Now, lets look at Rey. She does not recall ever having met a Jedi, to the extent that she needs confirmation from Han that they even existed. She receives no training.
She scraps with some locals trying to get BB8 with a staff she carries. She has lived there most of her life and there is really no indication she has ever been trained to use that staff nor has any sort of scary local reputation of being able to take care of herself in a fight. So this notion of adapting from a 'staff fighter' is a strrrrrreeeeetch
She flies the millenium falcon WITHIN the atmosphere of a planet, in a damaged state, moving it so evasively that they can shoot down a tie fighter with an immobile gun. And what's sad is, most of us are willing to GIVE HER THAT. Take it, scene was fun, it was FINE. Her flying exploits are arguably better than Luke's but whatevs, we'll call it a wash.
So it is act one and she has now equaled Luke's power up over the course of his entire movie.
They go to Maz's bar and the lightsaber gives her flashbacks. She is then captured. And is about to be interrogated by Kylo Ren.
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ASIDE ON KYLO REN
No one is saying he is Vader.
No one. Which is fine, because they would never have pitted Luke in a lightsaber battle with Vader in ANH. Heck, he wouldn't have gone toe to toe with Bobba Fett. Heck, Luke did not even fight his own battle against a tough talking alien in a bar.
But this is how Kylo is introduced to us. He comes on to the planet, in command of a troop of Storm Troopers. He kills the old guy, he freezes a blaster bolt in space (something we have never seen before) and leaves. At this point everyone is thinking this guy is pretty badass and he has been set up as a bad guy. He also shows pretty good power extracting information from Poe. The first indication that he is not fully in control is his first tantrum, and yeah, ok, he has control issues (although one could argue all darkside practicioners should have far more of this). And in one of the few bits of exposition you have him talking to the Snoke and warned about the confrontation with his father and it being a test. It is there that we get the sense that he is not fully trained nor immersed in the dark side for the first time.
Nevertheless, through the little bits of exposition we get, we know he was Han and Leah's child (and thus probably knew Luke from birth). This is an adult who almost certainly started training early in his life. Knew Luke all his life.. He got Jedi training, and since turning has no doubt been trained by Snoke. So he is not a complete n00b. Feel free to argue that he is, I will have an aside on that later.
As for injuries at the end, the shot from Chewie might hurt, but he is showing little ill effect or issues with his movement.
So that is her opponent
ASIDE OVER
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Kylo tries to interrogate her, and has success at first, and she eventually starts fighting back, getting a flash of his thoughts. Good to see that his 20 years of training not only did not make him a master yet, but did not give him the control to best (or at least not had the tables turned by) someone who apparently had no inkling mind reading was a day before yesterday. This is not Rey beating Justin Spieth at match play. But it is Rey finishing all square against a 2 handicap with a college scholarship. But whatever, his deal is he is emotional, right, so maybe its not her, it is his conflict.
She then out of the blue gets the idea to Jedi Mind Trick a guard, No evidence she has ever witnessed one. Luke did witness one right away, and didn't use it until the third movie, if you are keeping score at home. But she decides she can do it and even after a spectacular failure decides instead of abandoning her sudden brainstorm and oh well I can't do that, that she will just . try. harder. And it works. And she escapes.
And so we come to the final battle. Kylo has been shot at but is showing full range of motion. Rey is out of commission so Finn does what he can, which while arguably more than he ought to be able to (remember back when lightsabers got shorter and almost fizzly when a trained Jedi's powers got weak? Well, not its just a laser sword (of Finn is an undiscovered Jedi). Any way, he basically manages to stall only, gets badly hurt, and is out of the fight. Now Ren and Rey both try to use the force on the same saber and it comes to her. Ok, fine, story needs it and they said it calls to her, so have at it.
