree how we can talk about characters devoid of their gender when we are discussing them from a either a feminist perspective, or commenting upon the feminist perspective on character(this thread). I mean the thread has feminist within it's title.

Well, that would lead to my issue with feminists in general. Or for that matter any other movement in which a persons qualities or characteristics are the focus of the discussion, like say the gay movement, racial tensions, fiscal or cultural clefts, etc..

In taking up the fight against what ever inequality, the need for attention or understanding of the issue over powers all other needs or view points. In the case of the feminist video gamer it becomes imperative that the female character is not only given her due, but in fact empowered and raised up to some point that becomes unrealistic or ridiculous. Any slight against female is a crime, like Lara Croft almost being raped by a bad person on a bad island or a female NPC being a hooker in a GTA game (because social realism is bad). Any story that does not feature a strong, well written female character is thumb in the eye of the right minded, like AC Unity lacking female co-op skins or hey, Super Mario because Peach is in another castle, etc.

In reality, at least in my opinion, your sex or sexuality, your skin color, your heritage or creed means nothing at all. Your gender does not define you unless you want it to define you.

Where my issue lies with much of Sarkeesian work is the angle. When a woman is kidnapped it is an insult because it implies women are weak and need men to save them. Which is twisting the actual implied story. E.g. A loved one has been taken and the partner is willing to go through hell and high water to bring the loved one back.

When you drive over a woman and make skid marks on her head in Saints Row or GTA (I have totally not done this several time OH MAN LOOK AT THOSE BLOODEFFECTS) it is suddenly a case of misogyny because the male protagonist did something mean to the female NPC. No he didn't. A random person was killed by a random person. The gender means nothing.

I fully agree that the video game industry needs better stories about women and some plots that aren't completely paper thin, but women are not exempt from danger and every game does not have to feature a strong female character. Weak female characters exist. Slutty, dumb, shallow, greedy women do exist, just like there exists violent, domineering, chauvinistic, single minded men. How ever the depiction of one is not an accusation of the entire gender. It is completely up to the artist or producer to decide what kind of story they tell. If you don't like GTA just don't play it.

My point is that when you wrote:

Quote

Does anyone think that it is possible that there exists a way to have fanservice that pays tribute to female form without it being considered exploitative?

I have no idea what you mean.

Rereading it I think I may have misunderstood you completely. I thought your question was "is it possible to create good female video game characters?" but going over it again, it sounds like you're asking if it is possible to create a game about sexy lady bodies with out it being creepy? In which case look no further than Bayonetta. Whom I am sure feminists hate. However Bayonetta is pretty much a female powerfantasy mixed with 2 meter long legs and stripper poses.

(also Dead or Alive: Volleyball is a master piece)

I do not think the gender matters. My prior post and this one was a rebuttal of talking about video games from a feministic perspective. We don't need better written women. We need better written video games period.

In regards to your first point, i like the point you made about it being quite unreasonable to expect that only men are ever the victims of violence, in fact that would be sexist in another fashion. The point i highlighted though, "unless you want it to" basically opens the door to include gender as part of characterisation, much how one's culture could be used to characterise the individual (noble barbarian trope as an example). And i see nothing wrong with this, nor do i see "feminity" for lack of a better word to be used as a characterisation tool in certain contexts. On the reverse end, there are characters who are defined by their masculinity and only by that.

I get the feeling i should have qualified my second question further as there might have been some confusion. There was a website i had stumbled onto some time ago that was a feminist critique of league of legends, specifically it had a blog format where it would critique the latest skins to come out. For the life of me i can't find it.
http://1.bp.blogspot...ma_Splash_4.jpg this received a pass
http://media-titaniu...nc_Splash_4.jpg this one had receive harsh criticism.

And here's a well written blog i found :http://gentlemangustaf.com/2014/03/15/gender-representation-in-league-of-legends/

But sort the point i attempting to bring up, is to what degree is sexualisation permissible or rather, acceptable? I will admit that i foudn the dead or alive franchise rather gratuitous and not to my liking, however there is something to be said about the female form on an aesthetic level. Though not nessarily on the level of "fapping material"> thats what i call porn. Though i'm more than willing to discuss the subject on an academic level i don't think that's a tangent we need to get into.


