[Xerxes]

I know I say this exact same thing just a few posts up there ^^^ but... This book was basically pointless except for about 4 chapters worth of stuff. Apart from that it exists purely to get us to the next book. It's the literary equivalent of a travelator. You use them in the airport to move you on but basically you know it's needlessly lazy and you could just as easy walk. This is SE's travelator, a lazy arsed way to move us all on a bit. But we all feel a bit guilty for using it.

I've done that shitty metaphor to death now so I'll move on.

[NefaraisBredd]

I can sympathize with.the frustration that people encounter when they read ICE as opposed to SE. ICE lacks the depth and smooth storytelling of SE. I also find that ICE cannot/will not develop characters as fully as his counterpart and his writing doesnt avoid the 'tropes' but rather embraces them.

[Tarcanus]

Pardon the necro, but I just finished BnB the other day and am going through the BnB board to clarify some things and whatnot.

After reading this thread and all of the complaints and defending that have gone on, here are my thoughts:

Overall, I think ICE was mostly interested in showing off the setting. The jungle was amazingly done and you really felt like it was bogging you, the reader, down just like it was bogging the characters down. That said, I think he used the characters to showcase the setting poorly. The best example is the Avowed's boat cruise. Nothing much really happens here other than descriptions of the jungle and the scene with the Brethren where we get their manifestation for the first time. Most of the cruise could've been trimmed to only have that manifestation since that seemed to be the only relevant plot point. All the rest of it was Shimmer making guesses and K'azz being vague. Or Rutana being vague. All of that could have been cut without damaging the integrity of the story that many people in this thread are defending.

I also agree that in the bigger picture of the story, Jatal's storyline was pointless and was only a device used to show an outsider's perspective of Kallor. Kallor, having been given PoV in the main Malazan sequence, should have been a PoV in BnB. If ICE wanted to show Kallor from the PoV of an outsider, he should have used Scarza, since he was an interesting part-Trell and could have dropped hints on the Trell race that would've been neat. Scarza could have then been the one to chase Kallor into the jungle.

I really liked Saeng and Hanu's progression, along with Pon-Lor. But I think their convergence was a clusterfriend. I get that Saeng had to wrest control of the power from the 'Turgs by letting it course through her so she can guide it somewhere else and that since it was a temple of Light that Thyrllan would make an appearance, but the entire 'Turg ritual should have been clarified more. When did they find out that Kallor was coming and why did they immediately jump to trying to bring down a Visitor again? ICE seemed to go to great pains to show how awful the 'Turg society is but never let us into their motivations. You'd think we would've gotten that from Golan or Pon-Lor, but nope.

Speaking of Golan, he and his army were a wasted opportunity. ICE used the army to showcase the jungle, just like he was doing with Saeng, the Avowed, and the Malazans. It was unnecessary thematic bloat. I get that they were supposed to be some of the humor in the book, but when set against how it wasn't needed(Pon-Lor's detachment could have been made into the distraction instead of Golan's) it just falls flat and no amount of Thorn's dry humor can save it.

I really liked Osserc's role in the story up until he does whatever it is he does at the end. The whole Light storyline starts with Kyle in RotCG and keeps on having bits added to it. BnB gives Osserc the kick in the pants to realize sitting back and pretending to be in control is actually the same as not having any control. It was a vital realization for Osserc to have. Including Gothos was just icing. But it is not clear AT ALL what Osserc does at the end. From what I remember, L'oric and Spite just find him unconscious in the jungle - it's not clear if he was caught in the stream of power from the Temple of Light(most likely) or if he was caught in the explosion of power between T'riss and Ardata(since the descriptions from the Malazans and Avowed made it seem like their power was scorching everything in a huge radius around them). Then throw in that there was never a description of the Visitor impacting, and the narrative just jumped to saying the Visitor was now moving away - I'm uncertain as to what Osserc even jumped in the way of. It makes it sound like Saeng's controlling of the Light power is what tore apart the 'Turgs' ritual and re-routed the Visitor(in conjunction with events from tCG), but if that's the case, what did Osserc get blasted by? That whole segment was a jumbled mess.

When it comes to the Malazans and Disavowed, I think they both had the same purpose story-wise - to collect pieces of Kaminsod and bring them to where they could be dealt with. The Malazan plot was, I think, where ICE should have concentrated his efforts on the jungle setting instead of using multiple storylines to do similar things. The Malazans tangoed with the locals, learned how to survive, dealt with the feral Soletaken - basically everything that Saeng and the Avowed did, but it made more sense. Plus it included the Kaminsod plot, which was very relevant.

