[King Lear]

You, Sombra.

When radfem groups start appearing on Hatewatch then maybe I'll give credence to the idea that the damage radfems do is any way equitable to so called Men's Rights Activists.

[Tsundoku]

King Lear, on 14 April 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

You, Sombra.

When radfem groups start appearing on Hatewatch then maybe I'll give credence to the idea that the damage radfems do is any way equitable to so called Men's Rights Activists.

But it's OK to call for the sterilisation of men? Half the shit I've seen on Jezebel and other similar sites (yes, I've been there, and recoiled in horror) qualifies as hate speech. OK, slight exaggeration, but it's definitely there.

EDIT: an example - I can't recall the details but those Swedish feminazis who did the "funny" video about shooting a guy in the head, for starters.

It's just the good old bell curve of human behaviour. Some good, some bad, a lot in between.

But then again, it's only men who are sexist, after all.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 14 April 2013 - 11:13 AM

[King Lear]

Nooope, there's no sexism in sexism. The article you linked shows that quite well.

[TRIGGER WARNING FOR PRETTY MUCH EVERY LINK FOLLOWING}

There is some stuff that MRA's come up with that is unrealistic and often amusing, which I'd put on the same level as most of the radfem stuff I've But yeah, calls for sterilisation of all men (which would never actually happen and you know it) > advocating violence against women, children and anyone who disagrees with them, which actually happens in real life. (Not to mention the harassment campaigns over the internet which involved sustained verbal abuse, threats of violence and posting or attempting to acquire personal information about individuals)

My heart really bleeds for your average men's rights activist whose life has been made so difficult as a result of feminism. Being misunderstood. How rough it is to be a pedophile. The evil of single mothers. Chivalry yay or nay? Women in the workplace. Women in the army/Women not being in the army. Women having sex with people they want to have sex with. Slutty clothes. Whores. State imposed control via vaginas. Oh god the money-grabbing vaginas (I am resisting the urge to draw a picture of a money grabbing vagina in paint right now).

The horror. I don't know how they cope.

There are definitely systemic problems for men which do require change (such as parental custody rights, which are skewed towards women not just because they think they are better at everything than men, but because women have disproportionate burden of care for children (which is an imposition place on them by society) and likewise are believed to be "better" at parenting than men (likewise historical societal belief, women belong in the kitchen and having babies blah blah blah) that is actually changing as more men become stay-at-home dads, and custodial cases that go to court have a 50/50 outcome in terms of awarding parental custody to either parent); other problems include the prevalence of prison rape and low reporting rates for male survivor of abuse and rape, and high suicide rates among men (again generally considered to be as a result of a societal expectation that men do not talk about their feelings, so depression can be more fatal to men than women even though women are more likely to suffer from it (again results possibly skewed by under-reporting); not to mention issues that affect homosexual, trans, minority/men of colour), but they are not caused by feminism. MRAs, for the most part don't really seem to care about these issues (I wanted more links here because I know I've read more on the subject, but I'm failing at google. Boo).

Oh yeah, and I happen to think Jezebal is with some exceptions mostly shithouse, just for the record. Though I doubt it's for the same reasons you do.

Note: Most of my MRA-based links are not directly to the source, although my links do link the source if anyone wants to double check it. I haven't used to original sources because a. I want to minimise their traffic; b. David Futrelle makes it easy for me by having a lot of stuff in one place; and c. trawling through piles of comments about how people think I'm a money-grabbing whore because I happen to own a vagina and consider myself to be an individual human being with actual human rights is a bit sickening.
I will also no longer be responding to this topic on this thread as it is a massive derail, but if anyone wants to keep discussing this subject, feel free to make a new thread or PM/email me.

This post has been edited by King Lear: 14 April 2013 - 12:32 PM

[MTS]

Ugh, I agree with Illy, that letter is awful, just a bunch of unsubstantiated women-hating garbage. And nobody is saying it's ok to call for the sterilisation of men, radfems are just the incredibly vocal minority that mainstream cultural thought largely ignores (like fundamentalist Christians giving Christianity a bad name).

Anyway, I think the whole 'holy crap one day she can just up and leave and take my kids and half my stuff' attitude just bizarre. While I don't think family law is entirely equitable, to suggest that the majority of women would at a moment's notice just leave and gladly mooch off men for the rest of their lives is a searing indictment of women that in general I don't think they deserve. There's certainly room for debate on the equal ownership issue, its applicability in family law and its general relevance in an age of increased job opportunities for women, but framing this as 'the way things are set up for western men these days' and a grave injustice that entirely favours women is I don't think entirely accurate.

As an aside, anybody have any idea what the author meant by the Patriarchy giving women a better deal than men, other than this particular issue? Because I just can't see any other way that's true.

