[nacht]

I think B&B is a better home for an Old Man discussion..

I suspect this guy is really really important.. Maybe even the Zeus of the gods, i.e. the father of them all.

1. Event Draconus (the alpha male of Elder gods) calls him an Old Man.
2. He has no name (I think this is significant because he may not desire to be worshipped)
3. He only "choose" to mirror the aspect of the Moon. It is possible all the other Azathanai had been bound to their aspect without their choice.
4. His real power seems to be healing (Perhaps he is the source of Denul)
5. He actually takes the responsibility of warning Draconus. It clearly seems like interference in another Azathani affairs (Grizzin warns but that is his job. Olar had a personal relationship with Draconus)
6. The aspect of healing is to some extent the opposite of chaos

[Defiance]

It's possible that he's the progenitor of the Azathanai, but I don't think he's the Creator himself. Everything we've seen in Erikson's universe so far seems to deny such a creator figure. Every time we think we've discovered where each race came from, we find something out that gives them yet another ancestor. I know many of us imagined that Mother Dark was the creator, but once again she's just another piece in this cosmological puzzle.

[nacht]

Defiance, on 25 January 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

It's possible that he's the progenitor of the Azathanai, but I don't think he's the Creator himself. Everything we've seen in Erikson's universe so far seems to deny such a creator figure. Every time we think we've discovered where each race came from, we find something out that gives them yet another ancestor. I know many of us imagined that Mother Dark was the creator, but once again she's just another piece in this cosmological puzzle.

Yeah, that was what was surprising (and tad disappointing) about FoD. Creation is infintely far away (and the Tiste were just a regular fucked up civilization). It was kind of strange to see Draconus wondering about the stars and cosmos. But the Old Man seemed to have a "space/vacuum" aspect... And in the way he heals the moon, you can imagine him together the world of Wu :-)

Of course, it is all speculation. It is kind of interesting to see the need to understand how the world came about, even if it is a made up world. A validation of Jungian Archetypes perhaps :-)

[worry]

That notion of Denul is an interesting one. Given the moon with Mappo's healing, and the stuff in this book too. The only other rival to that would seem to be Caladan Brood who uses High Denul, but he never seems to be a progenitor of it.

[nacht]

This is a GotM quote regarding the moon during the birth of Silverfox.

Quote

The Moon now hung immediately overhead, so bright that Kruppe found he could not look at it directly.

...
...
...

"Unknown," K'rul replied. "Soul-shifting is a delicate thing. The woman was consumed in a conflagration. Her soul's first flight was carried on wings of pain and violence. More, she entered another ravaged body, bearing its own traumas. The child that is born will be like no other ever seen. Its life is a mystery, Kruppe." Kruppe grunted. "Considering her parents, she will indeed be exceptional." A thought came to him and he frowned. "K'rul, what of the first child within the Rhivi?" "There was none, Kruppe. The Rhivi woman was prepared in a manner unknown to any man." He chuckled. "Including myself." He raised his head. "This sorcery belongs to the Moon, Kruppe."

They continued watching the labors of birth. To Kruppe it seemed they waited more hours in the darkness than any normal night could hold. The Moon remained overhead, as if it found its position to its liking—or, he reconsidered, as if it stood guard over them.

This post has been edited by nacht: 18 February 2013 - 07:07 PM

[Randomander]

When reading FoD what really interested me the most was the way all of the Azathanai were put out on display for us at one time or another. Old man moon's appearance was one of the more impressive ones in my opinion, the way he was just emanating raw power potent enough to melt eyeballs, etc. but in BaB he's just a kindly old man who lives in a miniature hut who enjoys getting his butt tattooed from time to time. I feel like something of the (for lack of a better word) badass-ness of his character is lost to me and probably won't return. I understand that this is millennia later and there is potentially an infinity of possible reasonings for this "transformation" if you will, but I was still disappointed. I guess i just expected an epicly powerful god of gods to be a little more integral and interesting when brought back into the malazan world?

