[Abyss]

Let's get the prefunctories out of the way....

SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS FOR ALL YES ALL MALAZAN BOOKS BY SE
AND BY ICE PUBLISHED BEFORE THIS ONE
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
GREAT BIG JUNGLE SPOILERS
WITH VINES
AND HUUUUGE TEETH AND CLAWS
AND SPOILERS AND MORE SPOILERS
AND JUST WHEN YOU THINK
YOU'VE SPOILERS IT ALL
EVEN MORE SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS

...and that should do it. Btw i'm going to spoil the end of TCG and large chunks of FoD so if you haven't figured it out yet

SPOILERS


Once upon a time i had the opportunity to meet Steven Erikson.
No, i'm not gloating... okay except for all the gloating... but gloating aside one of the things we discussed were Ian Cameron Esslemont's books, and in particular the then forthcoming BLOOD AND BONE.
SE mentioned that one of the things ICE was particularly enthused about was the jungle setting, something we don't see a lot of in fantasy. I put my brain to thinking about where i had in fact seen jungle settings in fantasy lit and didn't come up with a tonne... Barclay's second RAVEN trilogy was about it... maybe REDLINERS by David Drake but that's mil sf. My brainz say i'm forgetting something, but if it's not standing out than likely the setting wasn't all that important to the story anyways.

In BAB, the setting IS important to the story. Very important actually.
Yes, most of the storylines involve characters tromping through the jungle while their gear rots around then and insects and beasties try to eat them, but on a broader scale there's a sense of pace. No one in this book, among the jungle-located storylines (so not Jatal and co but we'll get to them) is going anywhere fast. They all get to where they're going, more or less, but it's a slow dirty painful crawl that cannot be hurried.

As an aside, i have to give ICE credit for writing a book that is essentially a travelogue, one of the things i dislike most in fantasy - characters slog tiredly from point A to point B - without ever leaving me bored, impatient or frustrated. In fact, it was a nice change of pace where the journey really was the destination and the destination was a nasty, beautiful place.

Ultimately this is a story set in a jungle, and about a jungle, and in the same way some people write 'the city is one of the characters' when discussing other books, the jungle is one of the characters too... literally at the end of the book, but figuratively for most of it.

The setting worked, and nicely so, and it infused the book without overdoing it.

I also really enjoyed how the book ran parallel and overlapped with STONEWIELDER and THE CRIPPLED GOD. It gave a nice sense of timing to its part in both the ME and MBF series.

As usual, i can't really put a number on where this book ranks in the series for me. I enjoyed it, i got my money's worth and more, and i'm looking forward to Assail next.


In terms of what happened....

SAENG/HANU/PON-LOR - I liked this storyline. Saeng could have been annoying but ICE kept her likeable with a nice combo of desperation, wilfulness and wonder. By the time she stepped into the Light thingy at the end, her actions were totally logical. Hanu's role as her protector was consistent and well set up. I was a little bummed that one of the bandits took him out, but he still killed a Circle thaumaturge and saved her one last time so i was satisfied. Pon-Lor came a long way and i enjoyed his narrative, particularly his evolution from Thaumaturge lackie to kicking their asses with his brain damage fu. This storyline also added some nice notes of wonder to the Himatan, notably Old Man Moon and the interactions with the semi-soletaken.
My one complaint is that it wasn't really clear 12 years had passed between Hanu being taken and his return until halfway through the book.

MURK/SOUR/MALAZANS - My favorite storyline of the book. I admit to a bit of disconnect as to exactly why they left Spite behind... sure, they knew if they stayed put after breaking the chaining someone was going to show up and kil them all for the shard, but even so they way they bailed on her and spent the rest of the book avoiding her wasn't entirely clear. it worked, i just wish someone had clearly said 'ok, Spite is going to eat us if she catches us.'. She WAS paying them after all. One thing ICE did beautifully was weave the history of 7C, Dujek's armies, Murk and Sour's time as cadre, Yusen and co's status and all the little Malazan army rituals throughout the story. 'Always an even exchange' ALWAYS gets a grin out of me.
Murk's dealings with Celeste were fun and a nice contract to the Lady we saw in SW. I especially liked how he just did the opposite of what his own father did.
And Sour was just awesome fun, bulging eyes and all.

GOLAN - Ultimately Golan's army was a feint to allow the Circle of Nine to make their way to the temple and try to bring the Jade Chunk down in Kallor. In essence this storyline amounted to an army being steadily whittled down by the jungle in as many horrific ways as possible. There were one or two neat moments, notably Golan taking out the lotus flowers, and the night when worms started pouring out of the wounded, but overall this was my least favorite storyline.

