Silencer, on 11 March 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:
amphibian, on 11 March 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:
Assail, on 11 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:
Anyway, still busy rebuilding my jeeps engine, doing man things and generally being manly. Things that seem to have disappeared in this day and age, wouldn't you say Illy?
Two of the three people I know who own Jeeps and work on their engines are women.
The perspective that working on car engines is a manly thing is based somewhat in direct observations and from the absorption of the collective pop culture. Both of those things influence each other and become a looping cycle fairly quickly - which means that people get told that working on car engines is manly despite it not being an inherently gender-restricted or sex-specific thing. So that means women can get flat out told that they shouldn't be working on car engines or get the passive turn-away from doing such things because it's "not appropriate" according to a very hard to pinpoint cultural attitude - which is based on what exactly?
Reinforcing that type of cultural attitude is a rude, dismissive and damaging act and is done subtly or unknowingly at times. It's exactly like being racist.
I reject pretty much anything as being manly except perhaps scratching one's own attached-to-your-body testicles. The ideal of being fairer to genders and sexes in stories, video games and real life is a good one and the idea that the story, video game or real life would suffer negatively from doing so is a bit tenuous at best.
Some of the games mentioned here as having cool, empowered female characters are among the best games of all time. A large percentage, actually.
The only thing I would argue here is that, as an entertainment/artistic medium, there is nothing inherently wrong with making a videogame that reflects either current reality, past reality, or possible realities in which issues such as discrimination are explored.
Of course, this is fundamentally different from the case of "casual", "ingrained" or "institutionalized" sexism/racism/whateverism in that it is a deliberate attempt to portray something in a certain way, rather than doing it that way because it fits a developers worldview (or their interpretation of the consumer's worldview) or simply because that is the way it "has always been done".
To arbitrarily deny the existence of any form of negative stereotype or circumstance in entertainment/art is to essentially practice thought control and eventually turn said mediums into expressions of nothing, thereby defeating their purpose.
Thus it is important to bear in mind the Trope that: "
Tropes are not (inherently) Bad".
This ties into the point raised earlier about the majority of people you violently murder in videogames being male - this is another subconscious staple that stems from the fact that 1) the majority of soldiers or combatants in wars of all kinds for the vast majority of human history have been men and 2) it is culturally frowned upon to inflict violence upon women. Both of which are staples that can (should?) be explored in ways that are interesting and intelligent without resorting to the immediately obvious and highly distasteful opposites.
So nothing I really disagree with, just a caveat I felt need to be put out there. The concern being where an individual might misinterpret such exploration as reinforcing their behaviour, but that seems a constructed concern...
I agree with what you have stated, for sure. I don't think tropes are inherently bad, but to stay true to the topic, this is a trope that is being regarded as bad.
Thanks for your tidbit, you definitely highlighted and put forth some of the ideas I have going on a little bit more delicately, which seems to sometimes be the issue here
worrywort, on 11 March 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:
On top of that, I would suggest that even stereotypical "manly" activities aren't disappearing, and plenty of men still do them...it's just that a) they are increasingly less exclusive to men, and
men who have no interest in those activities are freer to do whatever else they want. Both cases in relative terms, of course. But this notion of the disappearing Man is an illusion. These exceptions to the "rule" -- which was only a rule by imposition of the vicious cycle amph mentions anyway -- have always existed. And the recognition of their existence shouldn't feel like such a threat, unless your comfort level is predicated on their suppression.
I can definitely agree that a lot of these "manly" activities aren't disappearing in the sense that we are forgetting about what they are, who does them (i.e. lost in history), but I would argue that they're becoming a lot less frequent. Maybe this is just because it is the way society is now leaning, or maybe it's apart of the bigger issue of gender roles and their place, if any, within society. Men being manly and women being feminine is not the way things are anymore, and in some increasingly expanding circles, it is often frowned upon to have that difference and separation I feel.
MTS, on 11 March 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:
Assail, on 11 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:
Illuyankas, on 10 March 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:
Let's see:
Yeah, why should a story told to you as a child where the person corresponding to you either has a woman as a literal object to be fought for, won and owned, or is said object and doesn't exist outside of the wants of the guy, be harmful? I know I'd sure be happier if every piece of fiction I ever learned or was shown depicted me as a trophy.
The problem isn't just with yourself (also fuck you for saying everyone with an issue about these things is mentally ill), it's with how people - usually 50% of people - value you. It exists outside of video games but these are a facet of an existing problem.
Are you fucking kidding? Why do you think John McClane exists? People identify with the characters in media they consume, which is why people enjoy works of fiction where the main character is a hero! It's why unvoiced characters exist so the player can project themselves on them, Gordon Freeman/almost every FPS style. In games it's your input that has accomplished the goal! And that's the issue here, cause women are usually the goal and not the character with agency, that being the key word here. And yeah, a woman would probably feel pretty shitty where the nearest entity in a game to her exists to titilate and do nothing of her own volition.
Yep, that sure is a lot. Try making a list of games with male protagonists instead. Then compare the number you find! It should be a very slanted ratio towards one of the two, I'm sure you can guess which.
More prolific =/= close to even vaguely equal. Also: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don't even know what to say about you here. Expand on this when you return, I want to see you salvage it.
The answer to your real question is yes it still is an issue cause the main thing people give a shit about in Tomb Raider isn't how cool Lara Croft is, it's that she's got tits. Valued because of her appeal to dudes. You seem to think that because a minute amount of progress is being made that the problem is over, when it really isn't.
