[Egwene]

A few thoughts on things said earlier...

I doubt K'azz forgot about the Dolmens however, by the time he got anywhere near, events had moved on. The attempt on the Dolmens had been made, alas not by Skinner as Ardata anticipated, but by Spite. Hence too late for K'azz to do anything about it. Can't remember if it is stated anywhere, but I would assume that either through his mages, the Brethren, Ardata's minions or his ability to know things he shouldn't know, K'azz was roughly aware of the situation involving the shard i.e. Skinner doesn't have it, someone has and they are moving in direction Ardata.

The attempt on the Dolmens was the deciding factor for K'azz, I seem to remember, not the supposed info about the vow. However, deprived of the opportunity to ask Ardata, he does get the info from T'riss that he needs to go to Assail for his answer. I am guessing that Ardata would only have told him the same thing.

The Malazan books are a lot about family ties. T'riss going to Ardata to convince her to let go of her daughter seems to fit right in with the motivations of many other characters. Ultimately, it's all about families, friendships and loyalties... or the lack of them. Even the conflict of the magic systems is based on the younger ones replacing the previous generation. My theory is that Ardata had to let go to keep the balance. Having one part of the universe stuck in the past probably would un-balance the natural succession happening everywhere else.

The conversation between Mael and T'riss... the question is who is 'they'. My guess is they are talking about their worshippers as the gods are always complaining about that point.

Spoiler

T'riss is Azathanai, so Ardata is likely one as well. Rather than worshippers one might have to think 'children' in the sense of most of them being the creators/patrons/champions of different races

[worry]

Yah still thinking that "flaw" is a stretch. If your ma said "Hey I'm taking you to the doctor for some shots" and you said "No way" and she said well we can also go get ice cream and you say "Okay, deal" -- there's no logic by which you'd be baffled that the doctor was still your first destination.

[Saitama]

1. Ardata cared about Skinner but K'azz didn't. And if he didn't, he still should have gone after the shard. Or mention it at least.
2. Mercs who took the shard at the beginning wanted to get out of the jungle, so essentially what Skinner would have done anyway. If K'azz wanted to prevent it from getting into the wrong hands, he should have followed. Spite is basically the definition of 'wrong hands', so there is that.

upworthywort, on 01 August 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

If your ma said "Hey I'm taking you to the doctor for some shots" and you said "No way" and she said well we can also go get ice cream and you say "Okay, deal" -- there's no logic by which you'd be baffled that the doctor was still your first destination.

If your ma realizes that you need shots from a doctor or something bad will happen, and promises you ice cream in return, then takes you out of the house but neither to a doctor nor for the ice cream, I question her parenting skills.

[worry]

Maybe your ma is Jenny McCarthy and she realizes vaccines are a hunk of junk and ice cream is full of antibiotics from sick dairy cows.

[Saitama]

But then why would she take the kid out of the house?
Maybe she decided that parenting was not really her thing. And the kid is sitting on the curb somewhere wondering when his mom will come back for him, cause it's getting dark and the homeless are eyeing him from around the corner...
Conclusion: ICE is homeless and has mysterious plans?

[worry]

Let's read Assail and find out.

[Saitama]

I am gonna read Assail soon, but I have a few more loose thoughts on BaB:

K'azz sets off with a purpose in mind, which everybody involved acknowledged and instantly forgot once they got on a boat. There was some kind of mindfuck going on, but it wasn't powerful enough to make them forget about it or else they would wonder what are they doing on the river in the first place. ICE didn't think things through or simply didn't care as long as there was action in the final pages of the story. And here, in my opinion, lies the root of the problem. All the inconsistencies that I had pointed out could be easily solved simply by adjusting the timing - make some characters arrive earlier, some later. But the tradeoff would be that the convergencies (and I use the word loosely here*) would not be as dynamic as they are when bunch of characters arrive at the same place almost simultaneously. ICE had a choice - action or integrity of the story. IMHO, he choose badly.