And now onto d'rek

D, on 09 January 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

BalrogLord, on 09 January 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

A very valid point.I think kino from kino's journey (anime) exemplifies this well. However i find it perplexing to a degree how we can talk about characters devoid of their gender when we are discussing them from a either a feminist perspective, or commenting upon the feminist perspective on character(this thread). I mean the thread has feminist within it's title.

Sure you can. There's no solid definition of feminism anymore, talk about whatever you want! Unlike when 'feminism' was fighting for women's suffrage, there's no discrete law about what movies women are allowed to watch or what video games women are allowed to play, so the term 'feminism' is much more malleable now.

Keeping it to video games, for some people feminism in video games means no female characters should ever be put in the slightest unfavourable position ever again. I don't agree, but that's their opinion and I guess their entitled to it.

For others, feminism in video games is trying to get companies to be more inviting to female players - like how AC Unity decided it would only have male assassins (and gave some really stupid excuses about why they wouldn't). Some 'feminists' are very passionate and shouted a lot and demanded that there be a female assassin. Others were a bit more open-minded and acknowledged that the company doesn't have any obligation to do so, but arranged boycotts of the game to try and show incentive to companies that women sometimes like to roleplay as their own gender. And some were just annoying bratty trolls. But they can all be considered 'feminists' if they want to since it has no specific definition.


Personally, I think it is all about trends and not individual games. One game, or even one series, about Mario rescuing Peach is not a problem. But the overall lack of diversity of roles and continuous repetition of the same plots across the industry is, somewhat similar to what Apt said above... sort of.

More so than that, though, I find more concerning the literal depiction of women versus men in games - that is the way they are visually constructed. Between box art, graphic designs, etc women are extremely frequently designed/drawn in a way that seems primarily designed as visual stimulation whereas this is much less common for male characters (like the Avengers poster debacle where all the men characters are in triumphy hero poses and the one woman on the team is in some convoluted show-off-your-ass pose that makes no sense).

For me, it's not so much about "hey video games industry this is wrong" as much as it is about "hey video games industry did you know your actual audience isn't all 13-year-old boys, maybe you could make some games that don't alienate this huge swath of your audience that is women? And maybe don't be dismissive idiots to the women in your audience because we're sentient people too? (and also it'd be pretty cool if even those games that were for 13y boys were a bit less misogynistic so they wouldn't learn awful lessons from them...?)". Hopefully enough talking about it, blogging about it, etc might eventually get enough people in the industry to realize this.


(All of that is aside from the huge Dox/death-threat trolls issue, which is a different issue more related to gamer/web culture than media companies in many regards)

In regards to trolls, they exist everywhere on the internets, and while all content creators face these things, i do agree that's its disconcerting that sarkessian and others have gotten such a backlash. There's also this whole gamergate thing where i don't have many of the details

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 10 January 2015 - 04:59 PM

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 10 January 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

It's a disservice to just chalk to up to bad writing when the specifics can be identified and addressed.

Is it really? Bad writing is a pretty nebulous term. Isn't a specific trend of badly written characters what this is all about in the end?

The things is, the situation you describe where the secondary characters of a game are capable, but not as capable as the protagonist is a pretty elemental part of many video games. It wouldn't be a very fun game if you just sat around watching your sidekick(s) defeat the boss for you. And it would be discriminatory to say that that situation is never allowed to occur with a male protagonist and female secondary character.

It can and sometimes is done well with that particular gender ratio, and that's fine. But sometimes it is done very poorly where the game does give off misogynistic impressions. Often times the difference just comes down to the "writing" of the game, right?

[worry]

Fun is a relative term. The emphasis on defeating something/someone is another video game entrenchment that isn't necessary for a good game.

As far as bad writing goes, I think the point amph is making is that bad writing isn't the root, it's the trunk. The root (insofar as this particular angle of critique goes) is patriarchy and its social conditionings, and bad writing that stems from this consistently de-emphasizes or eliminates female agency even where it should, rationally, exist (ie the Ninja Gaiden examples he cites). The branches would be the various ways it does this. The leaves would be a specific game's treatment. So, so many leaves are beige with gunfights in strip clubs or women in refrigerators that the leaves of a different color stand out.

[worry]

In other words (and to abruptly switch metaphors), bad writing isn't the illness, it's the symptom (admittedly it's a symptom of a wide variety of illnesses, like fever).