The Disavowed plot was good until the Avowed and Disavowed just came back together with little fanfare when there should have been some kind of confrontation. I liked Skinner's demise, but I think people have a bad taste in their mouth with it because of how the rest of the book portrayed his badassedness. Mara and Petal did nothing more than a lot of waiting for Skinner to limp back from whatever badass thing he just had to kill. It got old by the third time he did it. Then for the Disavowed the just come back to the fold without any of the more angry-seeming members having even a verbal sparring match with Shimmer or K'azz? It was unbelievable.

T'riss's plot was believable for the reasons stated earlier - that she had a part to play in the final tCG convergence. Her role was to free up the last bits of the Crippled God so they could successfully get rid of all bits of him from Wu. She was also meant to be transportation for the Malazans post-convergence and fix Ardata's mental state by freeing the jungle from her time warp influence.

Overall, I think the book suffered from too much build up for the returning characters, being on the wrong side of keeping things too vague for the readers, and ICE's desire to show off the setting at the expense of padding the book with unnecessary PoVs. Golan's entire thing could've been replaced by Pon-Lor's expedition. The Adwami could've been scrapped as PoV and instead had Kallor and Scarza PoVs without losing anything. The Avowed needed much less page time since all they did was be vague and show off the jungle. Osserc's actions needed a bit more clarification, too.

[Saitama]

I was just slightly dissapointed.

+ worldbuilding - the whole Himatan jungle was great
+ easy to read

- As always, the ending feels rushed. Bunch of people walking around the jungle only to arrive just in time to the place they need to be.
- As always, anticlimatic villains. Lol at the thaumaturg high mages dying like flies to a sick and crippled mage, Kallor getting hit by a rock offscreen and Skinner getting himself killed because he didn't want to get back to his crazy ex.
- Characters that feel like their sole purpose is to advance the story

Tarcanus above makes some good points, but after reading all of ICE's books in short succession, I'm beginning to doubt in his (ICE's) vision. T'riss involvement for the CG parts makes sense, but in the actual book I didn't pick up anything suggesting that she cares abut that particular issue. Maybe I missed it. But sometimes I feel like ICE makes me play 'connect the dots' on a blank page.

[nacht]

Second Sword, on 29 July 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

I was just slightly dissapointed.

+ worldbuilding - the whole Himatan jungle was great
+ easy to read

- As always, the ending feels rushed. Bunch of people walking around the jungle only to arrive just in time to the place they need to be.
- As always, anticlimatic villains. Lol at the thaumaturg high mages dying like flies to a sick and crippled mage, Kallor getting hit by a rock offscreen and Skinner getting himself killed because he didn't want to get back to his crazy ex.
- Characters that feel like their sole purpose is to advance the story

Tarcanus above makes some good points, but after reading all of ICE's books in short succession, I'm beginning to doubt in his (ICE's) vision. T'riss involvement for the CG parts makes sense, but in the actual book I didn't pick up anything suggesting that she cares abut that particular issue. Maybe I missed it. But sometimes I feel like ICE makes me play 'connect the dots' on a blank page.

It appears that T'riss convinced Ardata to sit this game out, i.e. not make her own play for the Crippled God's power.
Didn't think of this before but Ardata's agents are Mogora, Skinner and too some extent Mappo and none of them had a substantial role with what happened to the Crippled God.

[Saitama]

I'm not so sure about that 'convincing' part. When T'riss arrived to meet with Ardata, the whole 'gathering of parts' was pretty much over if I remember correctly. Not to mention the fact that Skinner was doing the job quite competently without any assistance from T'riss or hindrance from Ardata. It was only when he decided to march directly into her city her higher level guards decided to act.

So for the theory to make sense, she should have arrived way earlier. While the CG parts were being gathered, she was still travelling.

And I think that Skinner played a large part in the events - I don't remember actual number, but he got at least two, if not more, of the CG chunks. That is pretty much direct involvement.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

That's because Skinner was working on behalf of the Crippled God at that point. Which is likely why Ardata killed Skinner - or at least separated him from his armor.

[Saitama]

I didn't pick up anything in the course of the book that would suggest that Ardata cares about the CG issue at all. For me, her dealing with Skinner was purely personal.

In DoD, I think, elder gods mention her absence even for their standards. All throughout the BaB, Himagatan is described essentialy as Ardata's happy little place, isolated from the outside world. When we finally meet her, she even bends time slightly to keep some things unchanged. It doesn't make any sense for T'riss not to know this, and even less sense for her as Ardata's greatest (?) enemy to go and convince her to do what she did for the past millenium: nothing.

Moreover, she confronts Ardata when the CG issue is pretty much resolved.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Ardata was Skinner's patron, which is why she gave him the armor he wore. Then he goes and serves the House of Chains, in service of the Crippled God, essentially betraying his patron and not at all acting in her interests.because of that, Ardata may seek to get involved in the situation with the Crippled God, and T'riss, who is not necessarily Ardata's greatest enemy, intercedes before that can happen, also forcing her to step out of her time-bubble..

