[Andorion]

Briar King, on 28 December 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

It's just establishing that he can bullseye small targets better then the average joe.

And I think that

Spoiler

Reys rummaging, scrounging ways, the fact she has a running vehicle, which she probably keeps maintained herself were shown specifically to explain her engineering skills on the Falcon

This is one reason I don't like to talk about Mary Sue issues in films. Too little narrative space, so we have to make do with hints and deleted scenes

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 28 December 2015 - 03:30 AM, said:

You read my EU reply?

Oh yeah, I read them all. Thanks. I'll tell my friend next time we meet.

[LinearPhilosopher]

worry, on 28 December 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

Spoiler

I honestly think your argument (in spoilers) supports my point, or at least isn't a counterargument, but to clarify further: I think "Mary Sue" ignores the practicalities of her life on that planet, the known unknowns (ie her origins), and the fact that she quite clearly knows the OT recent history (since it's common knowledge). I think Han's "confirmation" of those stories as "real" is a bit overblown. He was never saying "Yeah, the Force is real. Luke was real." Everybody knows all this. That reading is like suggesting he confirmed George Washington was real and the American Revolution happened, to people who precede even 1812. No spit, Snurlock. He's just confirming that even some of the seemingly apocryphal stuff was true.

As far as her talent with the Force, who knows if she's been using it (unknowingly) all her life? She certainly doesn't sweat making huge leaps into dark cavernous depths. I don't know if there's a big line between prodigy and adept, but I'd favor the latter in her case in the same way Malazites use it (though I'd say the same of Anakin too). These are both "chosen" of the Force, which very much means QT's evocation of fantasy over sf is quite vital. That may strike people as generic in and of itself, but 1) Star Wars is in part an attempt at mythology and 2) Rey is closer to a twisting of the trope in the same way Paran and Crokus are. She's got some of the usual resistance-to-fate cliches, but she's certainly not a naive farm girl, and she's excited by her blooming (or at least, now-acknowledged) power. That she has a uniquely high power level seemingly early makes her extraordinary, but that's why she's the co-protagonist in the first place. Extraordinary people exist, she's one of them. It's not that weird. 42 is about Jackie Robinson, the extraordinary baseball player, not the kid he played stickball with who grew up to run a donut shop. You could make that film too, even well, but it wouldn't be a great baseball movie.

Spoiler

But there's a difference between using the force sub consciously and using it consciously. The part about learning how to be a space ship mechanic and a pilot i can get. She's a salvager she has to know about ships and being strong in the force does make you a good pilot. However for her to suddenly go from this raw force prodigy to using techniques like force persuasion (how does she even know this is a thing, earlier in the movie the force and luke were semi myths to her) it became too much. The fact she just ends up getting powerups whenever the plot deems it convenient is just bad writing. I guarantee you there's a way you could have written the movie in such a way that she didn't need to have these constant powerups to make a good narrative.

Andorion, on 28 December 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

I think both Silencer and Worry have made good points.

Spoiler

Kylo is nowhere near the level of a Sith Lord. He has a lot of force power, but it seems to me its mostly raw and unchannelled. He couldn't break through Rey's mind, his lightsaber style looked a lot like him flaying around, he is emotionally unstable. Inn terms of competence, he is probably near a mid-level Padawan of the old Republic. He will be trained, and he will grow as I think he will now embrace the Dark Side more fully.

Ren is exactly like Luke or Anakin. She is a natural. And I think its made quite clear that when Kylo botched up his interrogation he did something that unlocked the force within Ren. Bt even then I think we can agree that judging by her last fight she doesn't have a lot of discipline in her movements. Clearly she has much to learn as well.

Finally I really don't think Star Wars is a series were we can talk about realistic/unrealistic power ups. Luke was this ignorant farmer kid in New Hope and he blew up a death star at the end of the movie. Where did that X Wing skill come from? Force. Luke never has anything near the amount of training and practice that Vader did, so Vader defeated him in ESB. what changed from ESB to RotJ in terms of Luke's training? Nothing much really but he beat Vader in the end.

