[Assail]

Illuyankas, on 10 March 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Let's see:

Yeah, why should a story told to you as a child where the person corresponding to you either has a woman as a literal object to be fought for, won and owned, or is said object and doesn't exist outside of the wants of the guy, be harmful? I know I'd sure be happier if every piece of fiction I ever learned or was shown depicted me as a trophy.

The problem isn't just with yourself (also fuck you for saying everyone with an issue about these things is mentally ill), it's with how people - usually 50% of people - value you. It exists outside of video games but these are a facet of an existing problem.

Are you fucking kidding? Why do you think John McClane exists? People identify with the characters in media they consume, which is why people enjoy works of fiction where the main character is a hero! It's why unvoiced characters exist so the player can project themselves on them, Gordon Freeman/almost every FPS style. In games it's your input that has accomplished the goal! And that's the issue here, cause women are usually the goal and not the character with agency, that being the key word here. And yeah, a woman would probably feel pretty shitty where the nearest entity in a game to her exists to titilate and do nothing of her own volition.

Yep, that sure is a lot. Try making a list of games with male protagonists instead. Then compare the number you find! It should be a very slanted ratio towards one of the two, I'm sure you can guess which.

More prolific =/= close to even vaguely equal. Also: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I don't even know what to say about you here. Expand on this when you return, I want to see you salvage it.

The answer to your real question is yes it still is an issue cause the main thing people give a shit about in Tomb Raider isn't how cool Lara Croft is, it's that she's got tits. Valued because of her appeal to dudes. You seem to think that because a minute amount of progress is being made that the problem is over, when it really isn't.

It's up to you to perceive whether a woman is "owned" by the protagonist in a damsel in distress themed video game. Don't go and make assumptions on the messages a game is projecting just because YOU think so. Enlighten me if you were on the team that created the original video game that first featured the damsel in distress story arc and let me know if your intent was to display whomever the damsel was as an individual to be "owned".

[snip] Or maybe I'm just a prick. Probably the latter in your guys eyes, anyone who disagrees usually is.

Well I don't know what to tell you, nor can I speak for the women you've hung around with or have in your life, but for me, the women I know, family, friends, wife, ex-girlfriends etc etc you name it, all of them have the intestinal fortitude to realize that a game is a game, a book is a book, it's all fiction, it's all fake. If you're demeaned by the fact that for the majority, women are portrayed as a damsel in distress, it may be that you need to take a long hard look at yourself and figure out how you prioritize what matters to you in life. And if you're a bloke who feels insulted or demeaned by it... well you sound very confused, and should probably seek help as far as I'm concerned.

Prolific... I mean... I said I was busy, looking back I'm pretty sure I meant to type "profound", but that seems like such a great thing to spam a line of text on. [snip]

Well in response to your answer in regards to my real question, I will say this: If you're playing any Tomb Raider games because a virtual, pixellated character has tits, then I feel bad for you brother. [snip]. Problem? There is no problem. People are going out of their way to make a problem where none exists. Women have all the equal opportunities men do (At least in the U.S. and most other First world countries), going and backtracking and ranting about someone using women as plot device to be rescued isn't disabling women from doing anything men do--that issue lies in an individual, not a fucking video game.

Anyway, still busy rebuilding my jeeps engine, doing man things and generally being manly. Things that seem to have disappeared in this day and age, wouldn't you say [snip]?

Edit: Thank you for politely disagreeing Primate. Much love lol.

This post has been edited by Silencer: 11 March 2013 - 05:22 AM
Reason for edit: Edited for personally directed comments.

[D'rek]

worrywort, on 10 March 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

the broken, on 10 March 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

worrywort, on 10 March 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

For instance, I was pretty disturbed by the constant misogynist talk -- admittedly from mostly villains -- in Arkham City. It was a bombardment that uglied an excellent game. And I couldn't help but connect the notion that it didn't sound so different from the talk of plenty of gamers, even if the game put it in villains' mouths. I also kind of think there are plenty of male gamers who, while ambivalent about the tropes like this, will generally side with buying a good game despite its problems. It doesn't mean they wouldn't like to see changes.

These people work for the Joker. You're expecting them to be nice?