QoD/INA - I would have liked to have known why Ina followed the QoD. There were hints, and they were interesting, and given that Seguleh don't tend to just blindly obey anyone, there was more going on there that i would have liked to have known. Ina also went rather abruptly from classic silent Seguleh to pov character, but never quite gave us enough to make her transition to Lek's guardian after the amutation work. I did, however, like how everyone was stressing about the logistics of amputating a Seguleh's sword-arm.
I liked the development of the QoD. There were hints of what SE wrote into her in FoD, but tempered after a few hundred thousand years or so. The way she underpowered herself was a nice touch, made clearer when we see her back to her Elder Goddess self at the end.
Also... (paraphrasing) 'The lesson of Kartool has not been forgotten.' was a great great shoutback to TB.

JATAL/KALLOR - I haven't quite made my mind up about this storyline yet. Kallor was entirely in character, and i liked the Agon/shadowun priests who followed him and seemed to be a legacy of his time back when he ruled Jacuruku. Jatal's evolution worked well enough, but i'm not sure i bought his relationship with Adanii enough to accept his ultimate demand of Kallor. he did provide a nice perspective for just how messed up Thaumaturge society was tho' during each raid.

SHIMMER/KAZZ - I liked Shimmer back in RCG and i was happy to get more of her POV here. At root this storyline was mostly setup for the next book, but the flashbacks and comments on the Guard were always interesting. They key revelation was the flashback to the Vow... i'm pretty sure that was Kilava standing by, which may mean the Vow took place on a site of the Imass Tellan Ritual.... which may mean the secret Kazz is holding onto so tightly is that the Guard are undead with zero hope for an afterlife.

MARA/SKINNER - Good fun all around. Showed the Disavowed as tough and driven but not necessarily evil. Petal was a nice touch.

OSSERC/GOTHOS - see below. Liked.


BEST NEW CHARACTER - Murk and Sour together get this, hands down. I enjoyed the hell out of their sequences, i enjoyed the way they both evolved through the story, and i enjoyed how they bounced off each other, especially as Sour took on more of a leadership role when they were deep in the jungle. Their dialogue was fun, their partnership was shown very nicely, and i really liked their peculair mix of laziness, bravery, sloppiness and professionalism. All very Malazan in the best of ways.

Honourable mention to Scarza. His dialogue was really great. His one action scene, taking the wall from the Yashakas, was fun, and i liked his half-trell origin and how that affected everything he did, from the running instead of riding to the references to a longer lifespan than humans. I got the sense that even tho' he was a supporting character, ICE really enjoyed writing him.

BEST BATTLE - There were not an abundance of 'clash of thousands' scenes in this book. Kallor's campaign with the Adwani had most of the big set pieces but those tended to quickly focus on Jatal and a small group trying not to die. Those scenes were well written but didn't tend to be ful blown battles. That said, Kallor's mercs taking the wall from the yashakas was a great read, suitably brutal.

I also enjoyed Mara's pov during the raid on the Wall, especially the way the Stormriders would come in with the waves.

BEST THROWDOWN - Considering how this book ended for Skinner, i liked that ICE gave him a couple of moments of awesome... notably the one-on-one with Rutana. It was obvious what was going to happen, and we even had Spite do the same thing earlier, albeit with a smaller worm and she had to go draconic to do it... but Skinner just had a borrowed sword and a whole lot of attitude when he jumped down her throat.

BEST DEATH - Skinner. Wasn't expecting that. Given Shimmer's comment about the brethren tho', and Smoky's brief appearance to rescue her, we may not have seen the last of him.

BEST OLD FRIEND - Cowl. COWL! ...and it even worked nicely. Hia appearance at K'azz and co's camp was suitably creepy and ominous.... i liked Shimmer's reaction to Cowl actually bowing to K'azz.
Honourable mention to Oponn... i liked how ICE wrote their meeting with T'riss.

BEST MYSTERY SOLVED - The T'riss / Ardata link has been hinted at going back to MoI and we've had all kinds of bits and pieces of it. It was nice to finally have that filled in most of the way.

BEST OTHER MYSTERY SOLVED - The multiple chainings were for multiple chunks of the CG. Hinted at in SW but now made clearer.

HAIR TODAY GONE TOMORROW - i recally exactly one descrition of dirty lanky gross hair and it was Gothos. Kudos to ICE for not overusing this descriptor this time.

THE SOMETIMES LESS IS MORE AWARD - Speaking of Gothos, The Osserc and Gothos scenes in the Azathcould have been a lot longer, a lot more philosophical and and lot more chatty. Thankfully they weren't. ICE gets my deepest appreciation for his restraint on these scenes. He made the point, gave us some interesting revelations about the Azath, Gothos and Osserc, and moved on. Sometimes less IS more.

