[JPK]

Briar King, on 17 December 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

I don’t believe Ben for a second with

Spoiler

him leading Rey into her parents were no body. He’s evil. Evil people lie or distort shit. It is possible from a certain point of view that her parents were nobody vanillas but one of their parents could be someone powerful and known to us.

I mostly agree with this, but for a slightly different reason.

Spoiler

Ben obviously feels a strong connection with Rey, and they spent a significant amount of acts 1 and 2 developing that connection. His outright lie about her parentage wasn't because he's pure evil, but rather a blatant attempt to manipulate her into joining him in his scheme. An attempt that he fully believed was going to work.

I also suspect that Luke's line about haunting Kylo in death was foreshadowing for E9.

This post has been edited by JPK: 18 December 2017 - 03:16 AM

[worry]

I'm with you, Sil.

Spoiler

I was actually dreading what the reveal was gonna be and felt palpable relief at that decision.

[Salt-Man Z]

Coco with marshmallows, on 17 December 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:

Since when were there gods in Star Wars? Admiral Holdo saying "God bless you"

She said "Godspeed" which is a bit different. And characters have been invoking Hell since the OT, so...

[polishgenius]

I thought it was wicked good. Some of it didn't make sense and some choices were odd, but mostly it was probably the most interesting SW film to date and certainly the prettiest, most brilliant on a cinematic/cinematographic level one.

Spoiler

The shot of Holdo shooting the ship through Snoke's ship. Yeah, it means they're gonna have to explain how come that doesn't happen more often, but boy was it pretty.

I didn't have any issue with Luke. The actual part of him walking into Ben's room with a lit lightsabre was a bit of a character hop- but not a huge one, as I saw pointed out elsewhere, him seeing good in Vader and winning the war for the Rebellion doesn't mean he was ready for the long term responsibility of trying to teach a kid who's falling to the dark side. They could probably have handled that with a bit more subtlety, but everything that crystalises from it- Luke's self-exile and cutting off from the force and all that- made sense as a direct reaction and I thought made for an interesting plot. I also liked that he called out the old Jedi Order as dickheads because they totally were.
And his showdown with Ren was fantastic, even though I thought the entire segment could really have been in the next movie, this one ending with the ship blow-up and escaping down to the planet would have made more structural sense.


Rey's parents being nobody was absolutely fine. Hope they don't change that.


My only real bugbear was that they could have left the Rey/Ren conflict a bit more tangled for now. They set up all this potential-crossing sides mess and did nothing with it. I'm not saying that either actually should, but leave that potential conflict in play for longer. I wanted Rey to stay with him to try to turn him, leading Finn to not realise and feel betrayed.

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 18 December 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 17 December 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

Briar King, on 17 December 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

Should be interesting bks that get into exactly what she can do and how she learned it.

Except Rian goddamn Johnson probably didn't even think it out do it will have to be retconned by someone else sadly.

Tbf your displeasure should also include Kathleen also right? We ve seen her replace 2 directors already. I guess he passed muster with her. I did definitely feel that he was off but that’s because all that good ole EU badassness is in my head.

It very much is, I agree. Until this point I'd basically given Kat Kennedy EVERY benefit of the doubt with regards to NuCanon Star Wars. She liked Rian because he did his work and did it in a professional manner, and ended up on time and (from what I hear) under budget. But after the debacle that I consider The LAST JEDI to be...I've lost a SIGNIFICANT amount of faith in her. That she thought this was a good through line for these movies is beyond me. Moreso that she felt it was okay for Rian Johnson to completely eviscerate JJ Abrams work in TFA...and she's even brought him back to do the third. I no longer trust her as far as I can throw her.

The goddamn movie opened with a long-winded "prank call" joke FFS. Sweet gods.

I'm getting more upset by the day really. The more I think about it, the angrier I am about the whole thing.

TF.N is largely freaking out. People who disliked or outright hated it....and people saying it was amazing. And the interesting thing is that ANYONE saying they didn't like it are being raked over the coals by those that did. It's astonishing really. It DOES seem like more people there didn't like it than did though...so safe to say the fanbase isn't exactly happy.