I think I addressed the fact that it was disturbing (and pretty constant) regardless of the fact that it was villains saying these things, and in reference to Catwoman the insults were almost always gendered. I do agree my example strayed from the Damsels in Distress trope, but it was in specific response to D'rek's assertion (paraphrased) that of course companies are going to tailor games to their customer base and there's nothing wrong with that. I was saying that even good and great games can be problematic, and that good and great people (men and women alike) still tend to buy those games when the good outweighs the bad, so sales aren't necessarily a good indicator of people's opinions on these problematic issues.

That's not really what I had been trying to say, though I guess maybe it came out that way? Let me backtrack/clarify - I mean mostly that because conditions were very different in the 80s, it doesn't do a whole lot of good to criticize what went on back then either way. Accusing a game from 1981 of being sexist may be accurate, but it's easy for people to handwave such accusations away as it being a product of the culture of the time, no matter of whether that is a justified outlook or not. In the end it won't accomplish anything, because the industry and culture of today is very different from the 80s anyways, and I think we're more likely to accomplish something by focusing the argument on the games that are being made now than by harping on decades-old franchises that have been slaves to their own traditions for a long time now.

(Though as Illy pointed out from my last points, it seems some franchises do change... and get much, much worse....)

This post has been edited by D'rek: 11 March 2013 - 01:03 AM

[worry]

Ah, I hear you on that loud and clear. But on the other hand, since she's talking about tropes (and maybe also perhaps because this was the first video of a series), she provides a history lesson...and because one of the issues at hand is the persistence of the trope, a little retroactive criticism is necessary to underline the point.

Also, and this might just be an empty guess, I think academic-minded geeks who are into analyzing previously "neglected" passions (stuff that was thought of as "for kids" like games and cartoons, for example) will tend to do some retroactive analysis just for the sake of it. It might lead to the problem you bring up, but in a way I can't begrudge the impulse.

[amphibian]

Assail, on 11 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Anyway, still busy rebuilding my jeeps engine, doing man things and generally being manly. Things that seem to have disappeared in this day and age, wouldn't you say Illy?

Two of the three people I know who own Jeeps and work on their engines are women.

The perspective that working on car engines is a manly thing is based somewhat in direct observations and from the absorption of the collective pop culture. Both of those things influence each other and become a looping cycle fairly quickly - which means that people get told that working on car engines is manly despite it not being an inherently gender-restricted or sex-specific thing. So that means women can get flat out told that they shouldn't be working on car engines or get the passive turn-away from doing such things because it's "not appropriate" according to a very hard to pinpoint cultural attitude - which is based on what exactly?

Reinforcing that type of cultural attitude is a rude, dismissive and damaging act and is done subtly or unknowingly at times. It's exactly like being racist.

I reject pretty much anything as being manly except perhaps scratching one's own attached-to-your-body testicles. The ideal of being fairer to genders and sexes in stories, video games and real life is a good one and the idea that the story, video game or real life would suffer negatively from doing so is a bit tenuous at best.

Some of the games mentioned here as having cool, empowered female characters are among the best games of all time. A large percentage, actually.

[Khellendros]

As Donkey Kong features quite heavily as the game which kickstarted the DID trope in video games in Sarkeesian's video, I thought this story might be relevant:

Father changes playable character to Pauline so that his daughter can save Mario/Jumpman instead: http://www.polygon.c...ario-as-pauline


Edit: It was the daughter's request to be able to play as the girl.

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 11 March 2013 - 03:36 AM

[Silencer]

amphibian, on 11 March 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Assail, on 11 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Anyway, still busy rebuilding my jeeps engine, doing man things and generally being manly. Things that seem to have disappeared in this day and age, wouldn't you say Illy?

Two of the three people I know who own Jeeps and work on their engines are women.

The perspective that working on car engines is a manly thing is based somewhat in direct observations and from the absorption of the collective pop culture. Both of those things influence each other and become a looping cycle fairly quickly - which means that people get told that working on car engines is manly despite it not being an inherently gender-restricted or sex-specific thing. So that means women can get flat out told that they shouldn't be working on car engines or get the passive turn-away from doing such things because it's "not appropriate" according to a very hard to pinpoint cultural attitude - which is based on what exactly?

Reinforcing that type of cultural attitude is a rude, dismissive and damaging act and is done subtly or unknowingly at times. It's exactly like being racist.

I reject pretty much anything as being manly except perhaps scratching one's own attached-to-your-body testicles. The ideal of being fairer to genders and sexes in stories, video games and real life is a good one and the idea that the story, video game or real life would suffer negatively from doing so is a bit tenuous at best.