It's up to you to perceive whether a woman is "owned" by the protagonist in a damsel in distress themed video game. Don't go and make assumptions on the messages a game is projecting just because YOU think so. Enlighten me if you were on the team that created the original video game that first featured the damsel in distress story arc and let me know if your intent was to display whomever the damsel was as an individual to be "owned".
To be as ass backwards as to be a man supporting feminism and a video that is picking apart a harmless tool for stories is leaving such an individual upon the threshold of mental illness. Or maybe I'm just a prick. Probably the latter in your guys eyes, anyone who disagrees usually is.
Well I don't know what to tell you, nor can I speak for the women you've hung around with or have in your life, but for me, the women I know, family, friends, wife, ex-girlfriends etc etc you name it, all of them have the intestinal fortitude to realize that a game is a game, a book is a book, it's all fiction, it's all fake. If you're demeaned by the fact that for the majority, women are portrayed as a damsel in distress, it may be that you need to take a long hard look at yourself and figure out how you prioritize what matters to you in life. And if you're a bloke who feels insulted or demeaned by it... well you sound very confused, and should probably seek help as far as I'm concerned.
Prolific... I mean... I said I was busy, looking back I'm pretty sure I meant to type "profound", but that seems like such a great thing to spam a line of text on. Are you simple perchance?
Well in response to your answer in regards to my real question, I will say this: If you're playing any Tomb Raider games because a virtual, pixellated character has tits, then I feel bad for you brother. Obviously the real world isn't working out so well for you. Problem? There is no problem. People are going out of their way to make a problem where none exists. Women have all the equal opportunities men do (At least in the U.S. and most other First world countries), going and backtracking and ranting about someone using women as plot device to be rescued isn't disabling women from doing anything men do--that issue lies in an individual, not a fucking video game.
Anyway, still busy rebuilding my jeeps engine, doing man things and generally being manly. Things that seem to have disappeared in this day and age, wouldn't you say Illy?
Edit: Thank you for politely disagreeing Primate. Much love lol.
Are you seriously saying that a man who supports the empowerment of women is on the verge of mental illness? [snip].
Anyway, modern literary theory would suggest that the intent of say Shigeru Miyamoto creating Donkey Kong is irrelevant. What really matters is what the reader takes from the story. The fact remains that society even now still places men in the 'protector' role over women, placing women in a passive role where it is the man's job to protect and rescue her, not her own. It's not 'harmless' as you say. Popular culture is one of if not the most powerful influence on us as a society. It influences the way we carry ourselves, the way we talk to each other, and even the way we relate to each other. The potential problem is that it normalises certain behaviours and attitudes that bleed into mainstream thought. Why do you think governments ban books? They wouldn't need to if it was 'all fake'. If certain media continue to portray women as needing to be protected then that is how women will be continued to be perceived in general. You may say that 'it has no effect on me', but that is bullshit, as it affects you the same way advertising does - subconsciously. That you can't seem to see a problem with this portrayal is the result of your own ass backwards thinking, just as the notion that women have equal opportunity with men in the First World, which is quite frankly ridiculous, and it is portrayals like this that sadly keep it from happening.
I'm saying that a man who cannot see that women need no empowerment but from within themselves is on the verge of mental illness. Why is it that you think that women need to be made into the protagonist that does the rescuing, or at least in a role where she is not this DiD, in a video game in order to be empowered? That's like being a homeless man and blaming your being homeless because you spent a lot of time living in the inner city as a child, seeing homeless men every day. People need to quit blaming bullshit for the reasons they don't feel empowered, or capable, or successful. Video games and their damsels aren't disempowering women, women are disempowering themselves, if that's how they feel. If they spent half the time going out and focusing on themselves and their own ambitions and goals instead of making videos blaming Donkey Kong for their lack of empowerment drive as a woman, they'd probably outweigh the amount of male CEOs in the Fortune 500.
Say what you will, but it's not advertising that has groomed me to want to be the breadwinner for my family, or protect the women of my family, it's the fact that that is how I was brought up. It also has to do with the fact that physically, I could probably protect a woman better than the average woman could protect herself. I'm faster, I'm more muscular, I am inherently built towards fighting, protecting, killing, working. It's not insulting, it's a fact. Now I say the "average" woman. There are always exceptions, and I won't deny that. So on that note regarding this response, I would say it's not advertisement that has subliminally programmed me to feel this way, it's my upbringing. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but you decided to personally talk about me, someone you know next to nothing about, so you get a response geared towards just that: me.
Women legally have every opportunity to succeed in the First World as much as men do. Will I say that that makes it a reality? No, but find me a perfect country where sexism, racism, bigotry, anything, does not exist. You won't. It's not possible, but would I say it's a giant issue that needs immediately redress? Fuck no. Women aren't getting shafted because of their gender at an alarming rate. It's not ruining lives. I'm not trivializing something that definitely needs improvement, but I am saying that the First World has a hell of a lot better things to consider and put their minds upon than video games apparently disempowering women.
Morgoth, on 11 March 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:
Wrong headed though he may seem, Assail is actively arguing for his opinions and is participating in a discussion that directly relates to those opinions. I don't think he deserves the sort of vitriol he's receiving.
It's fine really... everyone is guilty of jumping to person attacks when they disagree. I would say it's human nature lol. With that being said, don't feel as though you must edit these posts on my behalf (Admins
), I'm always up for a good laugh.