[theocean]

Can anyone explain it to me a little more... how it happens, what it means, how they i guess rank in power levels compared to the other beings in malazan...

[Dwolf63]

Extrapolating from all we get to see, there are various paths to ascendancy, but they all revolve around one thing:

Erickson seems to buy into the concept of Consentual Reality - the idea that if enough people believe something, then that something becomes real. This extends to the gods of his world. Gods are somewhat controlled and shaped by their worshipper's beliefs.

So what are ascendants? They are individuals who display, over the course of their lives, an ability to implacably exert their will on the world around them, and low and behold, at some point reality starts to bend to their will.

This most commonly happens with mages (and priests) who learn to hone their will by learning to manipulate the warrens. Most never really amount to much. The others reach a point where either they learn to clamp down and fully control the power, or the power controls them.

But even non mages can move ahead on the road to ascendancy. Warriors who through shear will push their bodies to consistently pull off near impossible feats also are imposing their beliefs on reality. After a while these near impossible physical acts become easier and easier for them. An example of this would be Kalam acknowledging that when he fights everyone else seems to move in slow motion for him. His will and focus affect his perception of time and increase his reactions. (I think this is hinted at in Deadhouse Gates and it's not really a spoiler.

But ah, you say, Kalam is never mentioned as nearing ascendancy. Well, there seems to be another component to the ascendancy thing. Sooner or later, the would be ascendant has to surrender some part of their hold upon humanity (or tiste-anity, or whatever race they are-ity.) It's not that they stop being mortal, but they surrender their mortal limitations. It makes them both more powerful, and at the same time more vulnerable in some way.

From what we've seen as well, Ascendants are no longer affected by the ravages of time. One can say that they've become disjointed from the fabric of reality. As much as their will more easily shapes reality, reality has a harder time shaping them.

And those ascendants who find or acquire worshippers find themselves thrust into godhood - eventually - though it seems possible to resist that calling to some degree.

Pulling examples for all this would require quoting later books in the series and that could enter spoiler territory so I'll leave off here.

[theocean]

paran just doesnt seem to be anything special... was it all from him leaving the sword that made him the master of the deck or is their more to him.... im early in the book 3 memories of ice.

[D'iversify]

I think Dwolf explains it very nicely, though I think it's also worth pointing out that this capacity of the sentient will to impose itself upon reality is, in my view, enabled by the fact that the Malazan world is overflowing with raw power that is open to being shaped in a manner which our world is not. The most primal form of this raw power is inherent in life itself, which is why blood plays an important role in primitive magic. The Warrens are an external source of power, true, but their use depends on the capacity of the user to undo the divides between worlds, which implicitly requires power itself, which likely originates from the aforementioned primal force of life inherent in organisms. Use of and exposure to power, moreover, increases capacity to use power, but this use also physiologically changes the person after a certain level. Some of these changes lead towards ascendance. Ascendance is usually not directly the will of the one who ascends but a byproduct of their use or exposure to power - see Gesler, Stormy and Truth. As for Paran, it should be remembered that power and ascendance is also attained through place in the cosmic order - entrance into the Deck of Dragons may be serendipitous, but through occupation of a position of power, an ascending person becomes more powerful. It should also noted that when these positions are empty, either through absence of an occupant or new creation, occupation is much less difficult than if their is a pre-existing occupant who must first be dethroned. As Master of the Deck is a new posiion, Paran didn't need to be exceptionally powerful to take over it as long as he occupied it first. Perhaps think of positions in the Deck of Dragons in ecological terms, as niches, in which entry enables rapid growth in power due to all the resources of the niche now being available to the new occupant.

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 14 February 2013 - 03:52 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

OP asks a loaded question. In the beginning its good to look at Ascendency as a 'Power Up', bestowed by gods or perhaps some other higher power. The terms are almost synonymous, but as much gamers as ICE and SE are you simply cannot use that term in a serious fantasy lit saga. As you read on you will get a better idea of how it can be bestowed or how it affects the ascendant. Just know that they are not happenstances of convenience, ie deus ex machinas, but rather legitimate power ups that occur for particular reasons.

Enjoy!

[theocean]

the open seat point helped out a lot...

[Abyss]

Put another way, there is no hard and fast rule for ascension, and many, many ways to ascend.

Ascension isn't limited to anyone in particular... a human, Tiste or other race may ascend to being an Ascendant, an Ascendant can ascend to God-hood, a God can ascend to a different role in a pantheon or House. (Worth mentioning that someone can take on a role in a House without ever ascending, and a position in a Deck reading does not equal a position in a House.)

There are degrees... Stormy, Gesler and Coltaine back in DG were all on the brink of ascension, but it's debateable whether any of them actually did by the end of the book. Paran ascends to MoD, but remains mortal and 'normal' as far as we can tell in MoI. Trake, an ascendent, dies, ascends to Godhood, but then the Wolves RE-ascend to what might be the same position. MoK goes toe-to-toe with Tool, an undead Ascendent (in the sense that any Tlan Imass is considered to have ascended), and as far as we know Mok is 'only' human.

At root, ascension amounts to becoming more than what the being was.

There's more on this in later books.

[worry]

Everyone already covered the obvious, but occasionally it also refers to somebody who is moving up (rather than down) a flight of stairs, a ladder, anything like that.

[Abyss]

As opposed to people who have been thrown out a window, like WWort deserves for that post.

[worry]

Sure, sure, defenestrate the messenger.

[Abyss]

 worrywort, on 14 February 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Sure, sure, defenestrate the messenger.

Death is a possible means of ascension. You could luck out.

[worry]

Always thinking, this one ^^^^^^^^.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Ascension via descent?

[Dwolf63]

Interesting thought....

At the start of Memories of Ice, we see the Elder gods cursing Kallor - and one of the curses is "You shall never ascend".


Now, as I said earlier, everyone that ascends at some point surrenders some part of their humanity/mortality. Another thing they have in common is that, no matter what the trigger, in some way or manner, at some point, they "rise above themselves".


The original poster mentioned Paran as being nothing special. But hey, maybe he got drawn into the whole process by luck - (literally) - when he follows the hounds into the realm of Dragnipur, rather than freaking out, or thinking of himself, what did he do? He went out of his way to try to free the hounds. He had this incredibly strong desire to do the right thing. In a way, Paran rises above himself. If his journey in the sword is what solified his position as master of the deck, then it can be argued that his actions within the sword are what cemented it.

Back to Kallor then. The thing about Kallor is he never seems to truly rise above himself. Kallor is always Kallor - always concerned about Kallor. Now of course who knows what SE is actually thinking. But wouldn't it be fitting if the only thing that's really keeping Kallor from ascending is himself - that he became his own self fulfilling prophecy?

This post has been edited by Dwolf63: 15 February 2013 - 03:50 AM

[lastname]

The Appendix in MoI has a rather odd entry. There's a section called ... well, Ascendants and it has the following listing: Kallor, the High King.

So is that an error, or did Draconus' curse misfire?

[worry]

Neither. It's just shorthand in a glossary.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Stalking Stonny, on 15 February 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

Ascension via descent?

it's like SE an ICE read this thread before writing about

Spoiler

kellenved and dancer getting defenestrated of a cliff

that's the mindfuck

[The Hust Legion]

i always thought ascendents were those that were immortal , not really gods, they had merely ascended true death, charcaters like rake and kallor are not gods but are still classed as ascendents , it was just based on immortality and power like stormy and gesler who went trough a warren and bam ascendents

[Ruthan Good]

@ hust legion

Sort of, although to make an important point about Stormy and Gesler are not ascendant but on their path to it, which is a very important distinction. And more about people on the path to ascension in HoC