AZATHAWAITWHATII? - We never saw the term 'Azathanai' before Fod, now suddenly everyone is using it. It was a bit jarring and seemed out of context for a book taking place in the 'current' timeline.

BEST STABBY - Temper just walks up to the Deadhouse fence and sticks a sword through Cowl. HA!


More to come, but those are my thoughts having Just Finished It.

[Gothos]

Abyss, on 03 December 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

SE mentioned that one of the things ICE was particularly enthused about was the jungle setting, something we don't see a lot of in fantasy. I put my brain to thinking about where i had in fact seen jungle settings in fantasy lit and didn't come up with a tonne... Barclay's second RAVEN trilogy was about it... maybe REDLINERS by David Drake but that's mil sf. My brainz say i'm forgetting something, but if it's not standing out than likely the setting wasn't all that important to the story anyways.

Just a large bit of Black Company series. I imagine you're familliar with those books?

As for the rest, I just skimmed stuff just to see what names pop up. Very pumped to read it in the future. Right after I'm done with Best Served Cold (60 pages left), Forge of Darkness, The Heroes and A Red Country...
It's a good time to be a reader.

[Abyss]

Gothos, on 03 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Abyss, on 03 December 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

SE mentioned that one of the things ICE was particularly enthused about was the jungle setting, something we don't see a lot of in fantasy. I put my brain to thinking about where i had in fact seen jungle settings in fantasy lit and didn't come up with a tonne... Barclay's second RAVEN trilogy was about it... maybe REDLINERS by David Drake but that's mil sf. My brainz say i'm forgetting something, but if it's not standing out than likely the setting wasn't all that important to the story anyways.

Just a large bit of Black Company series. I imagine you're familliar with those books?

Yes, but while the setting in SILVER ROSE was pretty funky, none of the others stand out as jungle-rrific.

Quote

As for the rest, I just skimmed stuff just to see what names pop up. Very pumped to read it in the future. Right after I'm done with Best Served Cold (60 pages left), Forge of Darkness, The Heroes and A Red Country...
It's a good time to be a reader.

true, true.

[Gothos]

Abyss, on 03 December 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Yes, but while the setting in SILVER ROSE was pretty funky, none of the others stand out as jungle-rrific.

I see what you did thar.
On topic, well, it always seemed to be like the entire area around Taglios was at least jungl-ish.

[Pig Iron]

Good write up. I really liked it, great charcters including the jungle. Best charaterization of Kallor so far, old with liver spots, full of hate and angst (very much Wagner's Kane). Murk and Sour are two new favourites.

I thought the great revelation was that TCG was just one of the Visitors being brought down, which is awe-inspiring. And Scarza even remembered it! That's how I read it anyway. So the Jade Visitors could be in an eccentric orbit like comets.

What was Ossercs decision? He took the blast, was that it? His helpful son gave him to some denizens of Thyrrlan, that he seems to have closed off at some time. Did he decide that was a mistake? All these chainings, crucifictions, seals, closings to create order in the past and now being revoked, will we ever get the full story?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Pig Iron, on 03 December 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Good write up. I really liked it, great charcters including the jungle. Best charaterization of Kallor so far, old with liver spots, full of hate and angst (very much Wagner's Kane). Murk and Sour are two new favourites.

I thought the great revelation was that TCG was just one of the Visitors being brought down, which is awe-inspiring. And Scarza even remembered it! That's how I read it anyway. So the Jade Visitors could be in an eccentric orbit like comets.

What was Ossercs decision? He took the blast, was that it? His helpful son gave him to some denizens of Thyrrlan, that he seems to have closed off at some time. Did he decide that was a mistake? All these chainings, crucifictions, seals, closings to create order in the past and now being revoked, will we ever get the full story?

i think osserc just put himself in harms way for no other end than to stop something bad from happening. this is what his entire talk with gothos is about, imo. throughout the conversation gothos constantly questions osserc's achievements and motivations. asking if he's ever done anything for others without having selfish reasons, stuff like that. so then osserc goes out and gets himself hit by a comet. rather self-sacrificing of him, and a change of tactic from his usual modus operandi - 'i do as i please'.

oh and that nacht that waddles around? that's totally moby.

[polishgenius]

I think, although it obviously fit the conversation that went before it, that Osserc stopped the comet at the end largely to give him some direct relevance to the story (and perhaps as the spur of some future plot). Although I haven't picked through and analyzed it, I got the impression the main point of that whole story strand is thematic- to underscore and comment on things that are going on in the 'active' strands (and also it seems to provide some insight on the Houses of the Azath themselves in terms of having motivation and the like, something which also doesn't directly tie to this book). Maybe ICE could have left it entirely unconnected but for Cowl, but that sort of thing can look like sloppy storytelling - I certainly disliked it immensely when Toll the Hounds did it, one of the reasons I prefer this book to that one.