Also, Celeste's conversation with Murk at the end reveals that perhaps it was not Ardata who ruled Himatan, but rather that she served Himatan.

Quote

'Yes. We are all gone now. All my brothers and sisters. Far to the west the Shattered God has been sent onward – allowed to translate into another existence – however you wish to put it. As have I.'
Murk's brows rose in wonder. Really? Something happening in the west? 'Well, as I said before, I wish you luck with Ardata.'
The girl tilted her head, puzzled. 'Ardata?'
'Yeah. You know – this entity you chose.'
The girl laughed, a hand going to her mouth. 'Oh, Murk! Not her. She is as nothing next to that which I have reached out to. She would be a trickling stream compared to the ocean I have found here.'
Murk stared, his brows furrowed. An ocean? Here? Whatever could she mean? 'I'm sorry … I don't …'
Celeste extended her arms outwards as if to encompass their entire surroundings. 'I'm sorry, I keep forgetting your human biases and preconceptions. I speak not of any one individual being as you would know it, Murk. I speak of all this.
Everything about us. I speak of what you name Himatan itself.'
Murk's brows now rose in earnest. 'Oh. Oh … That's … amazing, Celeste.'
She was nodding her agreement. 'Amazing, yes. Fascinating. Infinitely absorbing. The complexity. The interrelationships. It will perhaps take a millennium just to fully comprehend one part of it. And in its own way it is aware, Murken. It responds. It takes steps to assure its continued existence. It is an entity in those regards – no different from any lower-order being, such as yourself.'
Lower-order being? 'Ah, well, I see. I think. Then, you are not gone? Not faded away?'
A soft smile answered that question. 'No, Murken. Thank you for your concern. No. It was your advice that saved me. Your encouragement gave me the strength to take that irreversible step before the greater part of myself was sent onward – towards dissipation, or who knows what. I remain now as part of that which you name Himatan. Thanks to you.' She clasped her hands before her and bowed. 'So, farewell, Murken Warrow. May you find acceptance and belonging, as I have.'

Moreover, I'm not so sure T'riss' confrontation with Ardata takes place after Kaminsod was killed or not. In fact it was pretty much concurrent.

Quote

A flash blinded Shimmer then – coming out of the west. She blinked, quite dazzled, and rubbed at her eyes. Everyone round her was cursing the light. Then Lor screamed. Shimmer groped for her. She blinked away tears as she searched for her through dark spots floating before her eyes. She found her writhing on the ground, her hands at her face. Fresh blood smeared her eyes, mouth and nose. She was whimpering as if beyond agony.
'What is it?' Shimmer demanded, yelling.
'The Warrens,' Lor gurgled through a mouthful of blood. 'Struck!'

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 31 July 2014 - 02:08 PM

[nacht]

Second Sword, on 31 July 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'm not so sure about that 'convincing' part. When T'riss arrived to meet with Ardata, the whole 'gathering of parts' was pretty much over if I remember correctly. Not to mention the fact that Skinner was doing the job quite competently without any assistance from T'riss or hindrance from Ardata. It was only when he decided to march directly into her city her higher level guards decided to act.

So for the theory to make sense, she should have arrived way earlier. While the CG parts were being gathered, she was still travelling.

And I think that Skinner played a large part in the events - I don't remember actual number, but he got at least two, if not more, of the CG chunks. That is pretty much direct involvement.

With ICE, you have to read between the lines (not saying that is good or bad) and that leads to speculation.

We have this discussion between Mael and T'riss

Quote

'You see?' she told the man. 'They never do what you want them to.'
'Our problem in a walnut, T'riss,' answered the man. 'Always has been.'
'You know my answer.'
The fellow wiped a blunt paw across his unshaven jowls. 'It's not for everyone,' he said 'especially coming from you.'
'It's time.'
'But can you convince her of that?'
The Enchantress shook her head. 'I cannot convince her of anything.'

Ardata is worshiped quite a bit and therefore has influence.
The gods all fear Ardata and they don't know when she is upto. She is like a force sitting in her castle and the other players are just not sure what she is going to do?

What is T'riss trying to convince Ardata to do? Is it to let her kid go? (Seems like to an odd time to do this)

Why is Mogora so entwined with the Magus of Shadow?

[nacht]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 31 July 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

That's because Skinner was working on behalf of the Crippled God at that point. Which is likely why Ardata killed Skinner - or at least separated him from his armor.

I didnt think of this before but this makes sense.
It seemed overwhelmingly personal but the fact that he pledged allegiance to another god might have been very upsetting.
She did give him a chance to come back.