Spoiler

EDIT: Also with regards to the Ben Solo arc for Luke...the reason in the old EU why Jacen Solo's turn to Darth Caedus was so devastating and so emotionally wrought for everyone involved is that it not only took years, but was not the result of some asinine plot contrivance, but a man who wants to "further" the force by trying to balance himself between light and dark elements to bring more peace to the galaxy...and fails HARD. We were invested in Jacen Solo when he eventually duals his own twin sister. In a whole slew of people who tried to keep him from that path and never gave up....meanwhile in this Luke sees a possible dark future in his Nephew and best padawan student...and decides he should ice him IN HIS SLEEP. Dafuq?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 December 2017 - 02:23 PM

[Abyss]

I don't get the hate for the 'Luke was about to kill Kylo' thing. It was pretty clearly spelled out that he wasn't going to do it.

And Poe's crank call was damn funny.

Enough to dislike in the film, but those two things aren't on my list.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

I don't get the hate for the 'Luke was about to kill Kylo' thing. It was pretty clearly spelled out that he wasn't going to do it.

It's not whether or not he would do it...it's that he would be worried enough about his own nephew and head student that he'd sneak into his sleeping cabin in the middle of the night, and blaze up his lightsaber. The fact that he didn't follow through is besides the point. Nothing can convince me that the Luke I know from ROTJ would ever do such a thing. At worst, he might confront Ben Solo during daylight hours about the dark side and Snoke...and perhaps battle him over it if Ben pushed...but this silent in the night shit is GARBAGE character assassination. It was done so that Rian could have Rey be conflicted about Luke and go to Kylo and serve the throne room double-cheat where you think Kylo might swing back. Nothing more. This film was FULL of things Rian did to serve his own narrative in inorganic ways, and in the case of Luke destroys who he was.

Even Hamill disagrees with this fact as he said in a red carpet interview a few days back "Jedi NEVER give up hope" And they should not.

Si9debar: You can tell in the more recent interviews what Hamill thinks of what was done to Luke, and he's just a professional putting on a face to the media so as not to sink the ship, but I'll wager he's not happy with what happened.

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

And Poe's crank call was damn funny.

I laughed. I admit. And be that as it may, it was a level of humour that felt completely out of place. Especially to open the movie on (and do NOT get me started on Luke's casual throw of the saber over his shoulder) I don't like Hux much, but he was a punching bag in this movie from start to finish to serve as the butt of all jokes.

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Enough to dislike in the film, but those two things aren't on my list.

Fair enough. They are totally on mine.

But then as the days pass I find more and more to be upset about.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 December 2017 - 03:14 PM

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 18 December 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

...

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

And Poe's crank call was damn funny.

I laughed. I admit. And be that as it may, it was a level of humour that felt completely out of place. Especially to open the movie on (and do NOT get me started on Luke's casual throw of the saber over his shoulder)...

Quote

Enough to dislike in the film, but those two things aren't on my list.

Fair enough. They are totally on mine.

But then as the days pass I find more and more to be upset about.

It was because it was so utterly out of place that the crank call was so funny.

As for the sabre toss... meh, it was indicative of Luke's dislike for all things Jedi by then. He felt he had been sold a shit trip since Obiwan handed him the damn thing.

I get the sense that part of the difficulty some people are having is from this curious canonization of Luke that took place over the centuries since RETURN OF THE JEDI.
It's particularly odd for EU fans since Luke was very fallible in the EU stuff, beyond the complete fail that was Jacen. He lost a bunch of students, couldn't do much against the Vong invasion, for like 20 books, etc etc. I get on some level that 'everyone' wanted a badass Luke to just waltz in and kick ass, but we didn't get that with Han, barely had a hint of it from Leia, why expect more from Luke. And i say this as someone deeply disappointed that Chewie has not pulled off anyone's arm and beaten them to death with it yet in the new films.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

I get the sense that part of the difficulty some people are having is from this curious canonization of Luke that took place over the centuries since RETURN OF THE JEDI.
It's particularly odd for EU fans since Luke was very fallible in the EU stuff, beyond the complete fail that was Jacen. He lost a bunch of students, couldn't do much against the Vong invasion, for like 20 books, etc etc. I get on some level that 'everyone' wanted a badass Luke to just waltz in and kick ass, but we didn't get that with Han, barely had a hint of it from Leia, why expect more from Luke. And i say this as someone deeply disappointed that Chewie has not pulled off anyone's arm and beaten them to death with it yet in the new films.