Some of the games mentioned here as having cool, empowered female characters are among the best games of all time. A large percentage, actually.

The only thing I would argue here is that, as an entertainment/artistic medium, there is nothing inherently wrong with making a videogame that reflects either current reality, past reality, or possible realities in which issues such as discrimination are explored.

Of course, this is fundamentally different from the case of "casual", "ingrained" or "institutionalized" sexism/racism/whateverism in that it is a deliberate attempt to portray something in a certain way, rather than doing it that way because it fits a developers worldview (or their interpretation of the consumer's worldview) or simply because that is the way it "has always been done".

To arbitrarily deny the existence of any form of negative stereotype or circumstance in entertainment/art is to essentially practice thought control and eventually turn said mediums into expressions of nothing, thereby defeating their purpose.

Thus it is important to bear in mind the Trope that: "Tropes are not (inherently) Bad".

This ties into the point raised earlier about the majority of people you violently murder in videogames being male - this is another subconscious staple that stems from the fact that 1) the majority of soldiers or combatants in wars of all kinds for the vast majority of human history have been men and 2) it is culturally frowned upon to inflict violence upon women. Both of which are staples that can (should?) be explored in ways that are interesting and intelligent without resorting to the immediately obvious and highly distasteful opposites.

So nothing I really disagree with, just a caveat I felt need to be put out there. The concern being where an individual might misinterpret such exploration as reinforcing their behaviour, but that seems a constructed concern...

[worry]

On top of that, I would suggest that even stereotypical "manly" activities aren't disappearing, and plenty of men still do them...it's just that a) they are increasingly less exclusive to men, and men who have no interest in those activities are freer to do whatever else they want. Both cases in relative terms, of course. But this notion of the disappearing Man is an illusion. These exceptions to the "rule" -- which was only a rule by imposition of the vicious cycle amph mentions anyway -- have always existed. And the recognition of their existence shouldn't feel like such a threat, unless your comfort level is predicated on their suppression.

[MTS]

Assail, on 11 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 10 March 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Let's see:

Yeah, why should a story told to you as a child where the person corresponding to you either has a woman as a literal object to be fought for, won and owned, or is said object and doesn't exist outside of the wants of the guy, be harmful? I know I'd sure be happier if every piece of fiction I ever learned or was shown depicted me as a trophy.

The problem isn't just with yourself (also fuck you for saying everyone with an issue about these things is mentally ill), it's with how people - usually 50% of people - value you. It exists outside of video games but these are a facet of an existing problem.

Are you fucking kidding? Why do you think John McClane exists? People identify with the characters in media they consume, which is why people enjoy works of fiction where the main character is a hero! It's why unvoiced characters exist so the player can project themselves on them, Gordon Freeman/almost every FPS style. In games it's your input that has accomplished the goal! And that's the issue here, cause women are usually the goal and not the character with agency, that being the key word here. And yeah, a woman would probably feel pretty shitty where the nearest entity in a game to her exists to titilate and do nothing of her own volition.

Yep, that sure is a lot. Try making a list of games with male protagonists instead. Then compare the number you find! It should be a very slanted ratio towards one of the two, I'm sure you can guess which.

More prolific =/= close to even vaguely equal. Also: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I don't even know what to say about you here. Expand on this when you return, I want to see you salvage it.

The answer to your real question is yes it still is an issue cause the main thing people give a shit about in Tomb Raider isn't how cool Lara Croft is, it's that she's got tits. Valued because of her appeal to dudes. You seem to think that because a minute amount of progress is being made that the problem is over, when it really isn't.

It's up to you to perceive whether a woman is "owned" by the protagonist in a damsel in distress themed video game. Don't go and make assumptions on the messages a game is projecting just because YOU think so. Enlighten me if you were on the team that created the original video game that first featured the damsel in distress story arc and let me know if your intent was to display whomever the damsel was as an individual to be "owned".

To be as ass backwards as to be a man supporting feminism and a video that is picking apart a harmless tool for stories is leaving such an individual upon the threshold of mental illness. Or maybe I'm just a prick. Probably the latter in your guys eyes, anyone who disagrees usually is.

