[nacht]

Stalking Stonny, on 25 January 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Was it not also the release of the Otataral Dragon that caused Tiam/T'iam to semble? That was the key move by the Errant, right? What I took from TCG was that the nature of Tiam IS chaos. When the O. Dragon was chained it kept the primal chaos that is Tiam at bay. That's how I remember it, since Korabas being rechained was what prevented the completion of the semblance. Which since Tiam is all the elient at once, drinking the blood of Tiam would mean pretty much any elient, although the more powerful that elient, the more powerful the soletaken transformation becomes. Its probably also possible for the elient to give their blood willingly, rather than have it drained from them. Honestly, Rake is badass, but I don't think he's got the goods to give it to Silanna in a way that would keep her coming back for more. Damn Steven Erikson for making me contemplate interspecies dragon luvin,

Quote

Was it not also the release of the Otataral Dragon that caused Tiam/T'iam to semble?

I am not sure about this. I think the gate to Starvard Demelian opened and a whole bunch of dragons got out. And then to control them Korabas was freed (the Errant/Kilimandros/Sechul being indirectly manipulated to do this by ST/Cotillion). Actually this part of tCG was very unclear to me. I have to reread this section.

And if it on any consolation... All living things reproduce :-) and that probably applies to Dragons too..

[worry]

Stalking Stonny, on 25 January 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Menandore=Infayen Menand OR Sharenas Ankhadu. Yeah. That's it.

No.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

worrywort, on 25 January 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Stalking Stonny, on 25 January 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Menandore=Infayen Menand OR Sharenas Ankhadu. Yeah. That's it.

No.

No as in yes?

[worry]

Haha nope! The two we've seen in FoD are both still basically kids/young adults, who happen to have similarly named adult family members in the story as well. I have little doubt Menandore is the same way, but we'll see I suppose.

[nacht]

worrywort, on 25 January 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Haha nope! The two we've seen in FoD are both still basically kids/young adults, who happen to have similarly named adult family members in the story as well. I have little doubt Menandore is the same way, but we'll see I suppose.

Infayen Menand is a lieutenant in Ursanders Legion and quite a mean bitch. Sukhul is young.

Quote

Neither Infayen Menand nor Tathe Lorat had elected to accompany this party; and Sharenas knew that the others were left wondering what their absence signified. Should they look to Sharenas for answers – and she’d caught the occasional glance sent her way – they would be disappointed. That said, Sharenas loved and admired both her sister and her cousin, and held them in great esteem, in which faith was strong.

While Sukhul clearly says Sharenas is her sister. It is implied here that either Tathe Lorat or Ifayen Menand is also Sharenas's sister.
Sheltatha Lore is the daugher of Tathe Lorat.


Menandore and Sukhul call each other sisters in MT and refer to Sheltatha as a cousin.

Overall, very confusing :-)
If SE did this on purpose, he is being mean to his fans :-)

[D'rek]

Wol, on 25 January 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Something that struck me reading that bit about how MD's first children weren't Andii makes me wonder if he's actually talking about the brothers themselves. It's just something that stood out considering that their mother was clearly someone of some importance or renown at some point.

Prior to FoD, we all thought it referred to the Elder Gods (ie Draconus, SoCN, Killy, etc), ie:


'Scabandari is in no condition to free anyone,' Osserc replied, 'including himself.'
Scabby is dead.

The two women were clearly startled by this. After a moment, Menandore asked, 'Who managed that?'
Who killed him? (specifically)

The man shrugged. 'Does it matter? It was Scabandari's conceit to think this world's gods had not the power to oppose him.'
It doesn't matter who specifically, but hey let me warn you about this world's gods because some of them killed him.

He paused then to eye his daughters speculatively, and said, 'Heed that as a warning, my dears. Mother Dark's first children were spawned without need of any sire. And, despite what Anomander might claim, they were not Tiste Andii.'" Continuing my warning, remember that Mother Dark's first children, this world's gods, were so powerful they were spawned without even a sire.


Now, post-FoD, those few phrases are baffling. Seems like Osserc is randomly throwing in a line about something weird we haven't heard of, completely unrelated to the warning about the Elder Gods in the sentence prior.

[worry]

That's true, nacht, but it's in no way a response to what I said.

Edit: To clarify, the two I was talking about were Sukul Ankhadu and Sheltatha Lore, while Menandore hasn't appeared.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 25 January 2013 - 09:54 PM

[nacht]

worrywort, on 25 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

That's true, nacht, but it's in no way a response to what I said.