I just can't see how any of it is organic to Luke....all I see are the OTHER plot points that Rian wanted to hit, and he served those instead and anything else fell by the wayside for Edgy "Subvert All The Things!" crap...and adding in there fact that he wanted to shuffle away the OT and basically reboot the Star Wars universe at Zero...I mean shit, he even puts it in the script with Kylo's words about "killing the past", which I guess makes Rian's stand-in Kylo Ren...which I admit makes sense. AKA Petulant, insipid dark fanboy who decided to do his own thing at the detriment to all around him.

I just fail to see how any of this is interesting going forward. The stakes are actually lesser than they were at this point in the last trilogy. There is no New Republic (because apparently they were entirely in one System, Navy and all), the First Order is now a chunked Empire clone with none of the Imperial governmental oversight to keep ANYONE under their sway, led by two squabbling teenage brothers, and the Rebellion is one Jedi and about 19 Rebel soldiers, with no ships except the Millennium Falcon and no support (the Outer Rim people that supposedly sided with them are intentionally absent). I'm not sure what Star WARS you can have with those factors all that's in play, but okay.

And Chewie nearly ate a roasted Porg...that was cool.

I'm happy others found stuff to like or even love in this movie...but it's ATOC level for me at this point.

I like it as a film if I ignore it's Star Wars. After a few days of careful thought, I really dislike it as a Star Wars film, and feel Rian Johnson fundamentally misunderstands what the franchise is about.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 December 2017 - 03:45 PM

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 18 December 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

...

And Chewie nearly ate a roasted Porg...that was cool.

He prepared two. I'm certain Rey ate the other one and loved it. With a jug of the nipple-juice from those Dr Seuss rejects Luke was milking.

Quote

I like it as a film if I ignore it's Star Wars. I really dislike it as a Star Wars film, and feel Rian Johnson fundamentally misunderstands what the franchise is about.

Yeah, it's the 'what the franchise is about' thing that is so thoroughly subjective.
We're talking about a series that started out with one pretty good film utterly novel for its time, one brilliant film, and a massively good/bad finale (Vader/Ewoks), then three progressively worse... anyways, the point being i think Star Wars gets a certain amount of buildup in people's expectations/brainzez such that anytone else's vision, including the director paid to make the thing and generate bazillions of dollars, won't live up.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

Yeah, it's the 'what the franchise is about' thing that is so thoroughly subjective.
We're talking about a series that started out with one pretty good film utterly novel for its time, one brilliant film, and a massively good/bad finale (Vader/Ewoks), then three progressively worse... anyways, the point being i think Star Wars gets a certain amount of buildup in people's expectations/brainzez such that anytone else's vision, including the director paid to make the thing and generate bazillions of dollars, won't live up.

I think when the guy who has lived and breathed the character of Luke for 40 years (Mark Hamill), disagrees with the Director/Writer on how he's being portrayed here, I'm in comfortable company of saying Rian didn't get Luke. If there was one character in this new series he needed to NAIL...it was Luke Skywalker. He didn't.

[rant]

I think this was the most ambitious/different story to come out of the Star Wars franchise since the NJO (which I loved for the same reason)...and I really enjoyed it. That said I had some of the same issues already mentioned.

Spoiler

Dislike: Finn and Rose's special adventures. They brought up so many problems.

If Admiral Holdo had just explained to Poe that she had a plan (any plan) the entire b-plot involving Finn could have been avoided ( and I wish it had, as it fell flat for me)....which would have been great, as the resistance is basically 20 people and the Millenium falcon now because of that. Rian handed JJ a pretty shitty torch.

Tech wise it basically blew up everything we know about hyperspace travel....and hell, even within the movie their tech magic wasn't consistent. They couldn't call their outer rim allies, but could call Maz (who I assumed was an outer rim ally.....)

The only good thing from that was Benicio Del Torro as DJ. Loved his character.....though he had a bit too much tech magic. Other than that all of his commentary was very welcome in a Saga that is typically deaf to nuance.

