[worry]

Yah, he could have done that, but then it wouldn't have been as ideal for me. And I must choose me over you in this instance, I'm afraid. It's the only way.

[Tes'thesula]

Of course. I can only talk about what I thought was weak in the book.

[worry]

On the contrary, you have multiple options. Foremost, you could always choose to sever the ties that bind you there and walk beside me on this righteous path. Never deny yourself the choice.

[Puck]

I got here some pretty little something from TtH concerning the issue at hand, more or less..

Quote

'I am not the one to ask. Does the sun lift into the sky outside then collapse once more? Do bells sound to proclaim a control where none truly exists? Do mortal fools still measure the increments leading to their deaths, wagering pleasures against costs, persisting in the delusion that deeds have value, that the world and all the gods sit in judgement over every decision made or not made? Do —'
'Enough,' interrupted Rallick, straightening with only one hand against the wall. 'I asked “how long?” not “why?” or “what point?” If you don't know the answer just say so.'
[p. 89]

I dare call up the evil magic word introspection.

This post has been edited by Puck: 04 February 2013 - 01:08 AM

[tiam]

D, on 28 January 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 28 January 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

The book focuses mainly on the tiste who havnt exactly been a barrel of laughs throughout the main arc. What malazan banter weve seen was strictly the dark grim marine humour common to professional soldiers throughout this book. There were few strictly soldier pov sections and those we did see had scatterings of banter.it was the nature of those soldiers aswell, they were opportunistic rapers and bandits for the most part disgruntled at the diminuitive place in a society the fought and died to protect. The book had humour in other sections but the tone of this book drained alot of humour. Haut gothos korya even some azathanai banter was amusing but the main arc of this book was centred around a woman being gang raped on her wedding day by over a score of people. That was the resolution not a side plot like in moi but the main thrust and turning point of the book.

a} I would argue that the Tiste we see in GotM/MoI/TtH who have lived for 300 000 years should not necessarily act with the very same world weariness as when they had only lived for a few centuries, or in many cases only for a few decades.

b} Engrossing characters != witty banter. I believe the OP was lamenting the lack of the first (in their opinion), using the second as an example, but everyone in this thread seems to have read it as the OP saying the second was required for the first.

Im not for a second suggesting the OP is 'out of line' with his opinion or anything though I see that the thread has somewhat diverged into its either whinging or good characterization, which makes it a subjective cyclical debate. I dont really think you can say because a race lives 300 000 years that they shouldnt be weary after a long drawn out conflict with the Forulkan and on the brink of civil war. These Tiste still have social occasions a sense of identity, community etc and are not the ghosts that have only one or two hobbies after such a time we see in TTH (mainly). For example Orfantal is a child yet still shows some weary POV sections as does Gripp who has a lifetime of campaigning under his belt. Crokus is a young man yet has alot of world weariness in his POV sections so I dont reall think you can call timeline on it. The 300 000 year old is also up for grabs as although it looks set in stone being before the ritual Tista who are 2000 years old are considered ancient.

In any case what I was getting at is that there is a military campaign in all of the Malazan books yet this one didnt really have one, simply a few set piece battles near the end. As such the on-the-march humour we were used to wasnt evident, yet there were excellent portions of humour throughout usually from the non Tiste POV sections like the Jaghut. The Tiste however make up the bulk of the book and their plotline centred around a gangrape at a wedding. This will undoubtedly be the catalyst for all sorts in the future, however at this moment it was a tragic event that affected all our POV characters. As a result of this it would be out of place to have humour.

Anyway I thought the book was very grim but very well written.

[worry]

One might argue that they are so morose in the modern age because they were transformed at this particular point in FoD time. Imagine if Americans had been made immortal -- and magic-imbued inertia set in -- during the Great Depression, or the Vietnam era. It'd be a whole different beast than if you did something similar to the attendees of Woodstock at the height of Janis Joplin's set or something like that.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

worrywort, on 05 February 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

It'd be a whole different beast than if you did something similar to the attendees of Woodstock at the height of Janis Joplin's set or something like that.

Do NOT take the brown semenkelyk.

[NefaraisBredd]

Immortality is depressing, just ask Spinnock Durav, korlat, Draconus,etc. There is some humour in FoD, especially when the Jaghuts start showing up. FoD is hard, cynical and biting humour that sticks to yer ribs and pokes yer spleen. Arathan learns.humour (amongst other things) when he went on his Quest. What better teacher of tragic comedy than a Jaghut, eh? Also, the humour is deep and you.gotta work to see it if you aren't morbid/morose/sardonic/cynical in your comedic tastes. In response to the comment about whinging- if the reader does not have an interest or an anthropological perspective mixed with an.understanding of.mythology, it can seem like whinging. However, rape, ritual eating of the dead and the.portrayal of action off of the stage are all ancient devices.of masterful storytelling. If you want action so bad, watch a Michael Bay movie. This author (Erikson) is not prosaic and will let you down if you want formulaic novels where the good guy always wins and the dialogue reeks of dogma and is so direct that it is almost like reading a screenplay. So, I am saying tha FoD is full of 'gallows humour' and it probably sets the stage very nicely for the war that drove them into the Malazan world. Never give up, never surrender!-peter Quincy taggert-

**Also consider.how.much.crnage and mayhem will be happening in the following book(s)!
_------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have fat thumbs and a small keypad, what's yer excuse?