[D'rek]

worry, on 10 January 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

Fun is a relative term. The emphasis on defeating something/someone is another video game entrenchment that isn't necessary for a good game.

As far as bad writing goes, I think the point amph is making is that bad writing isn't the root, it's the trunk. The root (insofar as this particular angle of critique goes) is patriarchy and its social conditionings, and bad writing that stems from this consistently de-emphasizes or eliminates female agency even where it should, rationally, exist (ie the Ninja Gaiden examples he cites). The branches would be the various ways it does this. The leaves would be a specific game's treatment. So, so many leaves are beige with gunfights in strip clubs or women in refrigerators that the leaves of a different color stand out.

Okay, sure, but that's pretty much just semantics. We can take that sophistry further and say that all misogynistic aspects of our modern culture are just leaves stemming from the branches of our civilization's history, which in turn are formed from the trunk that is our DNA, the root being all life on earth, argumentum ad absurdum etc.

I don't expect the video game industry to single-handedly overthrow every facet of our culture, so trying to extend this particular conversation to talking about general social conditioning doesn't really seem all that useful. But just because something is a 'symptom' / 'leaf' doesn't mean it can't be changed without changing it's 'branch'. If the industry has a trend of lots of mainstream AAA games having shit writing and character depictions, that is something that can be changed by itself solely through the actions of the game developers and publishers within the video game industry, without needing to alter the rest of modern culture (though I would certainly hope if this happened it would serve as an example to other mediums that would take some influence from such a change).

[amphibian]

D, on 10 January 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

Is it really? Bad writing is a pretty nebulous term. Isn't a specific trend of badly written characters what this is all about in the end?

I can say that this dinner that you made and I am eating is "bad".

Does that help you as a cook? What if I said you put too much salt in or that the okra got over-cooked? What if I mentioned that the flavor combinations were not good or that the cream used for the sauce was perceptibly off?

Those are specifics. You can use those to not cook a future bad dinner in the same way. That's why Apt's generalizing of this into "badly written characters" isn't helpful. Yes, they're badly written characters, but there's no specific feedback in labeling it that way.

Quote

The things is, the situation you describe where the secondary characters of a game are capable, but not as capable as the protagonist is a pretty elemental part of many video games. It wouldn't be a very fun game if you just sat around watching your sidekick(s) defeat the boss for you. And it would be discriminatory to say that that situation is never allowed to occur with a male protagonist and female secondary character.

It can and sometimes is done well with that particular gender ratio, and that's fine. But sometimes it is done very poorly where the game does give off misogynistic impressions. Often times the difference just comes down to the "writing" of the game, right?

What about giving Ayane and Rachel the Prime Minister of the Holy Vigoorian Empire to fight while Ryu battles the Emperor?

Yes, the primacy of the protagonist is a story feature that makes great sense for video games - but it doesn't mean that the secondary characters - particularly the female ones - have to stand around and/or be kidnapped.

Look at how Zelda was used as Sheik in Ocarina of Time? Yeah, she's the princess to be rescued, but she had agency throughout the entire game and assisted the person who had the capabilities/protagonist drive to defeat the ultimate big bad.

Addressing specifics matter. It's why critiques that get specific are usually much more helpful than "This is bad." Video games don't have to change the world's problems. But it'd be awesome if they stopped making them worse.

[amphibian]

Obviously, a crank critique is bad, but when you have many, many representatives from a particular group saying "Hey... we're not being treated right by these products.", the proper reaction isn't to deny that it exists or say that the problem is that everyone is getting ill-treated.

It's the same kind of logic as the people who keep saying "Well, what about racism about whites?" when people talk about the problems of that particular issue. It's not helpful and serves to derail the issue because the person who sticks to doing that isn't contributing and isn't learning about why they are wrong.

A cook needs to pay attention to feedback. Yeah, the outliers from the wackos and the super nit-picky can usually be tossed out, but if the plates are coming back with the same items uneaten or certain dishes never get ordered, then something's going on that needs to be addressed.

[worry]

I don't believe it's semantics at all. Video games (and their creators) are a product of culture at large, not the other way around (though I'm not dismissing the feedback loop). It's for that very reason that video games/pop culture in general as one set of foci to examine culture at large is useful. It's the exact same reason we study literature in the context of time, place, and authorship, and not just whether it has "good" or "bad" writing. I'd also say the Human History <------- DNA link you suggest makes a huge leap over culture w/o even looking down.