* All those characters/parties stumble around Himatan for weeks if not more, and they arrive at the two most important places within minutes of each other? Not to mention both Cowl, who was buried in the ground, and Osserc, who sat in one place so long that he was covered with cobwebs, made it just in time too. Despite being, you know, on a different contintent. But dramatic writing knows no borders.

[Egwene]

Second Sword, on 05 August 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

I am gonna read Assail soon, but I have a few more loose thoughts on BaB:

K'azz sets off with a purpose in mind, which everybody involved acknowledged and instantly forgot once they got on a boat. There was some kind of mindfuck going on, but it wasn't powerful enough to make them forget about it or else they would wonder what are they doing on the river in the first place. ICE didn't think things through or simply didn't care as long as there was action in the final pages of the story. And here, in my opinion, lies the root of the problem. All the inconsistencies that I had pointed out could be easily solved simply by adjusting the timing - make some characters arrive earlier, some later. But the tradeoff would be that the convergencies (and I use the word loosely here*) would not be as dynamic as they are when bunch of characters arrive at the same place almost simultaneously. ICE had a choice - action or integrity of the story. IMHO, he choose badly.

* All those characters/parties stumble around Himatan for weeks if not more, and they arrive at the two most important places within minutes of each other? Not to mention both Cowl, who was buried in the ground, and Osserc, who sat in one place so long that he was covered with cobwebs, made it just in time too. Despite being, you know, on a different contintent. But dramatic writing knows no borders.

Are you advocating a stagnant background story where everything goes to plan? That seems to go contrary to your second point. It's been said many times that every battle plan falls to pieces the moment battle commences and that's exactly what happened. Spite and the Malazans were an unknown factor to Ardata when she extended her invite to Kazz so they both had to adjust because the situation was no longer the same. Had there been no Spite, timing was such that Kazz would likely have met Skinner at the Dolmens.

Every convergence in the main series relies just as much on timing to the minute. That's the whole point of it, isn't it? Just one missed train and poof goes the meeting. If you don't like this sort of thing, you must have hated the main series which is full of them. One of the best examples being Rake, Hood and Dassem... the entire TtH book leads to them meeting in the centre of a crossroad. Or just think Tremolor... no different, really. In a way your observation is thus a great compliment to ICE!

[Saitama]

I don't think that K'azz had to adjust to anything - his aim was to prevent the CG part from being taken, be it by Skinner or anyone else, and he did precisely nothing to remedy that. Ardata was on her home turf, had the entire jungle population under her command (even if it wasn't absolute) and Rutana&co were not weaklings themselves. But she didn't act - neither before nor after Spite's party captured the shard. My point is that there was no plan at all here.

About the convergencies, I disagree. I loved them in the main series, not only because they are interesting, but also because they seem to be as much of a product of a careful planning (Rake&Hood was totally planned beforehand) as well as chance/mischance. In short: natural. My absolute favourite is the Path of Hands from Deadhouse Gates. Soletaken pursuing something that they feel more than know, some of them die in the process, but the rest slowly but steadily close in on their target... Pacing, tension, sense of danger.

There is no such subtlety in ICE's writing. It's all 'they were lost for weeks, but then all of them arrived in short succession to the same place'. How... convenient. Contrived, even.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Second Sword, on 05 August 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

I don't think that K'azz had to adjust to anything - his aim was to prevent the CG part from being taken, be it by Skinner or anyone else, and he did precisely nothing to remedy that. Ardata was on her home turf, had the entire jungle population under her command (even if it wasn't absolute) and Rutana&co were not weaklings themselves. But she didn't act - neither before nor after Spite's party captured the shard. My point is that there was no plan at all here.

K'azz left when he found out that the crippled god piece at the dolmens was a target of some people. But once they got to Himatan, Ardata took control of the boat they were on and ensured they would be on their way to her instead.