[Tsundoku]

"Penis bad, vagina good."

OK, got it now.



The news story was an opinion. So was the letter. They tried to express opinions explaining perhaps why some people have the perceptions they have these days. It wasn't complete, or scientific, it was just a little attempt at a bit of "hey well maybe this bit here is because/one reason for/etc..." I thought it was at least interesting and expressed a point of view I can agree with in part. I also made some other points people completely ignored, about isolationism in a connected world and even the bell curve of human behaviour. But no, I get this:

"Jesus fucking Christ, Sombra, that article is a reeking mass of dribbling excrement. I'm frankly embarassed for you having a positive opinion on it.

And holy shit the news piece is fucking terrible too. It's biotruths and 'women should stick to what they're good at, raising our kids' and 'fuck having your own life, go marry a rich dude' and aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh it's awful, MRAs and the MRA movement are awful "

Followed by the bandwagon.

I honestly believe the above constitutes a personal attack. It's tone is patronising and inflammatory. But at least you spared me the CAPITALISATIONS OF DOOM!!!

I thought the cutest touch though was to link - however tenuously - to paedophila. Nice. Like about how I could link any of you obvious foaming-at-the-mouth lefties with Stalin. Make sense? It's about the same degree of separation. And that's how it felt.

Seriously, some of you people need to take a chill pill.

But for me, I think I'll leave you all to your lattes and smug self-righteous circle-jerk. I'll bet you all hit "dislike" for Kony 2012 and thought you made a difference as well, didn't you?

Yes, THAT was patronising. Deal with it.

------------------------------

@Silencer
If you want to hit me with an appropriate ban ... it was worth it.

[Assail]

Sombra, on 15 April 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

"Penis bad, vagina good."

OK, got it now.



The news story was an opinion. So was the letter. They tried to express opinions explaining perhaps why some people have the perceptions they have these days. It wasn't complete, or scientific, it was just a little attempt at a bit of "hey well maybe this bit here is because/one reason for/etc..." I thought it was at least interesting and expressed a point of view I can agree with in part. I also made some other points people completely ignored, about isolationism in a connected world and even the bell curve of human behaviour. But no, I get this:

"Jesus fucking Christ, Sombra, that article is a reeking mass of dribbling excrement. I'm frankly embarassed for you having a positive opinion on it.

And holy shit the news piece is fucking terrible too. It's biotruths and 'women should stick to what they're good at, raising our kids' and 'fuck having your own life, go marry a rich dude' and aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh it's awful, MRAs and the MRA movement are awful "

Followed by the bandwagon.

I honestly believe the above constitutes a personal attack. It's tone is patronising and inflammatory. But at least you spared me the CAPITALISATIONS OF DOOM!!!

I thought the cutest touch though was to link - however tenuously - to paedophila. Nice. Like about how I could link any of you obvious foaming-at-the-mouth lefties with Stalin. Make sense? It's about the same degree of separation. And that's how it felt.

Seriously, some of you people need to take a chill pill.

But for me, I think I'll leave you all to your lattes and smug self-righteous circle-jerk. I'll bet you all hit "dislike" for Kony 2012 and thought you made a difference as well, didn't you?

Yes, THAT was patronising. Deal with it.

------------------------------

@Silencer
If you want to hit me with an appropriate ban ... it was worth it.

Nothing to add apart from "Bravo, your reply was fucking awesome".

<3

[MTS]

Sombra, on 15 April 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

"Penis bad, vagina good."

OK, got it now.

That's not what she was saying and you know it, nor was she linking you specifically to paedophilia.

Quote

The news story was an opinion. So was the letter. They tried to express opinions explaining perhaps why some people have the perceptions they have these days. It wasn't complete, or scientific, it was just a little attempt at a bit of "hey well maybe this bit here is because/one reason for/etc..." I thought it was at least interesting and expressed a point of view I can agree with in part. I also made some other points people completely ignored, about isolationism in a connected world and even the bell curve of human behaviour.

Fox News is opinion but that doesn't mean it is necessarily a good one, and those are usually based on facts. I mean, the letter calls government employees useless and mostly female, says women get ahead using 'affirmative action' and the threat of sexual harrassment lawsuits, as well as getting paid the same for doing less work. It denigrates women's service in the military, suggesting they can only serve because the standards have been lowered, and that women only see men as providers and fantasy sex objects. Putting aside the bile radical feminists come out with, I don't see how calling the majority of women lazy, entitled, money-grubbing whores is either accurate or helpful in fostering a productive discussion about the problems of sexism in our society (and that's what the letter did).