Well I don't know what to tell you, nor can I speak for the women you've hung around with or have in your life, but for me, the women I know, family, friends, wife, ex-girlfriends etc etc you name it, all of them have the intestinal fortitude to realize that a game is a game, a book is a book, it's all fiction, it's all fake. If you're demeaned by the fact that for the majority, women are portrayed as a damsel in distress, it may be that you need to take a long hard look at yourself and figure out how you prioritize what matters to you in life. And if you're a bloke who feels insulted or demeaned by it... well you sound very confused, and should probably seek help as far as I'm concerned.

Prolific... I mean... I said I was busy, looking back I'm pretty sure I meant to type "profound", but that seems like such a great thing to spam a line of text on. Are you simple perchance?

Well in response to your answer in regards to my real question, I will say this: If you're playing any Tomb Raider games because a virtual, pixellated character has tits, then I feel bad for you brother. Obviously the real world isn't working out so well for you. Problem? There is no problem. People are going out of their way to make a problem where none exists. Women have all the equal opportunities men do (At least in the U.S. and most other First world countries), going and backtracking and ranting about someone using women as plot device to be rescued isn't disabling women from doing anything men do--that issue lies in an individual, not a fucking video game.

Anyway, still busy rebuilding my jeeps engine, doing man things and generally being manly. Things that seem to have disappeared in this day and age, wouldn't you say Illy?

Edit: Thank you for politely disagreeing Primate. Much love lol.

Are you seriously saying that a man who supports the empowerment of women is on the verge of mental illness? [snip].

Anyway, modern literary theory would suggest that the intent of say Shigeru Miyamoto creating Donkey Kong is irrelevant. What really matters is what the reader takes from the story. The fact remains that society even now still places men in the 'protector' role over women, placing women in a passive role where it is the man's job to protect and rescue her, not her own. It's not 'harmless' as you say. Popular culture is one of if not the most powerful influence on us as a society. It influences the way we carry ourselves, the way we talk to each other, and even the way we relate to each other. The potential problem is that it normalises certain behaviours and attitudes that bleed into mainstream thought. Why do you think governments ban books? They wouldn't need to if it was 'all fake'. If certain media continue to portray women as needing to be protected then that is how women will be continued to be perceived in general. You may say that 'it has no effect on me', but that is bullshit, as it affects you the same way advertising does - subconsciously. That you can't seem to see a problem with this portrayal is the result of your own ass backwards thinking, just as the notion that women have equal opportunity with men in the First World, which is quite frankly ridiculous, and it is portrayals like this that sadly keep it from happening.

This post has been edited by Silencer: 11 March 2013 - 04:31 AM
Reason for edit: More fucking personal insults, goddamnit.

[Silencer]

Silencer, on 10 March 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Please bear the discussion board rules in mind when posting, everyone. Civility and no personal insults!

Seriously, I need to quote myself here?

[worry]

Can you quote me complaining about the code for this emoticon: ?

[Silencer]

worrywort, on 11 March 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

Can you quote me complaining about the code for this emoticon: ?

Probably, but I'm not going to bother.

[MTS]

HoosierDaddy, on 10 March 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Evidently I pushed the ball past the post.

Apologies for having done so.

Ditto. Mea culpa.

[Morgoth]

Wrong headed though he may seem, Assail is actively arguing for his opinions and is participating in a discussion that directly relates to those opinions. I don't think he deserves the sort of vitriol he's receiving.

[Assail]

amphibian, on 11 March 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Assail, on 11 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Anyway, still busy rebuilding my jeeps engine, doing man things and generally being manly. Things that seem to have disappeared in this day and age, wouldn't you say Illy?

Two of the three people I know who own Jeeps and work on their engines are women.

The perspective that working on car engines is a manly thing is based somewhat in direct observations and from the absorption of the collective pop culture. Both of those things influence each other and become a looping cycle fairly quickly - which means that people get told that working on car engines is manly despite it not being an inherently gender-restricted or sex-specific thing. So that means women can get flat out told that they shouldn't be working on car engines or get the passive turn-away from doing such things because it's "not appropriate" according to a very hard to pinpoint cultural attitude - which is based on what exactly?

Reinforcing that type of cultural attitude is a rude, dismissive and damaging act and is done subtly or unknowingly at times. It's exactly like being racist.

I reject pretty much anything as being manly except perhaps scratching one's own attached-to-your-body testicles. The ideal of being fairer to genders and sexes in stories, video games and real life is a good one and the idea that the story, video game or real life would suffer negatively from doing so is a bit tenuous at best.

