[pat5150]

Well, my review is up, if anyone is interested. . .

You can check it out here.

Patrick

[Abyss]

pat5150, on 02 January 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Well, my review is up, if anyone is interested. . .

You can check it out here.

Patrick

I won't debate your review with you Pat, they're your informed opinions and you're entitled to them.

(unless you actually want to discuss any of it further, but i figure a published review is a done thing)...

But one point bears comment, fan to fan... re "Even worse, the long-awaited resolution of the Skinner storyline was so lackluster that it made me want to throw the book across my living room."...

...given the hints woven throughout the book and prior books, i seriously expect that it wasn't actually the resolution of the Skinner storyline any more than the end of RCG was the resolution of the Cowl storyline.

[amphibian]

I still think the worst written ICE book is OST. Blood & Bone is a considerable improvement, despite a very rocky beginning. It ends up being a very decent book in the whole and I disagree with Pat's review at numerous points.

[pat5150]

Abyss, on 02 January 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

But one point bears comment, fan to fan... re "Even worse, the long-awaited resolution of the Skinner storyline was so lackluster that it made me want to throw the book across my living room."...

...given the hints woven throughout the book and prior books, i seriously expect that it wasn't actually the resolution of the Skinner storyline any more than the end of RCG was the resolution of the Cowl storyline.

One can only hope.

That remains to be seen, however. . .

Keeping my fingers crossed that the Assail book will blow my mind!

Patrick

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 02 January 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

I still think the worst written ICE book is OST. Blood & Bone is a considerable improvement, despite a very rocky beginning. It ends up being a very decent book in the whole and I disagree with Pat's review at numerous points.

But other people think RotCG and SW were horribly written and OST was great after them. It seems ICE's writing is impossible to have a consensus about...

[Abyss]

D, on 02 January 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

But other people think RotCG and SW were horribly written and OST was great after them. It seems ICE's writing is impossible to have a consensus about...

It's not like we ever managed consensus on SE's writing...


In fact, i'm pretty confident that the only author we ever acheived forumwide consensus on was Goodkind.


- Abyss, ...notes that now my eyes are bleeding...

[amphibian]

D, on 02 January 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

But other people think RotCG and SW were horribly written and OST was great after them. It seems ICE's writing is impossible to have a consensus about...

The overall plot of RotCG was good. However, the execution of the full Old Guard arc was bad. Adopting a useless figurehead to lead the Talian League (and to never see Ghelel again either), deciding that Li Heng absolutely must be taken despite its relative non-importance and above all, having Toc the Younger going out like that wasn't anti-climatic, it was downright dumb.

SW's overall plot was good. However, the execution of the full Greymane/Stormriders arcs were so truncated as to be purposefully obtuse - even if setting things up for a later book.

The introductions for B&B were terrible. However, the story picked up quite a bit after that and other than one sorta lame conclusion (the limp revenge by suicide by the young tribesman), I liked the way things ended. Cowl unburying himself from the Deadhouse yard, the reconciliation of the Disavowed and Skinner's transition into the afterlife/ghost CG was actually good for me.

OST just sucked. From start to finish. The bright spots were seeing the Seguleh and Moranth cities.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 02 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 02 January 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

D, on 02 January 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

But other people think RotCG and SW were horribly written and OST was great after them. It seems ICE's writing is impossible to have a consensus about...

The overall plot of RotCG was good. However, the execution of the full Old Guard arc was bad. Adopting a useless figurehead to lead the Talian League (and to never see Ghelel again either), deciding that Li Heng absolutely must be taken despite its relative non-importance and above all, having Toc the Younger going out like that wasn't anti-climatic, it was downright dumb.

SW's overall plot was good. However, the execution of the full Greymane/Stormriders arcs were so truncated as to be purposefully obtuse - even if setting things up for a later book.

The introductions for B&B were terrible. However, the story picked up quite a bit after that and other than one sorta lame conclusion (the limp revenge by suicide by the young tribesman), I liked the way things ended. Cowl unburying himself from the Deadhouse yard, the reconciliation of the Disavowed and Skinner's transition into the afterlife/ghost CG was actually good for me.

OST just sucked. From start to finish. The bright spots were seeing the Seguleh and Moranth cities.

My point was, you say OST was his worst writing but others say:

Hetan, on 29 December 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

I should also say - the change in writing style is very refreshing - I'm enjoying it - are we sure it was written by the same guy who wrote RotCG and Stonewielder?
It flows much better and is proving to be far more enjoyable than either of those two were.

champ, on 23 January 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

My first reaction was that I really enjoyed the book and it was ICE's best one yet, his writing and pace have improved since SW...

[Champ then changes his mind plot-wise but not writing-wise]

Imperial Historian, on 20 January 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

ICE has really stepped up as a writer here, most of the issues I had with ICE's writing have almost entirely gone, the POVs switching too rapidly, clunky sentence structure and difficulty following some plotlines have all been much improved. ICE has also largely abandoned the Kyle/Ghesel style character finding there way in the world another plus. A few issues slip through at times, but for the most part this is some excellent writing.

Seems like for every ICE book there are people calling it his worst writing/prose/etc, and that it is either an improvement on his writing in previous books or that he has degraded.

[HoosierDaddy]

I quite enjoyed Blood and Bone, OST, and loved RotCG. Stonewielder had the weakest plot but was decently written.

My opinions are righter than yours!