Dislike: Bombs 'falling' in space. Though admittedly that was a really cool scene (even if the bombers moved wayy too slow/ I would have liked to see a b-wing here)

Like: Everything to do with Luke. After 2 decades of reading 4 in-universe decades of Luke Skywalker getting ever stronger and infallible, this characterization was an awesome change of pace. I do think the Ben murder moment could have been given a bit more rationalization, but I was down with it.

My favorite part of the NJO was Luke's initial inability to deal with the implications of the Jedi going to war, and as a result failing as a leader.

Luke's arc in the films is very Herbert/ Dune-esque now. Our heroes are destined to fail if we follow them too long.


Love: Luke's line re: jedi and lightside. The belief that the lightside of the force would fail to exist should the jedi order cease being the height of vanity was probably some of the best (and briefest) lore building I've seen in Star Wars.

Love: Luke's astral projection fight.

The way he made himself look like a master of not only lightsaber dueling( he couldn't let Kylo realize he wasn't connecting any blows because Luke wasn't there...so he just made it seem like he was doing elaborate moves to embarrass Kylo), AND of force mastery.

The way Luke's movements didn't make sounds or move the salt, but Kylo's did.

The way Adam Driver showed Kylo's subtle fear and desperation over that fight: Here he was fighting his former teacher, AND the only Jedi to 'beat' his hero Vader. I wish I could have heard his thought process as he descended in fear, panic, and rage.

LOVED: The way Rian gave JJ the finger by opening his stupid mystery boxes and showing nothing interesting inside. Seriously, JJ's obsessions with mystery boxes is one of the worst things to happen to story-telling in the past 20 years IMO. A better cultural critic could probably draw a line directly between mystery boxes and spoiler obsessions. For me, WHAT happens (spoilers) is the LEAST interesting component of a good story.

I love that Rey is a new character (barring JJ retconning that).
I love that Snoke's back story is now irrelevant, and he is dead (barring JJ retconning that). What if he was Boba Fett (see, dumb)!

Seriously, what is the obsession with everything in a universe being connected to everything. We even see it here in the Malazan stories. Arathan has to be Ruthan Gudd, or Tayschreen etc. Why can't he just be a new character? That kind of stuff doesn't happen in real life (I mean outside of royalty and dictatorships). Obama isn't the secret 3rd generation of Malcolm X and MLK.

Really disliked (I don't hate): The force sensitive kid at the end. Paired with the decimation of the resistance.....that just really gave me the impression that the resistance is now going to use child soldiers in their war with the First Order.

I used to dislike that the EU had been relegated to b-canon. But now, I'm really appreciating the idea of multiple ways of telling the same story. Something for everyone.

This post has been edited by rant: 18 December 2017 - 05:21 PM

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 18 December 2017 - 03:18 AM, said:

Just have to wait and see. It’s what darksiders do though.

Ryan did an interview yesterday where he says that as far as he is concerned...Kylo was telling Rey the truth.

[Abyss]

rant, on 18 December 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

...Really disliked (I don't hate): The force sensitive kid at the end. Paired with the decimation of the resistance.....that just really gave me the impression that the resistance is now going to use child soldiers in their war with the First Order....

I agree w a lot of what you posted but that is a stretch from that scene.

[Salt-Man Z]

Re:Luke, other thoughts:

Spoiler

As (still) a huge EU fanboy, I had no problem with this take on Luke. I didn't see him going to take out Ben, I took it as that he sensed the darkness that night, followed it to its source (Ben's room) and after some deliberation, in a split-second of weakness ignited his lightsaber (this is the same guy who, despite all his "I will not fight you" in RotJ, still lashed out at Vader/Palpatine a couple of times). I think as soon as saber was lit, he recognized his mistake, but the damage was done.

Luke flippantly tossing his saber over his shoulder only surprised me because I was honestly expecting him to turn around and just chuck it into the sea.

I'm a little torn on the movie itself, but I liked it more than not. It certainly didn't ignite the same sensawunda that TFA did, for sure. But Rey's parentage (if true) is perfect as-is, and every interaction between her and Kylo was basically the highlight of the film. (Like worry says, Adam Driver stole the show.) Taking Snoke out so quickly was a nice shock, and a great move to mix up the formula in a movie that was almost more of a rehash than TFA. I was rooting for the Kylo/Rey teamup to happen, whether for good, evil, or something in-between, but was very disappointed that they chickened out on that front. So now going into Ep IX there's no urgency, no pressing questions to be resolved beyond how do they take down Kylo? (And, I guess, how do they write out Leia?)