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 27 August 2013 - 08:36 AM

[NefaraisBredd]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 06 February 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

worrywort, on 05 February 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

It'd be a whole different beast than if you did something similar to the attendees of Woodstock at the height of Janis Joplin's set or something like that.

Do NOT take the brown semenkelyk.

L M A O! Now., that was Funny!

[Kanese S's]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 28 January 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

Im sorry to beat a dead horse here, but I don't know what kind of humor people would prefer to the humor that was present. Was the Spite/Envy/Malice parts not funny? True, dark as all hell, but it was leaps and bounds better than, I don't know, Death Becomes Her, for lack of a better piece of crap. The previously mentioned jaghut parts were funny in their own way, and that wasn't just some made up thing as we've seen their humor before.In the end, the book was supposed to mirror the great tragedies and it does, while also having enough relief to not cheapen the actual tragedies. I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed Forge of Darkness. As a reward for being a patient reader, it was payoff through and through, and I just don't think that a lack of humor in a book that is specifically trying to shift tone should in any way count against it.

I didn't find the Spite/Envy/Malice parts funny.

I did, however, find the Jaghut parts quite amusing. So very very dry. So I agree that it's not devoid of humor, and the humor it has is of a type appropriate to this story, that makes sense with the setting.

The tone of this book is different, yes, but it's supposed to be. To me, the word that most describes the book, or at least most of it, is "bleak." Specifically that word.

[Mythodikal]

Hello all,
I couldn't remember my original user name as uptoolate so now I write as Mythodikal. I just wanted to respond in turn after some amazing responses by others. Without getting too far into it since it has now been ages since reading this book, I am currently at Reapers Gale in yet another re-read. I just wanted to relay my appreciation to those of you that actually caught my meaning, even though some of you didn't agree when you did understand. Not agreeing I appreciate, the not understanding is what dismays me. A large portion of you have taken the meaning of my OP as me saying I don't appreciate the huge philosophical debates that come from these books, or the huge growth of characters that find their place in humanity, Itkovian, Trull, or Onrack for example. These story lines I loved, scratch that love every time I re-read them... The problem I had was that, for me, it wasn't anyone having a moral epiphany that was the issue. It was the fact that EVERYONE was having a moral epiphany, and it most cases it was before I was invested in the character enough to actually care they had this world changing view on the working of society... It wasn't a revelation that someone was coming to this new way of viewing their existence, it was example after example of everyone feeling this way. It was almost more rare if you weren't the one having a huge comment on the crappy workings of society... I don't know I guess I just felt there were too many visionaries which took the magnitude from the message that was being delivered.
The mistake I've read is you guys not thinking I appreciate this challenging of the way we think... I LOVE IT! It's when every storyline has that same message it takes the power out of it. I didn't dislike the message I just thought it was so watered down and the power was taken from it because it seemed that was every storyline, no one was breaking borders or standing out.
I hope that explains my view better.
Cheers.

[Egwene]

Puck, on 04 February 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

I got here some pretty little something from TtH concerning the issue at hand, more or less..

Quote

'I am not the one to ask. Does the sun lift into the sky outside then collapse once more? Do bells sound to proclaim a control where none truly exists? Do mortal fools still measure the increments leading to their deaths, wagering pleasures against costs, persisting in the delusion that deeds have value, that the world and all the gods sit in judgement over every decision made or not made? Do —'
'Enough,' interrupted Rallick, straightening with only one hand against the wall. 'I asked “how long?” not “why?” or “what point?” If you don't know the answer just say so.'
[p. 89]

I dare call up the evil magic word introspection.

Thank you Puck. Reading through this thread in one sitting, that really made me laugh. It's such a fitting quote (although no one here is quite as emphatic as Rallick in their view on ponderings and the original poster was making a slightly different point anyway... still... ). Thanks again :-)

I have literally just started FoD. Given SE's comments I was expecting something maybe more serious than the main series. Interesting to read all the comments here on what to expect.

Firstly, thank you to the original poster for pondering the question of 'overdose or not' where moral ponderings are concerned. I totally understand what you are trying to say and although I do very much enjoy the ponderings by characters (which is why I enjoyed Toll the Hounds whilst many didn't), I also like the more light-hearted aspects like the banter between the Malazan soldiers and I do believe that on the whole the world is divided between those who ponder for a pastime and those who don't - so expect that to be reflected in books, I guess. So who knows - I might yet join you in your rant.

In the meantime... Focusing too much on philosophy in a book that isn't classed as being of the Philosophy genre is always going to be controversial. I am hoping that the quality of the ponderings is going to be such that, as in parts of the main series, I will judge them on their individual merit rather than on whether it is justified to have another one already.

I shall try and read the trilogy as something separate and not expect to get the fix of 'Malazan' that I am used to. Maybe think of it more as fantasy poetry than fantasy fiction :-)

[kempster]

worry, on 28 January 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Remember that Jaghut whose wiener was so long that his loin cloth didn't cover but half of it? That's basically all I asked for after TCG, and FOD served it up raw and ready. You won't catch me whinging about that, I tell you what. Everything else was just icing on the cake.

You just made me almost choke to death from laughing so damn hard.

Naughty naughty!

Cheers Worry!