I at least didn't respond to your other points because they weren't the parts I found most objectionable. Yes the growing isolationism of individuals in society could in fact be a factor of why divorce rates are going up, but entirely blaming women's sexual liberation for the death of chivalry, romance and meaningful relationships is just wrong. Men have just as much responsibility in perpetuating the ideal of the hook-up culture, as does popular culture glorifying sex and the dogged pursuit of losing one's virginity.

By the way, point to the part where I personally attacked you, or was less than civil towards you specifically. My attention was directed at the sources you provided and I objected to the fact they were well-expressed, so please don't call me a frothing-at-the-mouth leftie.

[Illuyankas]

Sombra, on 15 April 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

"Penis bad, vagina good."

OK, got it now.



The news story was an opinion. So was the letter. They tried to express opinions explaining perhaps why some people have the perceptions they have these days. It wasn't complete, or scientific, it was just a little attempt at a bit of "hey well maybe this bit here is because/one reason for/etc..." I thought it was at least interesting and expressed a point of view I can agree with in part. I also made some other points people completely ignored, about isolationism in a connected world and even the bell curve of human behaviour. But no, I get this:

"Jesus fucking Christ, Sombra, that article is a reeking mass of dribbling excrement. I'm frankly embarassed for you having a positive opinion on it.

And holy shit the news piece is fucking terrible too. It's biotruths and 'women should stick to what they're good at, raising our kids' and 'fuck having your own life, go marry a rich dude' and aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh it's awful, MRAs and the MRA movement are awful "

Followed by the bandwagon.

I honestly believe the above constitutes a personal attack. It's tone is patronising and inflammatory. But at least you spared me the CAPITALISATIONS OF DOOM!!!

I thought the cutest touch though was to link - however tenuously - to paedophila. Nice. Like about how I could link any of you obvious foaming-at-the-mouth lefties with Stalin. Make sense? It's about the same degree of separation. And that's how it felt.

Seriously, some of you people need to take a chill pill.

But for me, I think I'll leave you all to your lattes and smug self-righteous circle-jerk. I'll bet you all hit "dislike" for Kony 2012 and thought you made a difference as well, didn't you?

Yes, THAT was patronising. Deal with it.

------------------------------

@Silencer
If you want to hit me with an appropriate ban ... it was worth it.

OK, let's look more closely at the opinions you agree with.

Quote

A letter to a future daughter-in-law, possibly my own:

A few years from now you’re probably going to want to marry my son. Perhaps you already do; he’s kind of hot (if I’m allowed to notice) and his potential is quite obvious, if I do say so myself. He’s only twenty, handsome and well built, and when he lets is hair grow long it’s thick and wavy. He has his father’s beautiful eyes, and my dimples look much better on him than they ever looked on me. Also, he’s in the military; he has finished his deployment and doesn’t expect to go overseas again, so he’s now preparing to start earning college credits. I don’t hover so I’m not certain, but he’s probably going to major in engineering. Or possibly actuarial science. He surfs, rides a motorcycle and a mountain bike, and he maintains a classic car. He’s essentially a decent guy; pretty much everyone likes him or loves him, and respects him. Girls hit on him regularly.

I’ll be surprised if he ever marries though. You see, his plan is to wait until he’s at least thirty, and therefore he will spend the next decade meeting, dating, working with, and probably sleeping with, the product of sixty years of American feminism. I’m pretty sure he won’t find many women worth considering for marriage.

How about we look at it from his perspective, m’kay? Here’s what he sees:

Half of you have been raised without your fathers, yet only a few of your fathers deserved to be kicked out of your lives. You were raised by the women who kicked your fathers out, and perhaps by a string of step-dads and “uncles.” Those women, your mothers, taught you their values by example. Not an auspicious start. Most of the rest of you were raised by fathers who knew damn well that if they displeased your mothers, they too could be kicked out of your lives according to your mothers’ whims. They knew full well who had the real power in the family; they quietly accepted that “mother knows best.”

You were raised in a culture that permits, even encourages, women and girls to always push for more; not necessarily to do more or earn more, but to demand more and to expect more. You were punished far less severely for your transgressions than were your male peers. Indeed your female peers egged you on to be even naughtier, and to be defiant about it. It’s Grrrl Power, after all! The boys of your acquaintance were expected to give in to your shenanigans and your shit tests, and those who didn’t were labelled “problem children” and medicated. Usually, a boy’s best bet was to shut up and grovel, and maybe win your approval. They weren’t allowed to go around offending the Special Snowflakes, were they?

You were raised in a Disney Princess Culture, where every girl is entitled to her Prince Charming. And if she can’t find one, she has the Grrrl Power to kiss any old frog and transform him into a Prince. You were raised to be a slut, at least through your twenties. Go to college. Establish a career. Don’t get married until your late twenties or early thirties, but DO NOT under any circumstances, repress your sexuality. Your foremothers fought hard for your right to be promiscuous with no consequences; don’t you dare let their efforts go to waste.