Compared to that, I think Ren's story is far more believable. She has been scrounging a living alone in a hostile environment. She has had to repair and salvage machinery and fight of thieves. Clearly the force has been flowing through her for some time. And her big victory comes against a half trained injured emotional wreck.

Spoiler

I disagree with SW being free from this kind of critique. You do see luke stumble in his training, frequently. Rey's never had any formal training in the force and already shes amazing at everything? Unless there's something specific to the SW universe im missing, using something consciously and unconsciouly are two VERY different things.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 28 December 2015 - 03:45 PM

[Andorion]

LinearPhilosopher, on 28 December 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

worry, on 28 December 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

Spoiler

I honestly think your argument (in spoilers) supports my point, or at least isn't a counterargument, but to clarify further: I think "Mary Sue" ignores the practicalities of her life on that planet, the known unknowns (ie her origins), and the fact that she quite clearly knows the OT recent history (since it's common knowledge). I think Han's "confirmation" of those stories as "real" is a bit overblown. He was never saying "Yeah, the Force is real. Luke was real." Everybody knows all this. That reading is like suggesting he confirmed George Washington was real and the American Revolution happened, to people who precede even 1812. No spit, Snurlock. He's just confirming that even some of the seemingly apocryphal stuff was true.

As far as her talent with the Force, who knows if she's been using it (unknowingly) all her life? She certainly doesn't sweat making huge leaps into dark cavernous depths. I don't know if there's a big line between prodigy and adept, but I'd favor the latter in her case in the same way Malazites use it (though I'd say the same of Anakin too). These are both "chosen" of the Force, which very much means QT's evocation of fantasy over sf is quite vital. That may strike people as generic in and of itself, but 1) Star Wars is in part an attempt at mythology and 2) Rey is closer to a twisting of the trope in the same way Paran and Crokus are. She's got some of the usual resistance-to-fate cliches, but she's certainly not a naive farm girl, and she's excited by her blooming (or at least, now-acknowledged) power. That she has a uniquely high power level seemingly early makes her extraordinary, but that's why she's the co-protagonist in the first place. Extraordinary people exist, she's one of them. It's not that weird. 42 is about Jackie Robinson, the extraordinary baseball player, not the kid he played stickball with who grew up to run a donut shop. You could make that film too, even well, but it wouldn't be a great baseball movie.

Spoiler

But there's a difference between using the force sub consciously and using it consciously. The part about learning how to be a space ship mechanic and a pilot i can get. She's a salvager she has to know about ships and being strong in the force does make you a good pilot. However for her to suddenly go from this raw force prodigy to using techniques like force persuasion (how does she even know this is a thing, earlier in the movie the force and luke were semi myths to her) it became too much. The fact she just ends up getting powerups whenever the plot deems it convenient is just bad writing. I guarantee you there's a way you could have written the movie in such a way that she didn't need to have these constant powerups to make a good narrative.

Andorion, on 28 December 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

I think both Silencer and Worry have made good points.

Spoiler

Kylo is nowhere near the level of a Sith Lord. He has a lot of force power, but it seems to me its mostly raw and unchannelled. He couldn't break through Rey's mind, his lightsaber style looked a lot like him flaying around, he is emotionally unstable. Inn terms of competence, he is probably near a mid-level Padawan of the old Republic. He will be trained, and he will grow as I think he will now embrace the Dark Side more fully.

Ren is exactly like Luke or Anakin. She is a natural. And I think its made quite clear that when Kylo botched up his interrogation he did something that unlocked the force within Ren. Bt even then I think we can agree that judging by her last fight she doesn't have a lot of discipline in her movements. Clearly she has much to learn as well.

Finally I really don't think Star Wars is a series were we can talk about realistic/unrealistic power ups. Luke was this ignorant farmer kid in New Hope and he blew up a death star at the end of the movie. Where did that X Wing skill come from? Force. Luke never has anything near the amount of training and practice that Vader did, so Vader defeated him in ESB. what changed from ESB to RotJ in terms of Luke's training? Nothing much really but he beat Vader in the end.