[pat5150]

It's not ICE's prose I'm worried about. The problem in his last two books has been his storytelling skills and his inability to bring plotlines to a satisfying resolution.

I mean, how could he fuck up the Seguleh/Moranth storyline to such a degree??? That thing had so much potential, it's unbelievable...

Patrick

[D'rek]

pat5150, on 02 January 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

I mean, how could he fuck up the Seguleh/Moranth storyline to such a degree??? That thing had so much potential, it's unbelievable...

Don't you mean "How could he write a Seguleh/Moranth storyline that was so different from my own person tastes and expectations???" ? There was nothing concretely wrong with it.

[worry]

I've liked all of ICE's books (and even more on a re-read, even Toc's death didn't rankle me any), and I think he's gotten progressively better with each volume, but I agree his resolutions are rarely satisfying, and he often leaves missed opportunities. Like the above Moranth/Seguleh thing, the Moranth homeland and its place as a Shadow fragment, Kallor and Skinner traveling so close to each other here. To put it frankly, SE always leaves me wanting more like you can't wait for the next book, and ICE always leaves me wanting more from the book you just finished (though I still anticipate his "next" books too).

So on the whole, I still have very positive impressions of all of his books, but I can't deny that his coyness is still a problem, or that he does sometimes flinch from just going there at times. I don't mind that he limits his POVs much more than SE does, but I do think he should range out of that for certain scenes...getting to know more Crimson Guard during RotCG for example, or getting to see T'riss and Ardata have it out. The same way SE did Setoc's brother in RG for example, or how he jumps around the marines for the river barge chapter in DoD. He could do so much with standalone one-off scenes (unlike some, I appreciated that he did this with Karsa in OST, for example).

This post has been edited by worrywort: 02 January 2013 - 10:33 PM

[Fist Gamet]

Well, I read Pat's review and I think he pretty much nailed it. Flat, aimless and uninspiring in any way. All the fancy prose in the world won't save a book with poorly presented and dull characters. The climax, such an important aspect of any book but perhaps most striking in the Malazan novels, was a perfect example of how not to do it. I genuinely wonder what on earth was the point of this entire book. Compare it to DG or MOI...

[Khellendros]

I agree with some parts of Pat's review. The non-Himatan world building was far more lacklustre, whilst Himatan itself was excellently realised. There was indeed far too much travelling (and really, what was Skinner's reason for returning to Himatan?), and not enough 'doing'.

One thing I don't agree with though is the criticism that the identity of the Warleader was far too easy to discern. I don't believe that was ever meant to be a mystery to readers, only to the Adwami. The mystery lay in what his intentions were and how he would manipulate others into realising those objectives (which themselves unfortunately turned out to be a bit lame).


I do maintain that this was ICE's 'smoothest' book. Especially in comparison to OST, which I was constantly jarred out of by weird sentence structure and dialogue. Although even in B&B there was a strange proclivity for putting the subject noun at the ends of sentences (e.g. 'He climbed the ladder, did Kallor.')


In fact, I think the biggest problem with this novel was the same biggest problem which ICE's previous novels, especially SW and OST, had - unsatisfying rushed ending syndrome. When I had some 30 pages left and all the plot lines were still no seemingly closer to being resolved, I had that sinking feeling that it was going to happen again, and it did.

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 08 January 2013 - 12:12 AM

[Khellendros]

Apart from the ending though and a couple of other scenes here and there, I do have to say I enjoyed it overall. A fun but perhaps somewhat ultimately forgettable read.

Still very much looking forward to Assail

[Macros]

Pats review is just spot on

[tiam]

Yeh pats review is pretty solid. I have no problem with ices prose but its plot went nowhere. With this mention of it not being planned i think it falls under a novel of world building for the sake of it. We still dont know anything about skinner return to himatan and worryworts comment about how ice always leaves you wanting more from the book uve just read is spot on. Sw was alot better on a reread mainly because of the stormwall plotline. The ivanr plotline was ok on a reread but the investigators plotline into the murders was still annoying. Even ost improved on a reread but that was mainly because of the antsy seguleh plotlines not the terrible tyrant is a mask stuff. B and b has nothing to get me back into it.Yeh pats review is pretty solid. I have no problem with ices prose but its plot went nowhere. With this mention of it not being planned i think it falls under a novel of world building for the sake of it. We still dont know anything about skinner return to himatan and worryworts comment about how ice always leaves you wanting more from the book uve just read is spot on. Sw was alot better on a reread mainly because of the stormwall plotline. The ivanr plotline was ok on a reread but the investigators plotline into the murders was still annoying. Even ost improved on a reread but that was mainly because of the antsy seguleh plotlines not the terrible tyrant is a mask stuff. B and b has nothing to get me back into it. The big decider for me is i have a 4 hour train journey tomorrow and i probably wont take b and b despite the fact i havnt reread it.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 13 January 2013 - 10:26 PM

[worry]

So nice he said it twice.

[tiam]

Im only able to post on my phone since i dont have a laptop since it was stolen. Sometimes it dies stupid things. I tried editing it but it wouldnt let me.

[blackzoid]

No, can't say I agree with Pat on this one.
B&B is up there with SW and OST for me. I like all 3 of those books about equally.
RoTCG though... I can't see how anyone can't see it for the steaming pile of utter shit that it is.
I'm re-reading it for the (4th?) time now on the Tor re-read and it is still terrible. Awful.
How anyone can prefer that book to B&B is beyond me. ICE has gotten better, most definitely.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 14 January 2013 - 12:34 PM