And since you’re not looking for a husband, there’s no need to sleep with only “good” men, is there? Cuz badboyz r hawt! And nice guys are boring. And hell, you have plenty of time to ride the best cocks you can find – thanks to modern medicine, you can get pregnant after menopause if you want, so there’s no hurry. You are expected to waste your youth and your beauty on hot guys who treat you like shit, then give your leftovers to the guy you’ll promise to love, honor and cherish for the rest of your life. Wow! How lucky is he!

My son looks around and he sees bitchy, arrogant, malicious women. He sees spoiled greedy women. He sees financially irresponsible women. He sees lazy, undisciplined women. (Yes, even in the military; they had to lower the standards so more women could “serve.”) He sees overweight women wearing unflattering clothes that display muffin tops and rolls of fat, who drool over his biceps while telling him that “looks shouldn’t matter.”

He sees slutty women who dress to attract men, sleep with the hot ones, and denigrate the less attractive ones by calling them “creepy.” He sees “competitive” professional women whose primary tools for getting ahead are affirmative action and the unspoken threat of sexual harassment lawsuits. He sees demanding women who expect men to bow and scrape for the privilege of a smile. He sees utterly irrational women whose “self esteem” is obscenely disproportionate to their proven worth. He sees entitled women who expect romantic dates and expensive gifts, yet have absolutely nothing of value to contribute to a relationship. He sees women who flirt with their hopeful, geeky JustFriends, juuuust barely enough to keep them on a string while simultaneously panting after Alpha Hotteies, then run crying back to those JustFriends after being pumped and dumped by said Hotties. “Oh, why can’t more men be nice like you?” (Answer: if they were, no woman would fuck them.)

Look around you, ladies. You see the very same women, don’t you? Many of you are these women. You think this is normal and acceptable because “everybody does it.” It’s not.

There’s something you should know about my son and his peers. They’re not gay, they’re not lazy, they’re not stupid, they’re not unambitious, and they’re not weak. They’ve merely figured you out. They know that you don’t give a rat’s ass about them, and that you see them as nothing but providers and fantasy sex objects. They are wise to the game and they’re done playing by your rules.

They have the same job titles as you and they take home the same pay, but they work longer hours and they do harder work; they know that their productivity is why employers can afford to hire you to sit a desk and shuffle papers. They know that if two drunk people have sex and both regret it the next morning, only one of them is a rapist. They know that “My Body/My Choice” actually means “My/Body/My Choice/Your Wallet.” They know that the minute they sign a marriage license, everything they own is yours, but nothing you own is theirs (except your debts) and you can walk away with cash and prizes, at any time, for any reason. Or for no reason at all.

They’re calling Bullshit.

A few years from now, you’ll begin asking yourself, “Where have all the good men gone?” You’ll look down your noses at all those guys playing video games and living like frat boys in cheap apartments, and you’ll just know that they could be “doing so much better for themselves,” if only they would “Man Up.” You’ll shake your heads in wonder at their “immaturity,” or their “wasted potential.” Here’s a little secret. Yes, a few men are immature or weak; they’ve had the masculinity abused or medicated out of them, mostly by their single mothers and grandmothers. But most of them?

They no longer give a rat’s ass about you.

That’s right. They don’t need to work hard and earn a good living. They have no intention of fathering and supporting any children, and no desire whatsoever to earn your approval. You go buy your own four-bedroom colonial in just the right subdivision. That’s what your Grrrl Power is for, isn’t it? So you don’t need a man? Many of these men will even go so far as to quit their jobs as soon as they begin to “earn a good living.” They don’t want to make enough money to pay taxes. They don’t want to pay the salaries of millions of useless (and mostly female) government employees, and they don’t want to finance the personal choices of “Empowered Women.”

Those Empowered Women can buy their own damn birth control. These men refuse to feed your Beast. And you, and your government, and your church, can’t cajole them or shame them into giving a shit. Men are dropping out, ladies. Chivalry has died of blunt force trauma, in a beatdown administered by Grrrl Power. Your mothers, your grandmothers, your schools, your family courts, your sociology professors, have spent the last two generations telling men that the are unnecessary and unwelcome. And now they’re leaving. (Although they’ll be glad to fuck you while you’re young and hot, since you’re offering. Aaaaand then they’ll move on to younger and hotter sluts. Why the hell not? It’s free.)

This is the gift that feminism has given to you: Independence. Scary, lonely, bitter, potentially impoverished Independence. For yourselves and any children you may have. Most of you won’t blame feminism though; you’ll blame Male Privilege (which doesn’t exist.) You’ll blame The Patriarchy (which always gave women a better deal than it gave men.) You will stamp your feet, flip your hair, and blame anything except the single cultural force that has devoted itself to suppressing and controlling masculinity. And you’ll go home alone every night to your cats, your Facebook Friends, and your vibrators. I sure hope that’s what you want.