[Saitama]

Even if Ardata is an enigma to other elders, she isn't for T'riss - she evidently knows a lot about her and she should be able to predict her behaviour - and I think she did.

Spoilsport Stonny, on 31 July 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

Moreover, I'm not so sure T'riss' confrontation with Ardata takes place after Kaminsod was killed or not. In fact it was pretty much concurrent.

That is exactly my point. If T'riss was there to convince Ardata about not getting involved in the CG business, she would have done it when there was time to influence the events. At the point of their 'conversation', there is nothing Ardata can do - even if she wanted to.
The longer I read ICE's book, the more I am convinced that 'reading between the lines' is just our overcompensating for his unclear writing and rushed endings.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Or she would have done it EXACTLY when the convergence was happening in Kolanse, thus distracting her and keeping her busy.

[nacht]

Second Sword, on 31 July 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

Even if Ardata is an enigma to other elders, she isn't for T'riss - she evidently knows a lot about her and she should be able to predict her behaviour - and I think she did.

Spoilsport Stonny, on 31 July 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

Moreover, I'm not so sure T'riss' confrontation with Ardata takes place after Kaminsod was killed or not. In fact it was pretty much concurrent.

That is exactly my point. If T'riss was there to convince Ardata about not getting involved in the CG business, she would have done it when there was time to influence the events. At the point of their 'conversation', there is nothing Ardata can do - even if she wanted to.
The longer I read ICE's book, the more I am convinced that 'reading between the lines' is just our overcompensating for his unclear writing and rushed endings.

I don't think the freeing of the crippled god was planned to an exact schedule. Skinner is collecting the pieces in the story.

[Saitama]

Distracting her from what? At this point, Ardata cannot do anything anyway.


She could have been a problem, but only until a certain point in time. But it has passed - CG's body was already put back together. Suggesting that T'riss was there to somehow prevent Ardata from acting implies that she (Ardata) has some game breaking powers to influence the events already in motion. But that is too far into the speculation zone for me.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

She had a few reasons, one of them being the crippled god, one of them being Ardata was caught up in a weird freaky time thing that wasn't altogether healthy for her or her worshipers. And as it stands, the "refugees" living in Himatan were also worshiping her, and it was probably pissing off Himatan itself. But who knows what all of T'riss' motivations were? Maybe she just wanted her sister back so she would stop messing with shit that fucked up the balance. And like Dadding quoted above, that scares the rest of the gods.

[Saitama]

While I enjoy reading ICE's book in general, I noticed a glaring flaw wich he never really corrects: inconsitency. Case in point: K'azz. Here is a simplified chain of events: he doesn't want to go, but Rutana tells him that 1. Ardata knows some things about the vow 2. The dolmens are under attack. He gets convinced by the second point, but then he completely ignores this supposed 'danger' and goes directly to Ardata. Who, it turns out, does not know anything about the vow after all. All of this was simply a plot device ICE used in order to have his convergence in the ending. He gives K'azz reasons to go on a journey, but those are merely excuses for moving plot forward - they are discarded when not needed anymore. That is bad writing.

And yes, we may come up with theories that explain it. Just like we can assume that Ardata was a part in a greater conflict over CG parts. But there is nothing in the book that would allude to both of those. It is, in short, pure speculation on our part. Occam's Razor says: 'among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected'. If we have to resort to writing fan fiction to explain some events, then it is probably just a case of bad writing.

Though, I admit to a slight manipulation - only the K'azz example is ICE's fault. T'riss/CG theory is ours. Unless someone can point me a direct quote, I assume that it is just a case of wishful thinking for the book to be a bigger part of the story than it is.

Spoilsport Stonny, on 31 July 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

Maybe she just wanted her sister back so she would stop messing with shit that fucked up the balance.

That is my reasoning. After all, somewhere in the beggining she mentions that she is going on a journey to do something 'long overdue' or sth like that. While it does not exclude additional motives, it is the only one clearly stated. And given ICE's tendency to sacrifice internal consistency for action, I don't trust him anymore to speculate like that.

[worry]

I dunno if that's a flaw really. I mean the dolmens get K'azz to agree to go, but it doesn't make him captain of the boat they're on. He's going where it's going, period.

[Saitama]

He decides to prevent some sort of a crisis/danger. And then he forgets about it. So... either it was not a serious danger, which would be weird since he really didn't want to go Himatan, or he really likes boats. No wonder some people would rather go with Skinner.
At some points in the journey he resists Rutana, so it's not like he is merely going with the flow.

[Tarcanus]

Not to mention, if he was really concerned with the dolmens there would have at least been a mention of him butting heads with Rutana when he realized she was taking them in a different direction than the standing stones.