Some of the games mentioned here as having cool, empowered female characters are among the best games of all time. A large percentage, actually.

I mean I was just being funny Although I am rebuilding my engine. Then selling it

Anyway, on to the topic at hand. I disagree with your point that women can be flat out told that they shouldn't be working on car engines, or be passively turned away from doing such things. I've seen plenty of women (And just as you said, you know two) who can work on cars with the most "manliest" of men. I just want to cement the fact that I was joking and making a slight jab at Illy. I disagree with you though... there are decidedly "manly" activities out there, not saying they can't be enjoyed by women as well, but the general idea regarding those activities is that they are usually done by men.

[Assail]

Silencer, on 11 March 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

amphibian, on 11 March 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Assail, on 11 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Anyway, still busy rebuilding my jeeps engine, doing man things and generally being manly. Things that seem to have disappeared in this day and age, wouldn't you say Illy?

Two of the three people I know who own Jeeps and work on their engines are women.

The perspective that working on car engines is a manly thing is based somewhat in direct observations and from the absorption of the collective pop culture. Both of those things influence each other and become a looping cycle fairly quickly - which means that people get told that working on car engines is manly despite it not being an inherently gender-restricted or sex-specific thing. So that means women can get flat out told that they shouldn't be working on car engines or get the passive turn-away from doing such things because it's "not appropriate" according to a very hard to pinpoint cultural attitude - which is based on what exactly?

Reinforcing that type of cultural attitude is a rude, dismissive and damaging act and is done subtly or unknowingly at times. It's exactly like being racist.

I reject pretty much anything as being manly except perhaps scratching one's own attached-to-your-body testicles. The ideal of being fairer to genders and sexes in stories, video games and real life is a good one and the idea that the story, video game or real life would suffer negatively from doing so is a bit tenuous at best.

Some of the games mentioned here as having cool, empowered female characters are among the best games of all time. A large percentage, actually.

The only thing I would argue here is that, as an entertainment/artistic medium, there is nothing inherently wrong with making a videogame that reflects either current reality, past reality, or possible realities in which issues such as discrimination are explored.

Of course, this is fundamentally different from the case of "casual", "ingrained" or "institutionalized" sexism/racism/whateverism in that it is a deliberate attempt to portray something in a certain way, rather than doing it that way because it fits a developers worldview (or their interpretation of the consumer's worldview) or simply because that is the way it "has always been done".

To arbitrarily deny the existence of any form of negative stereotype or circumstance in entertainment/art is to essentially practice thought control and eventually turn said mediums into expressions of nothing, thereby defeating their purpose.

Thus it is important to bear in mind the Trope that: "Tropes are not (inherently) Bad".

This ties into the point raised earlier about the majority of people you violently murder in videogames being male - this is another subconscious staple that stems from the fact that 1) the majority of soldiers or combatants in wars of all kinds for the vast majority of human history have been men and 2) it is culturally frowned upon to inflict violence upon women. Both of which are staples that can (should?) be explored in ways that are interesting and intelligent without resorting to the immediately obvious and highly distasteful opposites.

So nothing I really disagree with, just a caveat I felt need to be put out there. The concern being where an individual might misinterpret such exploration as reinforcing their behaviour, but that seems a constructed concern...

I agree with what you have stated, for sure. I don't think tropes are inherently bad, but to stay true to the topic, this is a trope that is being regarded as bad.

Thanks for your tidbit, you definitely highlighted and put forth some of the ideas I have going on a little bit more delicately, which seems to sometimes be the issue here

worrywort, on 11 March 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

On top of that, I would suggest that even stereotypical "manly" activities aren't disappearing, and plenty of men still do them...it's just that a) they are increasingly less exclusive to men, and men who have no interest in those activities are freer to do whatever else they want. Both cases in relative terms, of course. But this notion of the disappearing Man is an illusion. These exceptions to the "rule" -- which was only a rule by imposition of the vicious cycle amph mentions anyway -- have always existed. And the recognition of their existence shouldn't feel like such a threat, unless your comfort level is predicated on their suppression.