[Hocknose]

Are we sure osserc got hit by a comet?? Cause at least 2 characters say that the visitor looked smaller in the sky so was therefore moving away from the planet. Which comet did osserc get hit by? I found that bit pretty hard to work out and frustrating.
The whole celeste thing has definitely cleared up the lady entity from stoneweilder for me...
Anyone know what they meant when they talked about the warrens taking a hit and all the mages blacking out?? Has that something to do with korrabas or maybe icarium from TCG???

[Pig Iron]

Hocknose, on 06 December 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

Are we sure osserc got hit by a comet?? Cause at least 2 characters say that the visitor looked smaller in the sky so was therefore moving away from the planet. Which comet did osserc get hit by? I found that bit pretty hard to work out and frustrating.
The whole celeste thing has definitely cleared up the lady entity from stoneweilder for me...
Anyone know what they meant when they talked about the warrens taking a hit and all the mages blacking out?? Has that something to do with korrabas or maybe icarium from TCG???

I think it was the blast from the Temple he took, not a "comet". Super-covergence Temple - reunion of T'riss/Ardata - slaying of the CG in TCG taking place all at the same time.

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 06 December 2012 - 07:41 AM

[Abyss]

Pig Iron, on 06 December 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

Hocknose, on 06 December 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

Are we sure osserc got hit by a comet?? ...

I think it was the blast from the Temple he took, not a "comet". ...

Agreed.

[blackzoid]

Hocknose, on 06 December 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

Are we sure osserc got hit by a comet?? Cause at least 2 characters say that the visitor looked smaller in the sky so was therefore moving away from the planet. Which comet did osserc get hit by? I found that bit pretty hard to work out and frustrating.
The whole celeste thing has definitely cleared up the lady entity from stoneweilder for me...
Anyone know what they meant when they talked about the warrens taking a hit and all the mages blacking out?? Has that something to do with korrabas or maybe icarium from TCG???

Visitor = Jade Giants in TCG = MULTIPLE pieces. Only one of the pieces landed on Jacruuku. Rest were going to Kolanse I think (following the heart of the Crippled God)

[Defiance]

Pig Iron, on 03 December 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

I thought the great revelation was that TCG was just one of the Visitors being brought down, which is awe-inspiring. And Scarza even remembered it! That's how I read it anyway. So the Jade Visitors could be in an eccentric orbit like comets.

I took this an entirely different way. Remeber Heboric's trippy dreams back in House of Chains where he sees all those jade statues floating through space? This, combined with some other quotes throughout the series suggest that the Visitor comet-statues themselves aren't that uncommon of a sight. Here's how I see it:

• Circle calls down The Crippled God in an attempt to stop Kallor. As a result, TCG is ripped from his home world and brought down upon Wu.
• Jade Statues begin their intergalactic spaceflight to look for their god. Over the hundred thousand years since TCG has been called down, some can be seen in the sky, distantly. Occasionally, some of these get close enough to hit Wu (thus all of the Jade Statues spread across the landscape).
• Due to TCG's growing power throughout the recent years, the intergalactic space statues are "called" - that is, they are better able to sense the presence of their god, thus their ability to aim so precisely at Wu this time around (making the moon swiss cheese, hitting Wu in The Bonehunters, almost hitting in The Crippled God)
• Fearing Kallor's return, the Circle attempts to bring down one of the Jade Statues (or maybe all of them) to smash him into oblivion

Random theory: the Stormriders are a jade statue from an opposing god in TCG's realm. They have pursued him through time and space to bring justice to the galaxy.

Anyway, my feelings about the book in general: I liked it. I'll have to wait for it to soak in a bit more, but I think it's ICE's best to date. That said, what the hell happened at the ending? Saeng stepping into the Light wasn't explained at all. She did it to stop the Circle from calling down a Jade Statue, but there was an impact (thus Kallor's new makeover and all of the ash/the crater in general). So, did a piece hit? If so, why the hell didn't anyone actually see a giant Jade Chunk slamming into the ground? Why weren't there any remnants/chunks of this statue left? Because we didn't see any, not to mention the Circle was apparently stopped, this leads me to believe that a piece didn't hit at all. Plus, I think a piece of the Banner falling out of the sky would have been seen by everyone in The Crippled God, given how bright it is at the end. As a result, this leads me to believe that it was some aftereffect (or maybe the effect) of Saeng counteracting the ritual with the Light.