[Aptorian]

Nightline segment covering Sarkeesian and the gamergate debacle.

I think it remained objective and gave both sides of the argument a chance to give their insight. There's a bigger focus on Sarkeesian of course but she is also sort of the news story.

[worry]

A good summation of what many refer to as the "Red Pill Right". It's not exclusive to GamerGaters, but it includes them (in overlap with neoreactionaries, PUAs, MRAs, even the Dark Enlightenment people). They have something integral in common: http://boingboing.ne...to-the-red.html

[Gnaw]

worry, on 30 January 2015 - 12:45 AM, said:

A good summation of what many refer to as the "Red Pill Right". It's not exclusive to GamerGaters, but it includes them (in overlap with neoreactionaries, PUAs, MRAs, even the Dark Enlightenment people). They have something integral in common: http://boingboing.ne...to-the-red.html

gawd that shit is depressing

[Studlock]

worry, on 30 January 2015 - 12:45 AM, said:

A good summation of what many refer to as the "Red Pill Right". It's not exclusive to GamerGaters, but it includes them (in overlap with neoreactionaries, PUAs, MRAs, even the Dark Enlightenment people). They have something integral in common: http://boingboing.ne...to-the-red.html

I'm so tired of these people. Let's call them what they are--neofascists and this isn't an attack. Many of there overlapping beliefs concur with fascist beliefs. Anti-leftwinger, scientism, racism, pro-capitalism, perceived objectivity when apply very subjective views and anger to the situation, hell they even reject traditional right-wing values in favour of progressive ideas just as many fascist did. I'm honestly terrified when someone finally utilizes these underlining beliefs to do something other than be internet tough guys.

[Aptorian]

Interesting to see an article that sums up the red pill community. I've come across it on Reddit several times and it always seemed like a strange community.

However I find it sort of worrying that the article is able to simply sweep every "opposing sentiment" in under a red pill label. Is there an overlap between GamerGate and Red Pill? Probably. There's probably also an overlap between GamerGate and people who like cottage cheese. In fact I bet people who identify as Red Pill also like cottage cheese. The real issue here is apparent, we need to identify cottage cheese users and shame them.

I am being facetious but I do not like the implication that if you believe in the GamerGate movement and if you believe in men's rights, then you can suddenly be labelled as RedPill and lets make a jump in logic here, now you are a fascist, misogynist, libertarian, racist, rape enabling sociopath.

There is a tendency in critical thinking where you put a label on something to easier quantity and address an issue. You risk making an umbrella that overlaps everything and can then easily be dismissed, in this case: Gamer Gate = Litterally worse than Hitler.

Gamer Gate does address real issues within the industry. Men's rights advocates do address real injustices that men face.

[Maark Abbott]

I don't like cottage cheese.

[worry]

Apt, on 30 January 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

Gamer Gate does address real issues within the industry. Men's rights advocates do address real injustices that men face.

No it doesn't, and no they don't. These are hate/abuse movements with very transparent costumes.

Apt, on 30 January 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

However I find it sort of worrying that the article is able to simply sweep every "opposing sentiment" in under a red pill label.

Opposing sentiment to what? How are you bounding "every"? These are already birds of a feather that flock together -- the article didn't just imagine this up. Davis Aurini is a white pride advocate, and Jordan Owen is an MRA...these are the men behind The Sarkeesian Effect. GG's biggest heroes include the misogynist, racist vloggers Thunderf00t, MundaneMatt, and TotalBiscuit; that reporter Milo from Breitbart (if you want to check off conspiracy theorists), or devout anti-feminist writer/pundit Christina Sommers; rooshv and Mike Cernovich who are PUAs and are both rape apologists; and that 8chan owner who writes pro-eugenics screeds for that Stormfront newsletter. These guys have more in common than what they eat: just for example, the 8chan dude consulted with Mike C (a lawyer) after 8chan's child porn habit started getting outside attention. If you want to see what GG has in common with conspiracy theorists, here's just one recent example: https://storify.com/...n-honest-answer This is in no way comprehensive but just a small example of the ingredients being right there, at the core and not the periphery.

I'm not saying they all interact constantly, but they are sibling (at furthest, cousin) ideologies, and any degree of paying attention evidences cross-group interests and activities. It didn't require any tremendous leap.