I can definitely agree that a lot of these "manly" activities aren't disappearing in the sense that we are forgetting about what they are, who does them (i.e. lost in history), but I would argue that they're becoming a lot less frequent. Maybe this is just because it is the way society is now leaning, or maybe it's apart of the bigger issue of gender roles and their place, if any, within society. Men being manly and women being feminine is not the way things are anymore, and in some increasingly expanding circles, it is often frowned upon to have that difference and separation I feel.

MTS, on 11 March 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Assail, on 11 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 10 March 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Let's see:

Yeah, why should a story told to you as a child where the person corresponding to you either has a woman as a literal object to be fought for, won and owned, or is said object and doesn't exist outside of the wants of the guy, be harmful? I know I'd sure be happier if every piece of fiction I ever learned or was shown depicted me as a trophy.

The problem isn't just with yourself (also fuck you for saying everyone with an issue about these things is mentally ill), it's with how people - usually 50% of people - value you. It exists outside of video games but these are a facet of an existing problem.

Are you fucking kidding? Why do you think John McClane exists? People identify with the characters in media they consume, which is why people enjoy works of fiction where the main character is a hero! It's why unvoiced characters exist so the player can project themselves on them, Gordon Freeman/almost every FPS style. In games it's your input that has accomplished the goal! And that's the issue here, cause women are usually the goal and not the character with agency, that being the key word here. And yeah, a woman would probably feel pretty shitty where the nearest entity in a game to her exists to titilate and do nothing of her own volition.

Yep, that sure is a lot. Try making a list of games with male protagonists instead. Then compare the number you find! It should be a very slanted ratio towards one of the two, I'm sure you can guess which.

More prolific =/= close to even vaguely equal. Also: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I don't even know what to say about you here. Expand on this when you return, I want to see you salvage it.

The answer to your real question is yes it still is an issue cause the main thing people give a shit about in Tomb Raider isn't how cool Lara Croft is, it's that she's got tits. Valued because of her appeal to dudes. You seem to think that because a minute amount of progress is being made that the problem is over, when it really isn't.

It's up to you to perceive whether a woman is "owned" by the protagonist in a damsel in distress themed video game. Don't go and make assumptions on the messages a game is projecting just because YOU think so. Enlighten me if you were on the team that created the original video game that first featured the damsel in distress story arc and let me know if your intent was to display whomever the damsel was as an individual to be "owned".

To be as ass backwards as to be a man supporting feminism and a video that is picking apart a harmless tool for stories is leaving such an individual upon the threshold of mental illness. Or maybe I'm just a prick. Probably the latter in your guys eyes, anyone who disagrees usually is.

Well I don't know what to tell you, nor can I speak for the women you've hung around with or have in your life, but for me, the women I know, family, friends, wife, ex-girlfriends etc etc you name it, all of them have the intestinal fortitude to realize that a game is a game, a book is a book, it's all fiction, it's all fake. If you're demeaned by the fact that for the majority, women are portrayed as a damsel in distress, it may be that you need to take a long hard look at yourself and figure out how you prioritize what matters to you in life. And if you're a bloke who feels insulted or demeaned by it... well you sound very confused, and should probably seek help as far as I'm concerned.

Prolific... I mean... I said I was busy, looking back I'm pretty sure I meant to type "profound", but that seems like such a great thing to spam a line of text on. Are you simple perchance?

Well in response to your answer in regards to my real question, I will say this: If you're playing any Tomb Raider games because a virtual, pixellated character has tits, then I feel bad for you brother. Obviously the real world isn't working out so well for you. Problem? There is no problem. People are going out of their way to make a problem where none exists. Women have all the equal opportunities men do (At least in the U.S. and most other First world countries), going and backtracking and ranting about someone using women as plot device to be rescued isn't disabling women from doing anything men do--that issue lies in an individual, not a fucking video game.

Anyway, still busy rebuilding my jeeps engine, doing man things and generally being manly. Things that seem to have disappeared in this day and age, wouldn't you say Illy?

Edit: Thank you for politely disagreeing Primate. Much love lol.

Are you seriously saying that a man who supports the empowerment of women is on the verge of mental illness? [snip].