And at first he is more or less driving her back. Gets her to the edge of a precipice, she has a concentration flashback to calm her, and it a good thing, because calmness will immediately get you out of being leveraged off a cliff but someone who has 8 inches and 80 pounds on you. She starts turning the tide in the lightsaber duel, with her vast one fight of staff experience, which must help a lot now that she has a much shorter weapon versus an opponent who has the reach on her, and who she isn't really outdoing with speed. At some point she manages to cut him (according to QuickTidal in the face leaving a scar ... it was unclear in one viewing). What is clear is she was winning, we were about to find out if potential Jedi girl will kill, and then *shocker* the earth splits and Kylo is out of range, and Chewie to the rescue. And all this is plausible because her blows are unorthodox and Kylo won't be used to those moves? She is
NOT USED TO ANY MOVES. She has no practice doing anything. If he can't defend a style he hasn't seen how can she defend any style? In her one documented staff fight to date, she was not parrying sword thrusts.
We get it, Kylo was powered down a bit to be able to be taken. But he is still set up as the villain the movie rests on, and set up from the jump as a dangerous force. And they had 2 (well 3, but QuickTidal is arguing the point and I am out of bandwidth for side fights) that could have been fighting at the same time to balance the scales, and they could have even shown Kylo more visibly wounded from the bowcaster. They didn't.
So don't tell me she does not show undocumented power up, and don't tell me she does less or shows less power up than Luke. I can allow for opinion on whether her participation and arc bothered people or not, but the notion that her progress is in any way in line with Lukes is just plain wrong.
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FINAL ASIDE ON VILLAIN POWER
Multiple people now have been telling us over and over how Kylo isn't Darth. He isn't big bad. There is no big bad. Movie didn't have one.
And that doesn't bug people even more than Rey? If you think Kylo is really messed up and bumbling enough that his loss is explainable, that means that in this movie, a set of keystone cops who controlled none of the galactic republic managed to build their own army and fleet, and build a weapon to put both Death Stars to shame with no one noticing and combating the threat.
And these bad guys are led by a dark master giving orders from afar, a fiery speaking general who underestimates all opposition. Their stormtroopers have a captain who gets taken hostage at gunpoint with no resistance and immediately drops the shields WITHOUT EVEN STALLING, and then is so easy to dispose of it happens offscreen. But that is ok, because the bad guys have to get past Kylo Ren, a training Jedi for years, who manages to kill 2 unarmed old men, interrogate one guy, and lose a fight to a girl who though Jedi were a myth a day ago. And he loses that fight with the base already blowing up. He had already lost, and the remaining stakes were a handful of lives, and he still loses this last fight.
I mean, yeah, in ANH the death star comically has one key weakness IN THE PLANS, but at least they need to look at the plans. The weakness isn't known by the guys in SANITATION.
The movie didn't have a big bad? Ok. And that isn't a problem for any of you?
END ASIDE
**********
So final score is Luke:
- Gets more exposure to and explanation of the force, and guidance from dead Obi-Wan.
- Can throw a cable to enable swinging.
- Can fire a blaster
- Flies really well and makes one great shot using the force.
And Rey:
Doesn't even know how much of the stories of the old rebellion (including the dark side and the light are even through)
- Outflies everyone but Poe.
- Resists a mind read and mind reads back
- Mind tricks a stormtrooper with no one ever telling her mind tricks are possible.
- Beats a much bigger much more trained fighter (or fights to a draw if you don't consider hitting someone in the face with a lightsaber a pretty definitive win)
And the defense of all of this is she uses trial and error with the force and has previous fighting experience with a staff (although we are given little indication it is extensive)
If the power up doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother you. But stop saying it is less than Luke. It is NOT. Not remotely. Kylo isn't Vader, but LUKE DOESN'T FIGHT VADER. Luke flies. That's it. I don't care about the 'Mary Sue' thing and whether she qualifies. I like that there is a female heroine. I like Daisy Ridley. Well played part. What I am telling you is that watching the most important scene in the film, I was stuck sitting there thinking "no way should the fight be going this way". I had rolled with the other stuff. It was already a tad on the full side, but until the lightsaber battle enough to dismiss.
And it was one of a few things that cut my enjoyment from "total immersion and I loved it" to "meh, I enjoyed it". And again, really the arguments being put forth in defense of the movie actually bug me far more than anything in the movie itself. Each time someone tries to explain to me how she is a veteran staff fighter and Kylo Ren is weak and out of control, I find myself liking the movie less.
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QuickTidal, on 29 December 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:
