[Toc]

Hello everyone, I've been absent for like a year or more.
Now I'm back (finally, hehe...), and I want to give some opinions.

I think this book is, overall, quite bad, but I do not blame Esslemont at all. There was simply to much set up for him. AND the Seguleh + Moranth made it ever to big for any one man to play it out.
However, the good:

1) Kruppe was brilliant. Simply brilliant.
2) Leff and Scorch were brilliant. Simply brilliant.
3) The side-story of Madrun, Lazan Door, Thurule and Studious Lock was surprisingly entertaining. A classic Malazan side-story where you just know the characters are bad-ass, yet you're not quite sure why. I love it.
4) Raest being Raest.
5) Spindle. Who would've imagined him being a hero?

However, the bad:

1) The whole "Antsy-storyline" was terrible. I never felt that anything would come out of it. It was nice that Bauchelain and Korbal Broach was there, but it didn't help the story at all. I guess Cull Heel is an important character, but so what? He didn't help the story even though he knew Fisher. Okey, the Mask of the First was in the Spawns? Then tell a story about it.
2) Orchid and Malakai. Weak characters... very weak.
3) Kiska, Bendan and Yusek. What the fuck?! I understand if you want to give everything another point of view, but come on! After a few months among the army of Malaz, Brendan has pissed himself during combat yet can't understand why they fight the way they do. Kiska has been a Claw and Teychrenns guardian, but is stupid as a rock. Yusek... well, okey... she's still far to stupid to make a good story.
4) Jan. Way to "ordinary". Seemed like a Malazan recruit. Simply weak.
5) Steven Erikson. Too good a story-writer to "build up" stories for someone else (whoever that may be).
6) The golden mask. What was it? Wasn't a Jaghut tyrant, just a mask who consumed humans. A thinking mask with memories of past glories; what?
7) Leoman... And what happened to Dunsparrow?
8) The Malazan army. Saved by the Moranth, but rather wants to die? "Not like this!!" - THEN HOW!? It's the Seguleh you're facing!!
9) Everybody knows who the Seguleh are. Huh?
10) The small changes. Everyone is a sapper (Antsy?). K'rul changed sex? Dassem and Brood acted way to human. Duiker is a soldier again (hacking away with a two handed sword)? Fisher is "ordinary"?

The story is quite weak, but I think Esslemont had way to much to work with. You could tell he didn't bother about character history; he simply assumed everyone'd read Erikson's books. However, I think he's building up for his own stories, and I think they will be great. Erikson is one of the best writers today, and you can't carry-on his stories. Yet it's quite sad Erikson didn't write "Darujisthan Story", but you can't blame Esslemont if you think it's weak.

This post has been edited by Toc: 20 January 2013 - 06:22 PM

[Defiance]

I think there's somewhat of a consensus that ICE works best when using his own material. Overall, Stonewielder and Blood and Bone seem to be his most positively favored books. Each definitely has their problems, particularly in regards to his characters and how he handles plots, but overall I think they still stand out as generally good works because he has free reign over the setting. Here, though, he's confined by what Erikson has already done. While it's not exactly fair to compare the two, such comparisons are inevitable when ICE is drawing heavily on what came before in Toll the Hounds.

I believe it's heavily implied that the Golden Mask contains the soul (or whatever you want to call it) of a Jaghut. By donning the mask, the Tyrant takes control. That's why it's the same Tyrant throughout history. The Imass (I forget his name) didn't see that it was actually a Jaghut as the Tyrant since the Tyrant found his way around the Imass extermination by possessing humans.

Some things are RAFO. K'rul changing sex is confusing, but just stay with things. For the most part, though, I agree with your points. ICE's plot lines have always felt a bit flat to me. When they start off they seem like they have a lot of potential, but it seems like they almost always fail to deliver on the level I would like. That's not to say that his conclusions are bad; they're just nothing that really sticks out in my mind after I've read the book, and after 400+ pages of buildup it always feels like he could have done a bit more.

[Toc]

Defiance, on 20 January 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

I believe it's heavily implied that the Golden Mask contains the soul (or whatever you want to call it) of a Jaghut. By donning the mask, the Tyrant takes control. That's why it's the same Tyrant throughout history. The Imass (I forget his name) didn't see that it was actually a Jaghut as the Tyrant since the Tyrant found his way around the Imass extermination by possessing humans.

I can buy this, but I can't agree that it was implied. We, the readers, knew that Darujhistan's past was somehow linked to Jaghuts. But the mask mocked Raest, and the Imass warrior (I can't remember his name either) would probably have sensed a "Jaghut presence" even if it was only a "soul". Instead he said it was something human and walked away (why he even left the Finnest house is also unclear).

[worry]

The Jaghut presence is what attracted him there in the first place. It's more than implied, it's stated outright. Then he sees a human and that's when he turns around.

[Toc]

Like I said, I can buy it, but where is it stated?

[worry]

Dunno, it's been a year since I read it, but it's the reason he leaves the Azath in the first place. He has no motivation to confront some random non-Jaghut thug. I think more specifically, he's sensing Omtose Phellack more than just the vaguer "Jaghut presence" so that is what puts him out about seeing a human. Wish I had it on Kindle to look stuff up easier, but I might hunt through the book later.

[Illuyankas]

[Insert Torvald Nom reference here]

[D'rek]

worrywort, on 20 January 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Dunno, it's been a year since I read it, but it's the reason he leaves the Azath in the first place. He has no motivation to confront some random non-Jaghut thug. I think more specifically, he's sensing Omtose Phellack more than just the vaguer "Jaghut presence" so that is what puts him out about seeing a human. Wish I had it on Kindle to look stuff up easier, but I might hunt through the book later.

That works, but you could also interpret it differently. ie, it could be that a human found Raest's tomb and studied the Jaghut magicks, eventually figuring out some aspects of Jaghut soul-shifting, enough to make him an immortal body-shifting Tyrant, and his chosen tyranny was expanding the nearby treasure hunter camp into a full city over a thousand years. The Imass sensed the Jaghut magicks, but upon being close enough determined it was merely a human soul still residing within the mask.

(oh and the K'rul gender swap is totally acknowledged - Spindle remarks on the change in confusion)

(also, Antsy was always a sapper, just one of the few who was made a sergeant - see MoI, especially when Ganoes was working with him)

[worry]

Yah, that's another interpretation, but one I don't subscribe to as of yet. When I do a re-read of OST (which might still be a while) I'll firm up what I think a bit more. It would be kinda cool if like perhaps Raest was wise enough to use more than one Finnest after all, and the first (human) tyrant was the treasure hunter who found it. But that wouldn't shore up with his actions in GotM and we also get the tyrant saying outright he's scornful of Raest and learned from his mistakes. Which could mean a few things, but given Raest's fate I personally think it involves soul-shifting to avoid Imass attention, which is why I think D-stan Tyrant is Jaghut rather than a powerful human. That said, D-stan isn't very old, especially in T'lan Imass time, and they did occasionally take interest in non-Jaghut powers (First Empire shifters, Assail, etc.), so I'm not rejecting other idea outright.

[Silk]

but didn't the Imass smell Pannion even though he was soul shifted in a human body.......

[Illuyankas]

They didn't even care until they heard his name was Pannion, which is a Jaghut name.

[tiam]

worrywort, on 21 January 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

Yah, that's another interpretation, but one I don't subscribe to as of yet. When I do a re-read of OST (which might still be a while) I'll firm up what I think a bit more. It would be kinda cool if like perhaps Raest was wise enough to use more than one Finnest after all, and the first (human) tyrant was the treasure hunter who found it. But that wouldn't shore up with his actions in GotM and we also get the tyrant saying outright he's scornful of Raest and learned from his mistakes. Which could mean a few things, but given Raest's fate I personally think it involves soul-shifting to avoid Imass attention, which is why I think D-stan Tyrant is Jaghut rather than a powerful human. That said, D-stan isn't very old, especially in T'lan Imass time, and they did occasionally take interest in non-Jaghut powers (First Empire shifters, Assail, etc.), so I'm not rejecting other idea outright.

Doesnt Draconus himself claim that the Tyrants of D'stan are masters of sorcery? I might be misremembering but im sure he states it somewhere. This is what made me think the Jaghut reference might be off though it is clearly mentioned and implied as a link/source of power.

Im hoping itll become more clear in the Assail novel and the D'stan Tyrant is of the same essence those on Assail.

[worry]

If it's not a Jaghut I'll eat my hat.

[Migol]

I'll just add, a reason I disliked this book was the extremely weak villain. Compared to other villains we've seen: Kallor, Raest, Errastus, the CG evil version, and so on...the tyrant seems almost laughable. If you really think about it, the only reason he was able to get back into power was the Moranth inexplicably abandoning the city (in fear?). All they had to do was say "hey, that guy's possessed, if you don't believe us have him take off the mask." His only real threats are his fairly powerful servants in the summoned demonmages...some of whom are resisting him (Baruk/Vorcan) or outright rebelling (Kruppe), and the Seguleh, who probably would have abandoned him if the storyline had gone for another week without the moranth coming in.

I mean, for heaven's sake, he got done in by Scorch and Leff!

This post has been edited by Migol: 23 January 2013 - 08:07 AM

[Tattersail_]

I think I liked the book, but I did think people were under powered ie The Seguleh

[Studlock]

I feel like a lot of the complains come down to 'this isn't what I wanted it to be!" which is a pretty weak argument why this is a weak book simply because I can say I loved the Seguleh, which I absolutely did, and it pretty much render's your point moot. As does your's with mine.

I'll address your complaints one by one.

1&2)I personally enjoyed the Antsy story, and the characters in it. I enjoyed Antsy cynical POV, his voice was one of humour and seriousness. Malakai was an interest character I hope we see again, he was sinister and aloof. Orchid wasn't the greatest character but I enjoyed the hints to the overall mythos. I really enjoyed the old school sword & sorcery style storyline. At points it was oppressive (the atmosphere) and I think it added a lot, perhaps not to the overarching plot, but to the book. Plus all the groups at the end was fun.

3)Turns out not all soldier are super awesome killings machines with no regard for their body. Really all I have to say about Bendan. Yusek was my second favourite storyline and I find it odd you complain about her being stupid, I found her growth from average hood to honorary Seguleh a good one. Added on those scenes at the monastery and this was simply a great storyline.

4)Jan is easily the best new character in the story. He added a human aspect to the Seguleh, again not all Seguleh, it turnouts, are sociopathic killing machines. Which is a good thing.

5)This is just a ridiculous comment. Steven Erikson isn't some god which simply can't be followed and so far I think ICE was done a good job.

6)As others have said, there is definitely a soul, either human or Jaghut, in it. As for those saying he was a weak villain, we haven't all of many physically imposing villains. And I do not agree he was all that of a bad villain either, I felt he had one of the few truly horrifying (of the skin-crawling variety and not the 'I think I am going to sick' kind) scene in the books (if you're wondering it's the one where he walks into the city).

7)Leoman was great and at the end of day he is acting like I think he would after getting the burden of commanding an rebellion of his shoulders. A man with no faith is acting however he pleases, great. I'm just going to ask why you think Kiska is as dumb as a rock? Didn't get that all, frustrated perhaps, out her depth definitely but stupid? Nope.

8)The Moranth air strike was great. The infamous crying scene is a scene a lot of people had a hilarious over-reaction to. I also think it was over-the-top, but i got what he was trying to do and also don't think it was that unrealistic because A: these aren't the Malazan of old and a lot of them probably haven't scene such large scale destruction and B: I think seeing a air strike tearing through an army for the first time would be pretty brutal not matter how long you've been in the services. I really enjoy ICE's take on the Malazan's, showing as weak as any other human (and not 'under-powered' this is not a videogame and I don't care if it started as D&D campaign).

9)Don't even know why this is a complaint. A lot of people would know of the Seguleh, and not because of their past either. Just simply exploration and contact would spread word about them.

10)Seeing as SE wasn't the best with small points on his own side I can't figure out this would be a complaint of just ICE. Antsy was always a sapper, acted like one throughout the books, and who else was a sapper who weren't before? I really can't think of one. Yup defending yourself is basically going back into the service and walking across a couple deserts in a warzone is way easier than defending yourself. Dassem is a human, read CG if you haven't already and you'll know why, plus you know his whole reason for living was destroyed before his eyes so he could probably reexamine himself without it being weird, at all really. Again Brood has always been on the human side of charastics. Both in MoI and ToH he had very human moments. And Fisher is never once shown as ordinary in the book, not even once.


So at the end of day I disagree with you on every point and I am not wrong, but neither are you. I found a lot of complaints of ICE stem from his vision simply doesn't add up with the readers (and maybe even SE's). I for one enjoy some his takes on the themes running throughout the series. Empathy, the decay of power (which I found very poignant with the Tyrant) the reasons why we fight wars and the effects of the people who do fight. I enjoy this version of the Seguleh much more than SE's uberpowerful killing machines simply because they're more human. Generally I don't add onto the conversation on ICE's books because I feel like I'd get into a lot of arguments but yours (no offence) made me squint a bit. It was the whole 'you can't follow SE he is to good' thing which as I pointed out, disagree with heavily. RotCG was above average read for me, and OST was both satisfying and surprising. ICE took it in ways I didn't expect and had new storylines with new characters which were really interesting. SW was a great book as well, I can't comment on B&B but I have nothing really to say it will be bad.

[Migol]

Quote

As for those saying he was a weak villain, we haven't all of many physically imposing villains. And I do not agree he was all that of a bad villain either, I felt he had one of the few truly horrifying (of the skin-crawling variety and not the 'I think I am going to sick' kind) scene in the books (if you're wondering it's the one where he walks into the city).

Physically imposing villains-Again, Kallor, Raest, I'll also throw in Cowl, Rhulud, every one of the named Forkrul Assail, etc. Could use many more examples, but any of these I'd rate much higher in "threat potential" than this Tyrant, who for some reason seemed feared more than Raest in Darujistan and had a ton of buildup in previous books.

And at the end of the day, it wasn't just that he wasn't much of a physical threat, it's that he made some truly, mind-bogglingly stupid/arrogant decisions and moves. Many involving the Seguleh, who by the end were so disgusted with the situation that they were ready to throw away centuries of tradition and whatnot to leave him.

[tiam]

I didnt like how there was minted coins and mention of the Tyrant in GOTM by Mammot whos a well known historian, yet Ebbin is portrayed as a joke in the scholarly community. In D'stan its possible the Cabal suppressed any mention thus anyone seeking the Bafta Tyrant. However its stated that there was once a confederacy with D'stan at its head that forced the Moranth into there mountains and was backed by the Seguleh. Also a complete lack of information on what link this all had with the HFE which was heavily implied throughout.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 24 January 2013 - 12:39 PM

[Studlock]

I always thought Ebbin was thought of as joke not because the Tyrant never existed but rather because everyone thought all of the burial grounds had already been sacked and there wasn't any point in looking for the Tyrant's burial chamber.