Anyway, modern literary theory would suggest that the intent of say Shigeru Miyamoto creating Donkey Kong is irrelevant. What really matters is what the reader takes from the story. The fact remains that society even now still places men in the 'protector' role over women, placing women in a passive role where it is the man's job to protect and rescue her, not her own. It's not 'harmless' as you say. Popular culture is one of if not the most powerful influence on us as a society. It influences the way we carry ourselves, the way we talk to each other, and even the way we relate to each other. The potential problem is that it normalises certain behaviours and attitudes that bleed into mainstream thought. Why do you think governments ban books? They wouldn't need to if it was 'all fake'. If certain media continue to portray women as needing to be protected then that is how women will be continued to be perceived in general. You may say that 'it has no effect on me', but that is bullshit, as it affects you the same way advertising does - subconsciously. That you can't seem to see a problem with this portrayal is the result of your own ass backwards thinking, just as the notion that women have equal opportunity with men in the First World, which is quite frankly ridiculous, and it is portrayals like this that sadly keep it from happening.

I'm saying that a man who cannot see that women need no empowerment but from within themselves is on the verge of mental illness. Why is it that you think that women need to be made into the protagonist that does the rescuing, or at least in a role where she is not this DiD, in a video game in order to be empowered? That's like being a homeless man and blaming your being homeless because you spent a lot of time living in the inner city as a child, seeing homeless men every day. People need to quit blaming bullshit for the reasons they don't feel empowered, or capable, or successful. Video games and their damsels aren't disempowering women, women are disempowering themselves, if that's how they feel. If they spent half the time going out and focusing on themselves and their own ambitions and goals instead of making videos blaming Donkey Kong for their lack of empowerment drive as a woman, they'd probably outweigh the amount of male CEOs in the Fortune 500.

Say what you will, but it's not advertising that has groomed me to want to be the breadwinner for my family, or protect the women of my family, it's the fact that that is how I was brought up. It also has to do with the fact that physically, I could probably protect a woman better than the average woman could protect herself. I'm faster, I'm more muscular, I am inherently built towards fighting, protecting, killing, working. It's not insulting, it's a fact. Now I say the "average" woman. There are always exceptions, and I won't deny that. So on that note regarding this response, I would say it's not advertisement that has subliminally programmed me to feel this way, it's my upbringing. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but you decided to personally talk about me, someone you know next to nothing about, so you get a response geared towards just that: me.

Women legally have every opportunity to succeed in the First World as much as men do. Will I say that that makes it a reality? No, but find me a perfect country where sexism, racism, bigotry, anything, does not exist. You won't. It's not possible, but would I say it's a giant issue that needs immediately redress? Fuck no. Women aren't getting shafted because of their gender at an alarming rate. It's not ruining lives. I'm not trivializing something that definitely needs improvement, but I am saying that the First World has a hell of a lot better things to consider and put their minds upon than video games apparently disempowering women.

Morgoth, on 11 March 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Wrong headed though he may seem, Assail is actively arguing for his opinions and is participating in a discussion that directly relates to those opinions. I don't think he deserves the sort of vitriol he's receiving.

It's fine really... everyone is guilty of jumping to person attacks when they disagree. I would say it's human nature lol. With that being said, don't feel as though you must edit these posts on my behalf (Admins ), I'm always up for a good laugh.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Following all the above I have a question and I hope you forgive me if it comes across as retroactive or bigoted.

I know that a woman can have the same innate ability to be a match to any man just as a man has the innate ability to be a match to any woman but these things are not easily done, a persons sex dictates much about who and what they are. A male body builder may be more likely to mass muscle faster than a female body builder. A woman may be inclined to multitask better. The sexes are different and you overcome those differences with effort.

Games portray women in a certain way. Lara Croft is a female hero that is undergoing a metamorphosis that will likely see her become more than just a sexualized symbol. Sure she may still be sexualized but her sexuality is an aspect of her character which we tie together with how tough she is. I find it a positive thing that she becomes more and more dimensional as the Tomb Raider franchise develops. I would like to see more storylines dealing with how the ordinary woman becomes the hero, rather than having a woman that was born a hero, something I tire of even in current games with male protagonists. I think the difference is vital

I don't think it makes sense to try "balance" the market with an influx of female characters that try right the wrongs of their male counterparts by being just as strong, fast and stoic. There should be differences. The tough girl shouldn't come across as a tough guy that got born female. she should come across as a woman with all the best of the gender adding to who she is as a hero. I think there are things that boast masculine traits and feminine traits. Games Should try accommodate a marriage of these elements, I haven't played Portal (One day I shall!) but I learn from reviews that Chelss is appreciated for being a female hero rather than being a hero who is female.