Compared to that, I think Ren's story is far more believable. She has been scrounging a living alone in a hostile environment. She has had to repair and salvage machinery and fight of thieves. Clearly the force has been flowing through her for some time. And her big victory comes against a half trained injured emotional wreck.

Spoiler

I disagree with SW being free from this kind of critique. You do see luke stumble in his training, frequently. Rey's never had any formal training in the force and already shes amazing at everything? Unless there's something specific to the SW universe im missing, using something consciously and unconsciouly are two VERY different things.

Spoiler

My point is that Rey had a far more rugged life than Luke which probably made her more proficient with the force, and she has not faced anything near what Luke faced in the original trilogy. Kylo is not that tough an opponent. We will see how she stumbles in training in the next movie



And its my opinion we don't really see anything near realistic power/character progression for Luke, so I don't expect it for Rey.

[QuickTidal]

This is a good article to read for those who are erroneously claiming that Rey is a Mary Sue (which is bollocks).

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 28 December 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

This is a good article to read for those who are erroneously claiming that Rey is a Mary Sue (which is bollocks).

Nice link, QT! I agree with the author, especially on that bit about Kylo.

Spoiler

I mean that interrogation scene was pretty explicit

.

I read your comments upthread about the EU adding context to the movie, and am now extremely interested. If you don;t mind, what are the EU books already out and are more coming out in 2016?

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 28 December 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 28 December 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

This is a good article to read for those who are erroneously claiming that Rey is a Mary Sue (which is bollocks).

Nice link, QT! I agree with the author, especially on that bit about Kylo.

Spoiler

I mean that interrogation scene was pretty explicit

.

I read your comments upthread about the EU adding context to the movie, and am now extremely interested. If you don;t mind, what are the EU books already out and are more coming out in 2016?

For exclusively New Canon stuff:
You've got TARKIN by James Luceno (probably everyone's fave of the lot so far),

LORDS OF THE SITH by Paul S. Kemp (good fun, some solid info about Palpatine and Vader)

AFTERMATH by Chuck Wendig (this is an acquired taste since the author uses short sentenced prose, and the main narrative doesn't talk much about the wider conflict or include much about the OT trio...but one of the main characters is Temmin "Snaps" Wexley [when he was 15] who is played in TFA by Greg Grunberg and is an X-Wing pilot...but it's a nice little side adventure post ROTJ and first in a trilogy).

The novellas (YA ones really) are good to read as well as they fill out some things from the TFA era: THE WEAPON OF A JEDI by Jason Fry (a Luke-centric story that has him visiting an old Jedi Temple [one from the clone wars, that was actually featured ON TCW tv show...the Jedi who died there in that ep are featured as presences to Luke in this story] and introduces another TFA character named Sarco Plank). There are two other novellas (MOVING TARGET, SMUGGLER'S RUN) but you don't need to read them unless you want some extra adventures with Leia and Han and Chewie, though there is a 4th novella that just came out called BEFORE THE AWAKENING by Greg Rucka which is about Rey, Poe, and Finn respectively just before TFA (I've not read it yet though so I can't comment).

Then you have the comics: SHATTERED EMPIRE (4 issue miniseries that speaks about Poe's parentage, and Luke's initial search for Jedi artifacts [which the Emperor kept under lock and key] after ROTJ), and the main storyline Marvel comics STAR WARS (at issue #13 so far) which takes place between ANH and TESB) features neat little nuggets of fill out info like Leia going to Naboo on a diplomatic Rebellion mission and walking into the old hangar (the one from TPM where Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan first encounter Maul) and sensing Darth Maul there...depends if you are into comics, but the mini-series is worth reading and the main line.

NEW DAWN by John Jackson Miller (Rebels-era novel) this one is only worth your time if you watch STAR WARS: REBELS and are curious about how Hera and Kanan met in the first place. If you watch the show, it will be of worth to you, if you don't then you needn't bother.