[Pig Iron]

Defiance, on 08 December 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Pig Iron, on 03 December 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

I thought the great revelation was that TCG was just one of the Visitors being brought down, which is awe-inspiring. And Scarza even remembered it! That's how I read it anyway. So the Jade Visitors could be in an eccentric orbit like comets.

I took this an entirely different way. Remeber Heboric's trippy dreams back in House of Chains where he sees all those jade statues floating through space? This, combined with some other quotes throughout the series suggest that the Visitor comet-statues themselves aren't that uncommon of a sight. Here's how I see it:

• Circle calls down The Crippled God in an attempt to stop Kallor. As a result, TCG is ripped from his home world and brought down upon Wu.
• Jade Statues begin their intergalactic spaceflight to look for their god. Over the hundred thousand years since TCG has been called down, some can be seen in the sky, distantly. Occasionally, some of these get close enough to hit Wu (thus all of the Jade Statues spread across the landscape).
• Due to TCG's growing power throughout the recent years, the intergalactic space statues are "called" - that is, they are better able to sense the presence of their god, thus their ability to aim so precisely at Wu this time around (making the moon swiss cheese, hitting Wu in The Bonehunters, almost hitting in The Crippled God)
• Fearing Kallor's return, the Circle attempts to bring down one of the Jade Statues (or maybe all of them) to smash him into oblivion

Random theory: the Stormriders are a jade statue from an opposing god in TCG's realm. They have pursued him through time and space to bring justice to the galaxy.

Anyway, my feelings about the book in general: I liked it. I'll have to wait for it to soak in a bit more, but I think it's ICE's best to date. That said, what the hell happened at the ending? Saeng stepping into the Light wasn't explained at all. She did it to stop the Circle from calling down a Jade Statue, but there was an impact (thus Kallor's new makeover and all of the ash/the crater in general). So, did a piece hit? If so, why the hell didn't anyone actually see a giant Jade Chunk slamming into the ground? Why weren't there any remnants/chunks of this statue left? Because we didn't see any, not to mention the Circle was apparently stopped, this leads me to believe that a piece didn't hit at all. Plus, I think a piece of the Banner falling out of the sky would have been seen by everyone in The Crippled God, given how bright it is at the end. As a result, this leads me to believe that it was some aftereffect (or maybe the effect) of Saeng counteracting the ritual with the Light.

That's how I saw it before BaB. But in BaB it seems like what the mages did once before was to bring down a Visitor, opening up the possibility that that's what tCG is.

[polishgenius]

I've gotten the impression that Visitors simply refers to extraterrestrial objects in flyby rather than specifically the statues.

[Defiance]

I'm not sure - everything in MBotF points to them being Jade Statues as far as I can recall. Heboric's vision, the fact that he can feel/semi-communicate with the souls within Jade Statues, and everything relating to him in the DoD prologue and TCG ending. TCG reuniting with them at the ending of the book of the same name makes sense if it's the Statues (his worshipers), whereas if it's just unrelated objects then why does his soul go up to them and how does he get them to turn the ship around so that they don't hit Wu?

[polishgenius]

I'm not suggesting that the Jade Statues weren't Visitors, but that not all Visitors are Jade Statues.

[Sinisdar Toste]

we have to remember osserc's involved in the final blow-up at the temple of light. elsethread it's been postulated that he stopped the ritual from calling one of the visitors down, blocking the power, or reflecting it, and causing the devastation where spite and l'oric find him at the end. i also don't think that a visitor actually fell, but maybe a piece of one? i don't know though... i'll have to read that part again, but iirc, there's not even mention of any crater.

[Pig Iron]

Could be the reason the Visitors came so close this time (and then left) were the events in BaB and not that they were coming for tCG and his (possible) reunion with them after Cot's friendly backstab.

Revisionist history, but interesting I think.

[Defiance]

*shrug* It's possible, but here's why I don't think so:

The Circle seems to have tried to call down a piece in reaction to Kallor. The Jade Statues have been on their way since quite awhile before Kallor's landing on Jacuruku. This implies that the Circle is reacting to events rather than controlling them (especially when we consider that the Circle set off for their place of power around the beginning of the book, at which point the Visitor had already been in the sky for some time).

The Crippled God quote:

Quote

'I am flesh and bone. Made in the guise of human. Where my children call down to me, I cannot go. Would you have me summon them down?'

[Pig Iron]

Yeah I'm not convinced myself. Still, the Thaumaturgists seem to be good at telekinesis so bringing down a "comet" as a primitive but effective nuke would fit. Tearing a god from a distant world to crash and burn less so.