Sincerely,

A Mom.

Hoo boy! Just look at all that!

Quote

Half of you have been raised without your fathers, yet only a few of your fathers deserved to be kicked out of your lives. You were raised by the women who kicked your fathers out, and perhaps by a string of step-dads and “uncles.” Those women, your mothers, taught you their values by example. Not an auspicious start. Most of the rest of you were raised by fathers who knew damn well that if they displeased your mothers, they too could be kicked out of your lives according to your mothers’ whims. They knew full well who had the real power in the family; they quietly accepted that “mother knows best.”

All relationships with kids that end are the fault of the mother! Women are never beaten by their partners or finally get fed up of all the abuse or get cheated on! Single mums can never remarry or find love again and are promiscious, since having sex as often as men is a bad thing and not a fucking choice they are completely allowed to make without some smug knowitall telling them they can't! Women aren't disportionately killed by guys! I'm sure the statistics will back me up here in my meaningless bullshitting!

Quote

You were raised in a Disney Princess Culture, where every girl is entitled to her Prince Charming. And if she can’t find one, she has the Grrrl Power to kiss any old frog and transform him into a Prince. You were raised to be a slut, at least through your twenties. Go to college. Establish a career. Don’t get married until your late twenties or early thirties, but DO NOT under any circumstances, repress your sexuality. Your foremothers fought hard for your right to be promiscuous with no consequences; don’t you dare let their efforts go to waste.

The best way to reach out to my target audience of women: Call them sluts! SLUTTY SLUT SLUTSLUTS yes this will make them think I have valid points! Repression is good! Only dudes get free rides (ho ho) when it comes to experimenting or just having fucking normal relationships, women get picked pick their future husband having never touched another male in their lives! Yes, to hell with those foremothers! It's not like women really needed the vote or to be considered above cattle or anything!

Quote

And since you’re not looking for a husband, there’s no need to sleep with only “good” men, is there? Cuz badboyz r hawt! And nice guys are boring. And hell, you have plenty of time to ride the best cocks you can find – thanks to modern medicine, you can get pregnant after menopause if you want, so there’s no hurry. You are expected to waste your youth and your beauty on hot guys who treat you like shit, then give your leftovers to the guy you’ll promise to love, honor and cherish for the rest of your life. Wow! How lucky is he!

Yes, more proof that love is a zero-sum game and that you can somehow run out of affection like it's a fucking reservoir! God forbid that casual sex be regarded on anywhere near the same for both genders! Also 'bad boys' and 'good men' exist but there's only one kind of woman, the slut! Try thinking with your brain and not your vagina, sluts!

Quote

My son looks around and he sees bitchy, arrogant, malicious women. He sees spoiled greedy women. He sees financially irresponsible women. He sees lazy, undisciplined women. (Yes, even in the military; they had to lower the standards so more women could “serve.”) He sees overweight women wearing unflattering clothes that display muffin tops and rolls of fat, who drool over his biceps while telling him that “looks shouldn’t matter.”

Hahaha, yes, this is totally all everyone else's fault for what he sees and not an indemic problem he has! Also bitchy, arrogant, malicious, spoiled, greedy, financially irresponsible, lazy, undisciplined (especially in the military, just look at all those women being raped and not reporting it to their commanding officer! especially when he's the rapist) or overweight men don't exist!

Quote

He sees slutty women who dress to attract men, sleep with the hot ones, and denigrate the less attractive ones by calling them “creepy.” He sees “competitive” professional women whose primary tools for getting ahead are affirmative action and the unspoken threat of sexual harassment lawsuits. He sees demanding women who expect men to bow and scrape for the privilege of a smile. He sees utterly irrational women whose “self esteem” is obscenely disproportionate to their proven worth. He sees entitled women who expect romantic dates and expensive gifts, yet have absolutely nothing of value to contribute to a relationship. He sees women who flirt with their hopeful, geeky JustFriends, juuuust barely enough to keep them on a string while simultaneously panting after Alpha Hotteies, then run crying back to those JustFriends after being pumped and dumped by said Hotties. “Oh, why can’t more men be nice like you?” (Answer: if they were, no woman would fuck them.)