LOST STARS by Claudia Gray (this SEEMS to be a fave of lots of people) It's YA and features a pretty bog-standard romeo and Juliet type story of two childhood friends who end up on opposing sides of the Civil War. They are basically present at every major event and battle from the OT movies (which seemed unbelievable to me)...and only feature two pieces of info that are in any way important to the TFA universe...so I'll type them here and spoiler them for you in case you want to know, but wish to skip the novel.

Spoiler

You know that scene on Geonosis from ATTACK OF THE CLONES where Obi-Wan, Padme, and Anakin are being held by the Geonosians and Count Dooku to be killed in the arena and are subsequently saved by a platoon of Jedi led by Mace Windu? Turns out that the propaganda machine is in FULL swing afterwards...Imperials at the academy during A NEW HOPE are apparently taught that Windu and the Jedi were a band of criminal thugs who interfered with a perfectly legal execution. I found this important as it helps paint a picture of the lengths that Palpatine an Vader went to after the Republic fell to discredit not only the Jedi, but tanyone associated with them as villains, traitors, and criminals who interfered with proper justice.

The other thing you learn is that one of the two leads (Ciena Ree who is the one who joins and fights for the Empire) is eventually the commander of the Star Destroyer that is above Jakku during that battle, and as it is boarded by Rebels in the latter portion of the battle decides it's better to crash it into the planet than to let the Rebels have it. This means that the Star Destroyer that Rey is scavenging in when she first shows up in TFA is the same ship that the lead character from this novel downs in the battle years earlier.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 December 2015 - 04:46 PM

[LinearPhilosopher]

Andorion, on 28 December 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 28 December 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

This is a good article to read for those who are erroneously claiming that Rey is a Mary Sue (which is bollocks).

Nice link, QT! I agree with the author, especially on that bit about Kylo.

Spoiler

I mean that interrogation scene was pretty explicit

.

I read your comments upthread about the EU adding context to the movie, and am now extremely interested. If you don;t mind, what are the EU books already out and are more coming out in 2016?

at least that reviewer has good taste in movies (i rather enjoyed my dinner with andre)

Spoiler

Meanwhile, is Rey unrealistically competent? She’s good at fixing machines, having spent her entire life as a scavenger taking apart the crashed spaceships on Jakku. She’s a good pilot, and maybe figures out how to fly an unfamiliar spaceship rather quickly. And she’s strong in the Force, learning to use Force powers incredibly fast. Just as most of The Force Awakens is pretty explicitly patterned on A New Hope, Rey is basically this movie’s answer to Luke Skywalker. Luke touches a lightsaber for the first time about 45 minutes into A New Hope, and is using the Force pretty brilliantly by the end of the movie.

But still, Rey’s prowess in this film is pretty incredible, considering that she doesn’t have Obi-Wan to train her. There are lots of hints that she had some training when she was a child, but in any case, this seems to be one of those “just go with it” things.

(I’d also argue that—SPOILER ALERT!—Kylo Ren teaches Rey a lot about using the Force. Every time she gets better at using it in this film, it’s right after Kylo Ren has tried to use it against her. She sees what he’s doing, and copies it. I thought it was fairly explicit that Kylo Ren is Rey’s “teacher” in this movie.)

Spoiler

Luke uses the force well at the end of the movie yes, but aside from enhancing his piloting and hitting a small target (which as others have said is something he had previous experience doing). He doesn't however immediately start using advanced force techniques without even being introduced to it. Rey just picks up force persuasion (amongst other things) and this is on top of everything else i mentioned earlier (it takes her two shots to become a proficient marksman?????)

And finally the author herself even says "just go with it"... right cause thinking critically isn't encouraged eh?

@ andorion

Spoiler

With all these discussions about kylo's weaknesses, i'm starting to see it to a degree. Weakened as he was though it seems rather contrived however he starts the fight off destroying here and than at the cliched momenet she just start overpowering him? All that's missing from this scene is some speech about the power of friendship

And i feel like i've said this before, using the force subconsciously is different thant consciously using advanced techniques like force persuasion.