Quote

‘Shimmer,’ K’azz said, ‘what happened?’
‘I found the tiller unmanned.’
Rutana snorted at that, as if scornful.
‘You have something to say?’ Shimmer asked.
The woman nodded, her gaze defiant. ‘We may have had a pilot, Isturé, but another has been in control of the vessel for some time.’
‘Another? Who?’
Rutana smiled as she squeezed the bands indenting her upper arms. ‘Ardata, of course.’
The captain reappeared. ‘He’s not on the ship. Must’ve fallen overboard. We’ll have to go back to look for him.’
‘We are not going back, Captain,’ Rutana announced without breaking gaze with Shimmer.
‘Yes, we are,’ K’azz said. He motioned to Shimmer. ‘Turn us round.’
She clasped both hands on the long arm of battered wood and pushed. The broad tiller swung but somehow the ship did not respond. It continued its slow sluggish advance.
Rutana’s contemptuous smile climbed even higher. ‘There is no turning back now, Isturé.’ And she walked off.

I guess K'azz could have said something before they started travelling upriver, but he didn't. And obviously by this point, he couldn't. What's he gonna do fight everyone and get lost in the jungle? No he plays the game and waits. Which ends up working out for them, and the Dolmens thing doesn't really matter because Murk and Sour had already retrieved the McGuffin body part and would have left if their boat waited for them, which it didn't. So they traipse through the Himatan jungle too. By the time K'azz is able to do anything regarding the shard, it's already rejoined Kaminsod and was returned to its worshipers.

Second Sword, on 05 August 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

There is no such subtlety in ICE's writing. It's all 'they were lost for weeks, but then all of them arrived in short succession to the same place'. How... convenient. Contrived, even.

Kinda what makes these convergences all the more special.

Contrived? I don't know, maybe a little because its all the spoils of another man's imagination. But Murk & Sour, the Avowed & K'azz, the Disavowed and Skinner, and T'riss and he Seguleh all had different reasons for arriving at Jakal Viharn. If you didn't like them, fine, but its not like their motives stood out for any terrible reasons.

In hindsight, and after reading ASSAIL, the actual content of Blood and Bone makes a lot more sense and a lot of the conversations that seem to go nowhere hold up better. Its not the best Malaz book ever, but i think you're being too picky. Sure the story isn't as good, but these flaws are easily answered, or are subjective.

[Saitama]

K'azz demonstrated that, at the very least, he can force Rutana to stop the boat for a while. As you mentioned, the best place to do so would be before they sailed upriver. After all, the dolmens are not that far from the beach (I think) and K'azz knows the area at least a little bit. But if he decided to disembark somewhere else (within a reasonable distance) and march, well, they are the Avowed. They should be able to manage just fine.

The problem for me is that I wasn't given any insight into why K'azz stopped caring and why none of his squad members pointed that out or even thought about it. Yes, there could be something that changed his mind, but if not the reason for it, at least give me acknowledgement of the fact that the reason exists. Lack of any kind of explanation on why the character takes a 180 degree turn in thinking doesn't make it deep and mysterious, it makes it internally inconsistent.

Spoilsport Stonny, on 05 August 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Kinda what makes these convergences all the more special.

For you, its special. For me, its like something from a generic forgotten realms novel - arriving just in time, every time. True, that is the point of most stories. But a skilled writer should be able to fool the reader into believing in the illusion of an objective reality. Here, after the 3rd or so party arrived in Jakal Viharn within minutes of each other I was rolling my eyes, even though I enjoyed the actual confrontation. In the temple, everybody showed up exactly on time (the priestess to stop the mages, a half dead delirious mage to help her, Osserc to save the day). It is not bad, but it is disapointing.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Well, I suspended my disbelief when the guy with a tiger head showed up.

[Saitama]

Yeah, that guy... I was expecting more from him with all that stuff going on. Guess some wild cats are kittens at heart.