Edit: To clarify, the two I was talking about were Sukul Ankhadu and Sheltatha Lore, while Menandore hasn't appeared.

Sorry, I actually wanted to respond that Menandore could be Infayen Menand.

The hypotheses being, Infayen Menand, Sharenas Ankhadu and Sukhul Ankhadu are sisters (Infayen marrying into a family called Menand). Tathe Lorat though in the same age group as Sharenas could be their Aunt making Sheltatha Lore their cousin :-)
but Sharenas refers to Tathe Lorat as a cousin, blowing the hypothesis away.

So I changed my response to what it was

This post has been edited by nacht: 25 January 2013 - 11:05 PM

[worry]

Yikes that's complicated but I get the gist of what you're saying. That's why I'm against marriage/relationships/sex/breeding/promulgating the species. Is that too much to ask?

[nacht]

worrywort, on 25 January 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

Yikes that's complicated but I get the gist of what you're saying. That's why I'm against marriage/relationships/sex/breeding/promulgating the species. Is that too much to ask?

Yes, but only if you are Tiam

Quote

marriage/relationships/sex/breeding/promulgating the species

Add incest to above and I think we have a solution to this logical quandary.



Infayen, Sharenas, Sukhul are sisters
Tathe is their cousin
Tathe is involved in a Chinatown style tragedy (She is my daughter, She is my sister) and from this targedy came Sheltatha Lore
Infayen gets married, and now is called Infayen Menand.

Sometime later, Ursander/FL is slaughtered in a mano a mano combat with Draconus. Osserc is declared the new Father of the Liossan Cult.

The Elient are so obsessed by Osserc's looks that they assemble into Tiam solely for the sake of fornication.
Alas! Tiam is betrayed by Osserc, who cuts her many heads off and offers the blood to his worshippers

Infayen drinks Elient blood and is Reborn as soletaken Dragon. Declares her new new name is Menandore..
Sukhul drinks Elient blood. Declares that she wants to keep her name. Same with Sheltatha

Some more time later.

Menandore and Sukhul kill poor Sheltatha Lore when Osserc makes his appearance

and confuses everybody by declaring the Azathanai as children of Mother Dark.
But we have to remember that he just came from a battle with Rake who gave him a good whipping and therefore he might not be right in his head ...


There, now I am at peace (everthing is ok in the world of Wu and the gods SE and ICE are not inconsistent, mean gods who like messing with poor readers who hang around forums trying to understand their musings).
We worshippers can rationailze anything, ha ha ha .....

[worry]

I don't think FL is dead, and I still don't think Menandore has appeared. We are in opposition.

[IgnatiusKruppe]

I Was pretty freaking bummed out when they saw the creation myth tapestry. Up until that point (I think) they had only referred to dragons as Eleint.
So I was all Holy Disco Biscuits! One of the worst named characters of all time* - Draconus, isn't Named after Dragons..THEY'RE NAMED AFTER HIM!!!!
But nope. Not the case. (((
* or at least of all Malazan time. It's hard to out shit fantasy writers in general. Hammar! Demodred! Lanfear!

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Lanfear? I thought that name was cheesy too until I saw this:

not porn (#6 specifically)

Apparemment, L'enfer es Francais pour "Hell".

[Abyss]

I don't have a problem with the name 'Draconus' in a series where a major character's (known) name is 'Fiddler' because he carries a fiddle around.

[Hetan]

I think you're over thinking this a bit and Stonny is on the right track.
They are the children of Tiam due to drinking draconic blood.... Tiam is a manifestation of many dragons, as we have seen, therefore the blood could be from any of the dragons, as we have also seen.
It just appears that the blood needs to be fresh otherwise bad things happen.
And in some cases the degree of "draconicness" for want of a better word - is passed on to offspring through regular intercourse.
Which still doesn't explain L'oric unless he was born before Osseric drank dragons blood in which case as of FoD, Osseric had better get on with the fathering thing
As for Rake an Silanah, sure they got it on once he dragonified himself - it's pretty much stated in one of the last books of the main series but my quote fu is missing right now.

[tiam]

D, on 25 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

Wol, on 25 January 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Something that struck me reading that bit about how MD's first children weren't Andii makes me wonder if he's actually talking about the brothers themselves. It's just something that stood out considering that their mother was clearly someone of some importance or renown at some point.

Prior to FoD, we all thought it referred to the Elder Gods (ie Draconus, SoCN, Killy, etc), ie:


'Scabandari is in no condition to free anyone,' Osserc replied, 'including himself.'
Scabby is dead.