I also found it odd that it was Ghost!Yoda who appeared to Luke, since it was only ever Ghost!Obi-Wan before (barring the end of RotJ.)

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 18 December 2017 - 10:38 PM

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 18 December 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 18 December 2017 - 04:23 PM, said:

Briar King, on 18 December 2017 - 03:18 AM, said:

Just have to wait and see. It’s what darksiders do though.

Ryan did an interview yesterday where he says that as far as he is concerned...Kylo was telling Rey the truth.

And you think he is telling the truth? After 8 you think he is a darksider lol

I think Rian REALLY thinks he was clever with his whole Rey is no one, anyone can be Jedi thing. So as far as he is concerned, I feel like It's all there, no argument...

But yes, I agree that Kylo as a character SHOULD be lying...and perhaps JJ will make it that he was lying once we see IX. Only time will tell.

Just one more thing that Rian eviscerated that JJ set up that JJ now has to fix in IX.

Salt-Man Z, on 18 December 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

I also found it odd that it was Ghost!Yoda who appeared to Luke, since it was only ever Ghost!Obi-Wan before (barring the end of RotJ.)

Briar King, on 18 December 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

I found it odd that it was just one and not all 3 from VI

As I said in my initial post, the fact that the other two force ghosts that we know to exist didn't show up, is another notch in the fact that Rian needed the story to go the way he needed to go and nowhere else...so although from a logic standpoint OF COURSE it would be all three ghosts who would show up to Luke...Rian could not have that because it would have slashed all his Rey & Luke story ideas to utter shreds...so he ignored them so they didn't cock up his amateurish plans.

Goddamn. Turns out I don't like Rian Johnson at all. LOL I didn't care much for LOOPER, and found BRICK overtly self-congratulatory...so it should be less of a surprise...but damn, I was really hoping to like what he did.

[QuickTidal]

Adding another thought...Is THIS the "story of the Skywalker family" that Kat Kennedy said the main films will always be telling? That they only bring misery and evil to the galaxy no matter what anyone does? Anakin becomes Vader, is evil and brings evil to the galaxy. Luke redeems Anakin/Vader, but later on wavers in his faith and accidentally pushes his own nephew into the dark side, who is evil, brings evil to the galaxy. As such, I doubt there is a redemption in the cards now for Kylo....so Rey kills him in IX. End of Skywalker line.

Wow, what a GREAT way to end the Skywalker story.

/s

Fucks sake.

[rant]

Spoiler

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

rant, on 18 December 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

...Really disliked (I don't hate): The force sensitive kid at the end. Paired with the decimation of the resistance.....that just really gave me the impression that the resistance is now going to use child soldiers in their war with the First Order....

I agree w a lot of what you posted but that is a stretch from that scene.

Lol ya I know. Sorry, I meant that to be a joke but forgot to include any comedy cues.

This post has been edited by rant: 18 December 2017 - 05:26 PM

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 18 December 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

Adding another thought...Is THIS the "story of the Skywalker family"... only bring misery and evil to the galaxy no matter what anyone does... GREAT way to end the Skywalker story.
...

Hadn't really thought about it but yeah, that would be an ugly shift.

rant, on 18 December 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

Spoiler

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

rant, on 18 December 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

...Really disliked (I don't hate): The force sensitive kid at the end. Paired with the decimation of the resistance.....that just really gave me the impression that the resistance is now going to use child soldiers in their war with the First Order....

I agree w a lot of what you posted but that is a stretch from that scene.

Lol ya I know. Sorry, I meant that to be a joke but forgot to include any comedy cues.

Seriously.
Everyone knows the Resistance only employs emotionally insecure teens with abandonment issues.

[Salt-Man Z]

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 18 December 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

Adding another thought...Is THIS the "story of the Skywalker family"... only bring misery and evil to the galaxy no matter what anyone does... GREAT way to end the Skywalker story.

Hadn't really thought about it but yeah, that would be an ugly shift.

Yeah, that occurred to me too last night: Anakin plunges the galaxy into darkness, which is restored by Luke/Leia, then undone by Ben. They're all dead and now the entire (brief) Skywalker line becomes a footnote in galactic history.