This post has been edited by Randomander: 23 May 2013 - 05:46 PM

[nacht]

Randomander, on 23 May 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

When reading FoD what really interested me the most was the way all of the Azathanai were put out on display for us at one time or another. Old man moon's appearance was one of the more impressive ones in my opinion, the way he was just emanating raw power potent enough to melt eyeballs, etc. but in BaB he's just a kindly old man who lives in a miniature hut who enjoys getting his butt tattooed from time to time. I feel like something of the (for lack of a better word) badass-ness of his character is lost to me and probably won't return. I understand that this is millennia later and there is potentially an infinity of possible reasonings for this "transformation" if you will, but I was still disappointed. I guess i just expected an epicly powerful god of gods to be a little more integral and interesting when brought back into the malazan world?

Excellent point. The characterizations by SE and ICE are quite different, with ICE showing a more tongue in cheek style.
But I think the tattoos seem to be symbolic of something. (not sure exactly what). Maybe, they are representative of "patterns" and the detection, creation and replication of patterns is a major indication of the progress of civilization.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Also important is who exactly is doin the tattoing, ie the high priestess of light, and the overall theme of the moons role in bringing light to darkness.

But yes, old man moon's (is it generally acknowledged that he is one and the same with FoD's old man? Or is that line still tenuous?) character is way different from the guy we were introduced to a mere several months prior.

Also Toll the Hounds taught us the power of words written on skin.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 24 May 2013 - 12:24 AM

[tiam]

its generally acknowledged since someone posted a good thread about how in FOD Old Man is content with a 'mere reflection' and there is a orb behind him. Convincing theory anyway.

Randomander- I agree it can take the edge of a character when you see his future self as we do with Old Man Moon, but this is millenia later. In FOD he is still fairly new and arrogant like all Azathanai and we know BandB is much much later. Also his quiet old man routine shouldnt shock. Its likely during the last hundred or so millenia he has become a god, lost his power, gained it again lost it again etc hundreds of times playing the game with other ascendants/gods. That he chooses to live his life humbly away from the power stage in a backwater of time with the rest of the old dangerous entities,happy for the safe refuge Himitan offers is very telling. Its similar to Mael hiding in Letheras really where the old ways are still used.

[The Hust Legion]

he kind of reminds me of the otataral dragon, in the way that he is the anathema to life. he kind of represents nothingness , and the cold brutality of it. but in FoD didnt draconus say he was young or something like that because he still hadn't picked a name. this makes me question the old sage aspect/progenitor aspect. and wtf was the thel akai disavowal thing?

[nacht]

The Hust Legion, on 29 May 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

he kind of reminds me of the otataral dragon, in the way that he is the anathema to life. he kind of represents nothingness , and the cold brutality of it. but in FoD didnt draconus say he was young or something like that because he still hadn't picked a name. this makes me question the old sage aspect/progenitor aspect. and wtf was the thel akai disavowal thing?

Draconus actually called him Old man and Arathan was surprised because he looked quite young.

Quote

'I am not interested in your prophecies, Old Man.'
Arathan frowned at that strange name, so contrary to this figure facing them.

This post has been edited by nacht: 29 May 2013 - 08:02 PM

[nacht]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 24 May 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

Also important is who exactly is doin the tattoing, ie the high priestess of light, and the overall theme of the moons role in bringing light to darkness.

But yes, old man moon's (is it generally acknowledged that he is one and the same with FoD's old man? Or is that line still tenuous?) character is way different from the guy we were introduced to a mere several months prior.

Also Toll the Hounds taught us the power of words written on skin.

The fact that Saeng is the high priestess of light is probably what made the Old Man popup in BaB.

Quote

He chuckled indulgently. 'No, child. Not itself, of course. But I live its life and it mine. Long ago I chose to tie myself to it as intimately as if it were my twin. I can still remember when the vision of it first revealed itself to me all those ages ago.' He laid his head back down on his folded arms. 'At that time I moved through darkness without being aware what darkness was – it was all I knew. But then, unbidden, the vision came to me of the moon floating among the stars. Glorious, it seemed to me. A hanging pool of quicksilver. Its light was silvery cool. Magical. I swore then that I had found my essence and I took the moon as my patron. My inspiration. My source.' He glanced back to her once again. 'Do you know what I mean by that?'

From this, it appears that the Old man was a denizen of Darkness, so he is very likely not the creator

Quote

'The moon fades.' Ripan spoke up, and he blew a long sad note that trailed down into silence.