The two women were clearly startled by this. After a moment, Menandore asked, 'Who managed that?'
Who killed him? (specifically)

The man shrugged. 'Does it matter? It was Scabandari's conceit to think this world's gods had not the power to oppose him.'
It doesn't matter who specifically, but hey let me warn you about this world's gods because some of them killed him.

He paused then to eye his daughters speculatively, and said, 'Heed that as a warning, my dears. Mother Dark's first children were spawned without need of any sire. And, despite what Anomander might claim, they were not Tiste Andii.'" Continuing my warning, remember that Mother Dark's first children, this world's gods, were so powerful they were spawned without even a sire.


Now, post-FoD, those few phrases are baffling. Seems like Osserc is randomly throwing in a line about something weird we haven't heard of, completely unrelated to the warning about the Elder Gods in the sentence prior.

Yes it is very jarring post FOD. The ROTCG prologue with mention of this union with the all is also incredibly jarring.

This is very similar to the 'Sheltatha Lore had children with one of THIS worlds gods' and Ereko's POV of the Edur as 'just another wave of alien invaders' (both paraphrased) that will be likely be glossed over by Erikson.

For example the Osserc quote highlighting that the EG were created by MD can potentially be explained away as the ascension to their titles as First Sons of Mother Dark. No sire was needed for this transformation and they only became Andii after first being unaligned Tiste. As you say it seems disjointed and a strange comment to throw around. However could it not be explained away as despite all their pretensions of power they are all still standard Tiste and not omnipotent, despite their conceit to think otherwise. Clumsy explanation I know but still im sure SE could make it work.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 05 February 2013 - 08:12 PM

[worry]

There were three different kids named Draconus in my Kindergarten. It's not that uncommon.

[Salt-Man Z]

I've always assumed Draconus' name is derived from "draconian" (meaning "rigorous; unusually severe or cruel") rather than from dragons. It's a perfect fit.

[D'rek]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 05 February 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

D, on 25 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

Wol, on 25 January 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Something that struck me reading that bit about how MD's first children weren't Andii makes me wonder if he's actually talking about the brothers themselves. It's just something that stood out considering that their mother was clearly someone of some importance or renown at some point.

Prior to FoD, we all thought it referred to the Elder Gods (ie Draconus, SoCN, Killy, etc), ie:


'Scabandari is in no condition to free anyone,' Osserc replied, 'including himself.'
Scabby is dead.

The two women were clearly startled by this. After a moment, Menandore asked, 'Who managed that?'
Who killed him? (specifically)

The man shrugged. 'Does it matter? It was Scabandari's conceit to think this world's gods had not the power to oppose him.'
It doesn't matter who specifically, but hey let me warn you about this world's gods because some of them killed him.

He paused then to eye his daughters speculatively, and said, 'Heed that as a warning, my dears. Mother Dark's first children were spawned without need of any sire. And, despite what Anomander might claim, they were not Tiste Andii.'" Continuing my warning, remember that Mother Dark's first children, this world's gods, were so powerful they were spawned without even a sire.


Now, post-FoD, those few phrases are baffling. Seems like Osserc is randomly throwing in a line about something weird we haven't heard of, completely unrelated to the warning about the Elder Gods in the sentence prior.

Yes it is very jarring post FOD. The ROTCG prologue with mention of this union with the all is also incredibly jarring.

This is very similar to the 'Sheltatha Lore had children with one of THIS worlds gods' and Ereko's POV of the Edur as 'just another wave of alien invaders' (both paraphrased) that will be likely be glossed over by Erikson.

For example the Osserc quote highlighting that the EG were created by MD can potentially be explained away as the ascension to their titles as First Sons of Mother Dark. No sire was needed for this transformation and they only became Andii after first being unaligned Tiste. As you say it seems disjointed and a strange comment to throw around. However could it not be explained away as despite all their pretensions of power they are all still standard Tiste and not omnipotent, despite their conceit to think otherwise. Clumsy explanation I know but still im sure SE could make it work.

You *can* explain it with convoluted reasoning, and if that floats your boat by all means go for it. But I don't think SE will try to make any sort of reasoning for it, he will just shrug his shoulders and move on 'cause he doesn't care.

[tiam]

I know your right yet I like trying to find ways of shoehorning it in as I want SE to care about the little things. We both know he doesnt and will sacrifice the integrity of his universe for the sake of story.