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 11 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

[the broken]

Quote

What I find interesting is how often this discussion piggybacks on discussions about harmful portrayals of women in media, and how seldom it's a standalone subject with the intention of exploring how these portrayals harm men and what can be done to reverse or minimise that harm (and more specifically, an exploration which doesn't require the demonisation of feminism to do it).

Fair point, accepted. Last time I did raise something like this elsewhere, though, it was immediately responded to by

"I think there's simply sexism, and you can't separate sexism against men from sexism against women," and went on to talk about gender roles in media.

Dolmen:


Tough guy born female... How exactly is that different from a tough girl? How can you tell the difference?

[Studlock]

Sorry Dolemen+ but that's just gender essentialism nonsense. There is different between the sexes, but it's not so much that that they literally have to try harder (than the other sex) to over come that difference (unless super specialized like body building and how don't even get me started on the 'women are better at multitasking'). I am so tired of the 'man with boobs' complaint because it holds no water what so ever! What are female soldiers? Are they not masculine in nature because of there profession or are they a 'tough guy born female'? Tough girls exist in real life so why shouldn't they in fiction? Though I still find it grating that strength is tied up in violence which is generally a masculine trait and sometimes the only ways a woman is seen as strong is through violence not because of her character but because she acts as a tradition male.

I think it would do everyone a favor to divorce sex and gender, think gender as continuum in which either sex (or a transex person) could land anywhere upon. It helped me deal with my per-convinced notions of gender roles in society growing up. Anyways I am pretty excited with this project, I find video games does not have a lot of serious meditation on the contents of said games.

As for looking at men problems as separate, I think it honestly has to do that at the end of the day men are still in a position of power no matter how much the patriarchy harms them (and I agree it does, a man trying to break away is usually compared negativity to women or general femininity though). They get paid more, they are more represented, they seen as complex competent individuals by default, etc. The problem of male gender roles is simply not equal to women's and such has less focus on it. It'd be like looking at how racism effects white people, a group who mostly benefits from it. I do exactly endorse it but I can see the reason it happens this way.

[Dolmen 2.0]

the broken, on 11 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Dolmen:


Tough guy born female... How exactly is that different from a tough girl? How can you tell the difference?

[EDIT]

There are women who are born lacking the inclination to be feminine. There are men lacking the inclination to be masculine. These people have a right to that perspective of themselves. under that perspective they often adopt the opposite genderization and mould themselves into the opposite of what their sex might make us believe is their "natural" inclination. Its a common a reactionary approach. When a woman that achieves something a man is considered more likely to accomplish, If she moulded her life with the denial of being feminine I am no less impressed or appreciative, but I cannot say to a young girl, "hey if you want to make it in (category x activity) you need to give up on femininety."

Now I know I mess up by using the terms "tough girl" vs "Tough guy born female". even polarizing it with terms like masculine and feminine is wrong as there is plenty of gray area between the two roles. What I try to say here is that you can grow up tough and still maintain femininety. it is not wrong to be both. even amidst female soldiers there are those that lessen their femininety but they do not do away with it entirely. Thats the kind of hero I think we really don't see in games. I mean if we are polarizing protagonists, it should be done right. swapping a male for a female is being too simplistic, there are complexities to being a woman and a game should negotiate those complexities if it wants to claim it is championing the female cause. Life for a female soldier is VERY different to the life of a male soldier. Gender balance is different from equal sex oppurtunity. Gender is a lot more than just having different bits downtstairs.

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 11 March 2013 - 12:22 PM

[D'iversify]

worrywort, on 11 March 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

On top of that, I would suggest that even stereotypical "manly" activities aren't disappearing, and plenty of men still do them...it's just that a) they are increasingly less exclusive to men, and men who have no interest in those activities are freer to do whatever else they want. Both cases in relative terms, of course. But this notion of the disappearing Man is an illusion. These exceptions to the "rule" -- which was only a rule by imposition of the vicious cycle amph mentions anyway -- have always existed. And the recognition of their existence shouldn't feel like such a threat, unless your comfort level is predicated on their suppression.

Something limp-wristed intellectuals like myself are frankly glad of - why should I be expected to be able to repair a car engine just cause I'm male? Especially as there seems to be an open tendency, likely ever since education was opened up to women and therefore was no longer a male privilege, to equate intelligence with femininity and masculinity with sub-neanderthal skullbutting and general retardation.