[tiam]

Indeed a missed opportunity there I feel. ICE had the Ryllandaras plotline in ROCTG so could have expanded with this other creature known to be a power. I would have loved to have seen more entities hiding in the jungle, like Mael was in the Letherii backwaters. It would have fleshed out Himatan alot more aswell

SS Stonny- Im glad Assail clears some things up but really B and Bone is ICEs weakest book.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

tiam, on 08 August 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

SS Stonny- Im glad Assail clears some things up but really B and Bone is ICEs weakest book.

I can't really argue with you if you didn't like it. I thought it was a good story, but felt like filler. It seemed to stretch out a tale in a direction it didn't need to go, and didn't really clear anything up.

It was more an action vessel for chatacters we would like to know more about, historically. Maybe we get that with the Khark trilogy, but even if not, it left a lot of questions unanswered and raised more.

But i still really liked it and it felt like a real Malaz book. That's the hard part.

[Ulrik]

I must add myself to Disappointed crowd... Not so bad as OST, but it was close race...

Good thing (obviously - spoilers)

1 - Jungle was cool. Really, I liked ICE's depiction of the Himatan, it was vivid and really, really god.
2 - The whole unfortunate army expediton was fun, because it reminded many military engagements which failed because of nature... and Thorn was funny.
3 - Murk and Sour had enough of malazan style in their sotry arc, they were interesting.

And now bad parts...

- People act randomly, because ICE wants them to. Skinner has absolutely no reason to march through jungle to Ardata. He is hunting shards, OK, but he is doing it by jumping through continents. He isn intereted in Thaumaturgs goal and he isnt interested in metting (and mating) with Ardata. So why the hell are Disavowed marching and in final getting killed in Himatan? Becuase K'azz is there and because Skinner has to die for Assail. Damn, that was weak. And Skinner's death was underwhelming. "Sorry Ardy, wont come back, just came here to say you to bugger off and I dont suppose Elder Godess would do something to hurt me...not in my special armory she made me herself...no, thats not possible." Jesus, this was like cheap movie twist.

- K'azz. Something happens to dolmen! Ah, who cares about them? Just let the river to take into deadly jungle. No, I wont tell you this. Not even Cowl will tell. Veeery mysterious... To be continued in Assail! Eh... it was absurd. Whole journey of Avowed was just meant to arrive in same time as Skinner (who had no other reason to go there) to unite them. But i admit, part with Shimmer, Maru, Petal and Vow retrospective was nice.

- Kallor - What the hell?? Whole TtH developement is in dust. Kallor is just really, really old sociopat. OK. No depth, just hard man without ability to understand emotions, two dimensional character.

- Jatal - Hell. It was so promising at the beginning. In the final it was ad absurdum fulfilled lovestory without love. Hollow ending with character I wasnt interested anymore.

- Saeng and Hanu - I would say Mhybe of BnB, but I actually liked Mhybe. Saeng was annoying, her journey (and not just her) empty and when something good appeared (Old Man Moon) it went away as fast as you can say "Ardata has daughter".

- Ardata, Triss and Daughter - What the ... ? I would say deux ex machina, but it would be cheap pun and it wasnt deus ex machina. Yeah, Ardata has daughter, great revelation...so? And we have Seguleh! Because there cant be ICE book without Seguleh. OK, there is, but Ina story was simply so insignificant. "I lost arm, I want to die, I do not want to die, because I like Adrada's daughter, like in a second I saw her and took her to safety. Im complete."

OK, maybe, maybe some thing will be solved in Assail (whole CG apparently) but it doesnt make BnB good book. I did not enjoyed it and honestly, Im glad Assail is last book because grinding through few hundred pages just because its from my favourite universe isnt worth of it. I like Night of Knives in its chaotic, but compressed style and RotCG even with its own weaknesses and surprisingly even Stonewielder, but after OST and BnB Im not looking forward to Assail... and still, I have to read it, because its damned Assail!