'Yes. The sun rose. The moon was but stealing its glow from the sun. For the first time I beheld the sun and it terrified me. It seemed my wanderings had brought me into Tiste lands. I paid my respects to Mother Dark but kept to myself mostly. Now I live here and I pay my respects to Lady Ardata.'

There is an interesting FoD quote,

Quote

'I cannot even guess,' Old Man replied.

'But a few will gather. Curious. This usage of Night, Draconus, was without precedent, and the fury of the believers is something to behold.'

'I care not. Let them worship stone if it pleases them. Unless,' he added, 'they would challenge me?'

'Not you, nor the hand with which you wielded your desire. Instead, Draconus, they weep and seek redress.'

'As I expected.' Old Man was silent for a long moment, and then he said, 'Draconus, be careful – no, we must all be careful now. In the healing they seek, they reach deeply into the Vitr. We do not know what will come of this.'

'The Vitr? Then they are fools.'

'The enemy is not foolishness, Draconus, but desperation.'

'Who so reaches?'
'I have heard Ardata's name mentioned. And the Sister of Dreams.'

The old man seems to be a witness to creation.
First there was darkness, until he came across the moon, sun and Kurald Galain.
All the planets are made of stone. So it is possible that the matter itself is an elemental on par with darkness and then there is light.


Darkness, Light, Stone,
Then there is the
Vitr and Chaos

In OST, the maker says that all who died entered the Vitr until the Jaghut intervened.
Maybe the Vitr is creation and Chaos is destruction.

This post has been edited by nacht: 29 May 2013 - 08:20 PM

[tiam]

Pure conjecture

The Thel Akai disavowal strikes me as the TTT rejecting the Azathanai. They were the first civilised/semi civilised race to be created (bar the Eres who were very primitive, furtive creatures) and they eventually came to disavow themselves from all of the Azathanai either through the Azathani creating more races or for another reason.I hope we hear more about the Thel Akai theyre my favorite race.

[worry]

That's an interesting thought, except they have a lasting affinity for at least one Azathanai, the Queen of Dreams. But perhaps they are the first to worship non-Azathanai ascendants, in other words, Burn (who btw seems to be one example of a mortal Ascendant who predates Mother Dark)? Then again, we know Kallor hates the Azathanai and the Thel Akai for some reason, so there's no enemy-of-my-enemy situation there apparently. My brain is twisted into knots. But I agree I would love to hear more about them.

That "Darkness, Light, Stone" thing is interesting if you compare it to Feather Witch's creation myth with Dolmen, Fire, Errant. But we might find that more than one creation myth holds water, because there's more than one Creation. We know the world of FoD will have to be reshaped in a very big way.

[Randomander]

sorrysort, on 29 May 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

That's an interesting thought, except they have a lasting affinity for at least one Azathanai, the Queen of Dreams. But perhaps they are the first to worship non-Azathanai ascendants, in other words, Burn (who btw seems to be one example of a mortal Ascendant who predates Mother Dark)?

'So many names . . . Eran'ishal, Mother to the Eres'al - my first and most sentimental of choices.' She seemed to flinch. 'Rath Evain to the Forkrul Assail. Stone Bitch to the Jaghut. I have had a face in darkness, a son in shadow, a bastard in light. I have been named the Mother Beneath the Mountain, Ayala Alalle who tends the Gardens of the Moon, for ever awaiting her lover. I am Burn the Sleeping Goddess, in whose dreams life flowers unending, even as those dreams twist into nightmares. I am scattered to the very edge of the Abyss, possessor of more faces than any other Elder.' - Olar Ethil (Azathanai).

[worry]

I trust her as far as I can throw her. She certainly got burned though.

[Randomander]

^^ true dat

[NefaraisBredd]

I posted on this subject a while back. The old man, like many other azathanai is part of a very greek-like pantheon. In greek mythology, you have The Void before anything else comes along(Erebus, i think). My point is, the old man is like the hoary old powerful elemental gods that birthed or preceeded the Titans. Draconus and his ilk are titans. Burn is possibly Themis. Olar ethil and kilmandaros remind me of Mars and Athena. You get my point. I disagree with the assertion that old man moon is the same person as 'the old man.' He was young-lookjng as one person already pointed out and he radiated waves of power that affexted the son of a titan (Arathan) fiercely.