More, more! Fuck those women, who dress in the way we told them to dress then get all hoity toity when we expect them to fuck us! Why wouldn't they want to sleep with me when I do, especially after I spent the last half hour calling them and all their fellow sexhavers dirty whores? Women should sleep with all men who express an interest, hot or not (only the hot women I'm attracted to though, no fatties allowed)! Demanding, irrational and entitled! All traits women AND men have! See, totally equal! and essentially non-existent Also the friend zone totally exists, and is genuinely a thing that not-creepy dudes who do understand that a woman is not interested in them are left to reside in limbo to because being friends with a woman is horrendous and impossible cause we just can't help hitting on anything with a vagina, can we lads? Always talking about makeup and hairdos and shit while we're just trying to stare at their tits, it's intolerable! The important thing to realise is that these aren't just a tiny and mostly fictional category of women who exist mostly in unsupported anecdotes and shitty jokes, but the vast majority of modern women including every girl on this board, statistically! So ignore all the dudes you're attracted to, ladies, and fling those fucking limbs open for the 'creepy' ones who will totally respect you if you just give them a chance!

Quote

Look around you, ladies. You see the very same women, don’t you? Many of you are these women. You think this is normal and acceptable because “everybody does it.” It’s not.

There’s something you should know about my son and his peers. They’re not gay, they’re not lazy, they’re not stupid, they’re not unambitious, and they’re not weak. They’ve merely figured you out. They know that you don’t give a rat’s ass about them, and that you see them as nothing but providers and fantasy sex objects. They are wise to the game and they’re done playing by your rules.

(wait, is this still the 'anti-women' rant? I seem to have notes from the 'stereotypes about men' p- oh there we go)

Quote

They have the same job titles as you and they take home the same pay, but they work longer hours and they do harder work; they know that their productivity is why employers can afford to hire you to sit a desk and shuffle papers. They know that if two drunk people have sex and both regret it the next morning, only one of them is a rapist. They know that “My Body/My Choice” actually means “My/Body/My Choice/Your Wallet.” They know that the minute they sign a marriage license, everything they own is yours, but nothing you own is theirs (except your debts) and you can walk away with cash and prizes, at any time, for any reason. Or for no reason at all.

Yes men are paid EXACTLY THE SAME for MORE WORK which is a thing that statistics back up and not the opposite in real life! Women only work as receptionists because they're too lazy for real jobs! Sure, 1 in 3 women get raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetimes but this niche case proves that all women are liars! And also prostitutes who'll whore themselves for your cash, gents! And every single one is literally out to entice you into a contract then leave you the instant they get what they want, your funds, because women are also thieves! Irrational thieves, who will split from their partner and lose if the father actually fights it steal your precious kids they risked their own lives to bring into this world and all your cash, all of it cause the judges and lawyers of the world are in on it too, and this happens EVERY TIME!

Quote

They’re calling Bullshit.

Not the only one!

Quote

A few years from now, you’ll begin asking yourself, “Where have all the good men gone?” You’ll look down your noses at all those guys playing video games and living like frat boys in cheap apartments, and you’ll just know that they could be “doing so much better for themselves,” if only they would “Man Up.” You’ll shake your heads in wonder at their “immaturity,” or their “wasted potential.” Here’s a little secret. Yes, a few men are immature or weak; they’ve had the masculinity abused or medicated out of them, mostly by their single mothers and grandmothers. But most of them?

They no longer give a rat’s ass about you.

Haha, yes, it's true! If you don't think all women are whores, you've been abused! By a woman! Particularly single mothers, cause women are incapable of raising a child without A MAN around! Clearly this will make you think women are the bee's knee's in every situation after having your masculinity sucked out of you like a leech! (women, leeches, see what I did there)

Quote

That’s right. They don’t need to work hard and earn a good living. They have no intention of fathering and supporting any children, and no desire whatsoever to earn your approval. You go buy your own four-bedroom colonial in just the right subdivision. That’s what your Grrrl Power is for, isn’t it? So you don’t need a man? Many of these men will even go so far as to quit their jobs as soon as they begin to “earn a good living.” They don’t want to make enough money to pay taxes. They don’t want to pay the salaries of millions of useless (and mostly female) government employees, and they don’t want to finance the personal choices of “Empowered Women.”

And, uh, we went all libertarian or something here, I don't know. Fuck government! Fuck clean water, and roads, and jobs! Especially jobs for women, fuck that double hard I guess. I don't know, going Galt is just distracting from the point.

Quote

Those Empowered Women can buy their own damn birth control. These men refuse to feed your Beast. And you, and your government, and your church, can’t cajole them or shame them into giving a shit. Men are dropping out, ladies. Chivalry has died of blunt force trauma, in a beatdown administered by Grrrl Power. Your mothers, your grandmothers, your schools, your family courts, your sociology professors, have spent the last two generations telling men that the are unnecessary and unwelcome. And now they’re leaving. (Although they’ll be glad to fuck you while you’re young and hot, since you’re offering. Aaaaand then they’ll move on to younger and hotter sluts. Why the hell not? It’s free.)

YES! No more free birth control! For ladies, obviously I'd have some since I'm having sex with sluts repeatedly, apparently! After all, men should be solely responsible for it and women shouldn't have to, to make it easier to stop them cheating which women are known to do! YES! Men aren't still the overwhelming force in government, churches aren't still fighting to have women lose all rights to their own bodies! RIP chivalry, since women need protecting in a more overtly patronising way! Men are leaving! For somewhere! Without half of society including their families because the gap in rights and expectations between and THE SLUTS are narrowing!

Quote

This is the gift that feminism has given to you: Independence. Scary, lonely, bitter, potentially impoverished Independence. For yourselves and any children you may have. Most of you won’t blame feminism though; you’ll blame Male Privilege (which doesn’t exist.) You’ll blame The Patriarchy (which always gave women a better deal than it gave men.) You will stamp your feet, flip your hair, and blame anything except the single cultural force that has devoted itself to suppressing and controlling masculinity. And you’ll go home alone every night to your cats, your Facebook Friends, and your vibrators. I sure hope that’s what you want.

Fuck independence! Females should be adhered to guys at all times! The concepts of 'male privilege' or 'the patriarchy' don't exist, guys are exactly as likely to be paid exactly the same and not more as women, be attacked and raped in the home, be the attacker and get away with it cause the victim is afraid to go to the authorities to be humilatingly looked over by the police and then told they asked for it or have constant abuse from friends of the accused and the press saying it was consensual and they just liked it rough or they were drunk so it was ok or they were asking for it in those jogging pants and sweater, exactly as likely to be passed over for promotion or expected to blow the boss - oh sorry, perform oral sex on the boss, it could always be a woman - to not get fired, and men can't even think this unless they're gender traitors and softies and pussies and whatever else, cause society is known for being fair and just at all times and women are exactly equal, if not more equal than men and this is a thing that isn't bullshit!

Quote

Sincerely,

A Mom.

Wait, a female wrote this!? GET OUT

----

It is a stupid article. If you think any of the dissent you've seen is 'penis bad, vagina good' rather than 'stop stomping on the lady's face, mister' then you're being wilfully dense WHICH IS THE CLOSEST I'VE COME TO AIMING A COMMENT AT YOU Sombra, really now it's like you're as highly strung and flighty as a dame

Also the slacktivism thing is woefully pathetic, but if you want personal attacks you can get one for suggesting I, Lord British, drink coffee you smug Aussie b[PRE-EMPTIVE SILENCER EDIT]

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 15 April 2013 - 12:17 PM

[amphibian]

To connect this off-shoot back into the main discussion, it's really hard for the beneficiaries of institutional prejudice to come to terms with their privilege and to do so calmly and rationally.

It happens with white privilege - something I have to be aware of despite being half Asian and not raised fully in the US - and it happens with male privilege as well (along with other topics). There are all sorts of things that are invisible and unproportionately nice for the beneficiary that they never really think about or realize why it's something worth pointing out.

Having someone speak in the tone and manner of King Lear and MTS above is really useful and a great kindness. These are tough subjects to tackle and having someone calmly explain what's going on and why it's important is really excellent. That's what Sarkeesian is aiming for (although I believe she doesn't fully succeed at all times, even accounting for the near-insane backlash from the nastier elements of the gaming crowd). Illy helps too, but the inflammatory tone he often takes makes for a bit of kneejerk emotional response instead of a "Oh, I hadn't considered things that well before."

[Macros]

Whilst I fully agree that institutional privilege is hard to grasp for many (even though I am aware that I am a "privileged fuck" I struggle to contextualise it when in an debate about certain topics, but I'm trying) and that divorce law does need reform, I can't actually believe anyone would read that article and think the author was actually a woman.
its one of three things;
either a very drawn out and over played trolling effort in the form of a lampoon on the ever villainous 'femnazis'
a diatribe from a a very bitter man who did happen to get screwed over by a lady and has decided that all womenfolk are evil sluts after his cock and wallet (and only one of those for the long term)
or, most likely, a reader of the daily sport who also sends those insightful emails about how hiring Muslims and other foreigners to do real jobs is what cause catastrophes (recent favourites include Italians should not drive boats and why the airbus really crashed in France)

it simply can not be taken seriously on any fucking level
50% of kids are raised by evil slutty single mothers?
women sleeping around is making all women slutty
women only do office work
women shouldn't be in the forces

read those statements as individual sentences, see how ridiculous the 'arguement' presented by 'mom' is?
I'm not trying to take a shot at Sombra for posting it,but surely man you gotta see how over the top complete stupidity of 99%of the letters composition nullifies the potential (very slim potential) 1% off truth you think may be nestled in its shotty depths.

do you honestly think any off what is presented in the document is grounded in any plane of reality?
sure some.girls like to go out and party, sleep around.
so do I, does that make me an evil chauvinist with a dick?*
we're talking about equality after all









* - minus the evil part its probably true

[Shinrei]

I am someone who does not always agree with aspects of the feminist movement, but I also couldn't finish reading that letter. The vilifying of women and general hyperbole was just way too over the top to be taken seriously.

This post has been edited by Shinrei: 16 April 2013 - 01:47 AM

[Illuyankas]

Hey, Assail! Your neg rep quote got cut off for being too long! It only shows "I like your implication that your self-righteou..." and I want to know what you meant, cause if this is a reaction to me accusing you of shitting and running, then you're not helping your case!

[Assail]

Illuyankas, on 16 April 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Hey, Assail! Your neg rep quote got cut off for being too long! It only shows "I like your implication that your self-righteou..." and I want to know what you meant, cause if this is a reaction to me accusing you of shitting and running, then you're not helping your case!

I'll message it to you

[Malaclypse]

It's really very simple - women are better than men in every way that matters.

They've been fucked over for millennia and have every right to be pissed off about it.

Personally, the problem becomes ' can you forgive me for the sins of my fathers' and even that misrepresents the situation. Growing up in 1980's Canada, we thought it was sorted, or at least I did - I didn't disrespect females by virtue of their gender, only for their behaviour. Judge everyone by their behaviour, without reference to gender, apart from the fact that you may have some uncomfortable desire to penetrate them - this was OK, almost.

What was not OK was the reverse discrimination, the revenge agenda from the feminists. I'll be fucked before I'm going to suffer for those millennia of privilege which I did not enjoy.

The feminist movement went too far and it's unfortunate.

A decade passed and Eminem crushed the feminist movement all on his own. Think on that.

[the broken]

So when is part II coming out?

[Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy]

sex sells, apparently.
Not only in video games, but in car adverts, tool adverts, cleaning product adverts- for some reason, we just like our products more if they're advertised to us by a pretty girl in light clothing. Men look because it's sexy, women look because they need to see whether she's got better boobs, legs etc....
In my opinion this constant exposure to "sex-yness" is a bad thing because it enforces stereotypes.

First and foremost we are human beings and should be recognised and treated as such equally where it is appropriate. This gets often forgotten in this petty gender war. E.g. men probably don't need maternity leave, but men and women should be paid equally for the same job, etc. And only then, without attaching any judgement it should be considered that men and women actually are different - without going into detail here - and therefore they should be valued and encouraged for the contributions they make to work, social life etc that originates from this exact difference, and they should be treated accordingly but not discriminated against because one is not the other, or one is considered better than the other or because one has got boobs and the other one doesn't etc...

But of course reaching this state is hopelessly utopic, and I know, however, it has been described in business/business psychology that teams consisting of both genders are more productive, companies with women on executive boards are performing better than men only boards etc. To me, this indicates together as people we are much more than as women and men alone.

Personally, I prefer to work in mixed teams, and I also like to have my man around because I find his presence relaxing and comforting and I like discussing stuff with him because I am sometimes undecided whereas he has clear ideas and suggestions that make an awful lot of sense, and he can fix things from hot water kettles to cars and bikes and all round makes my life a lot more easier and more pleasant and fun but I appreciate that some of this last argument is probably just down-right a Miss Savage-ism and not really representative. Call it anecdotal evidence.

This post has been edited by Miss Savagely Wishy Washy : 18 April 2013 - 01:25 PM

[Malaclypse]

equal but different, not complex, but somehow un-sellable as an idea to the masses. I don't understand. Kill all stupid people is my solution

[Macros]

That's a lot of dead bodies.

[Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy]

Malaclypse, on 18 April 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

equal but different, not complex, but somehow un-sellable as an idea to the masses. I don't understand. Kill all stupid people is my solution

exactly as you say. it's a different point of view, not a solution....

[Studlock]

Honestly a lot of differences between women and men are socially enforced rather than biological. Which is fine I am of the thought that women should be aloud to do whatever the hell they want without being judged by the larger census of the population up to par with men. As an example women who work to much are seen as bad mothers while men who work the same amount are not seen as bad fathers but rather the opposite: they're seen as breadwinners. If we get to point that men are seen as bad fathers or women as seen as breadwinners I think we'll have achieved equality but that is far off as. And honestly MRAs can suck it, most of the problems that affect men along the gender lines are because of reinforced stereotypes about (as King Lear pointed out) women...and guess what it was generations of men who reinforced it. Seeing radical opposition is not that strange, and though not morally acceptable, I think is a natural and important step.

Anyways has the second episode come out yet?