[Coco with marshmallows]

personal (nerdy) note:

Spoiler

About Rey beating Ren with a lightsaber.

I was perfectly fine with this.

We're explicitly shown that she's a proficient user of a staff weapon, and i've yet to meat a staff user (Bo, Jo, Quaterstaff or even Escrima sticks) who couldn't transfer those skills into sword use.

Just my 0.02

Also, SUPER nerdy thing - the swordsman Miyamoto Musashi was said to have only ever lost one duel - to a staff user.

[QuickTidal]

LinearPhilosopher, on 28 December 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Spoiler

Luke uses the force well at the end of the movie yes, but aside from enhancing his piloting and hitting a small target (which as others have said is something he had previous experience doing). He doesn't however immediately start using advanced force techniques without even being introduced to it. Rey just picks up force persuasion (amongst other things) and this is on top of everything else i mentioned earlier (it takes her two shots to become a proficient marksman?????)

And finally the author herself even says "just go with it"... right cause thinking critically isn't encouraged eh?

Spoiler

Luke's proficiency with the force comes on fast in ANH. Other than an early life as a good pilot (bulls-eyeing womprats, t-16 flight ect) he is given a lightsaber and trains with it for...what? A minute or two before being able to deflect a bunch of alternated blaster bolts from the remote, with the blast shield down on the helmet? Obi-Wan's "training" in those few minutes equates to "Use the force, let it be your eyes". He is then given a rebellion starfighter (one he's never seen before, let alone flown) and not only allowed to fly the sortie INTO the trench run, but one of the selected X-wings who will take a stab at the exhaust port...then survives EVERYONE else on the squadron's (Except Wedge Antilles) deaths at the hands of tie fighters or Vader's tie commander ship, eludes MOST of Vader's attempts (remember, this is Anakin Skywalker...arguably the VERY best pilot in the galaxy) on taking him out, AND then uses the force to drop torpedoes through a hole they barely fit into.

Literally the ONLY difference between Rey and Luke if we consider the above skills, is her attempt (and success) at the Jedi Mind trick.

Even the lightsaber skills she exhibits are pretty inherent from her staff skills (her weapon of choice for god knows how long of her 15 years on Jakku). If your watch her lightsaber fight with Kylo the style she is using is the same she used with her staff fighting off Unkar Plutt's minions on Jakku earlier in the film, just with a sword. I paid special attention the second time I saw it and the motions she makes with the lightsaber are long thrusting stab attempts one would make with a staff of greater reach. The other bits of the fight she's DEFENDING against Ren's brutal claymore-wielding slashes. Here offensive moves are all staff-like. Not at all the type of saber fighter we've seen before in any of the fights in the OT or the Clone Wars...in fact the CLOSEST to that style is Palpatine in ROTS, his particular style is long thrusting stabbing movements with the blade that he augments with flips, spins, and flourishes. Does she hold her own against Kylo inexplicably? Nah, he's got three things working against him.

He is wounded.
He is surprised that the saber goes to her.
He is holding back. He is at war in himself for wanting to get rid of her, and train her.

Calling her a Mary Sue is basically saying that with Luke we called it "okay", but she needs to be brought down because no one would be that skilled off the hop. Which is bullshit. The entire Star Wars universe is filled with people who are exceptionally good at things when they should not be good at...due to the force.

LinearPhilosopher, on 28 December 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

@ andorion

Spoiler

With all these discussions about kylo's weaknesses, i'm starting to see it to a degree. Weakened as he was though it seems rather contrived however he starts the fight off destroying here and than at the cliched moment she just start overpowering him? All that's missing from this scene is some speech about the power of friendship

Spoiler

This is the same thing that she experiences when he invades her mind, he is literally telling her to use the force against him without knowing it. And this is her Luke-exhaust-port, "Use the Force" moment. It's just that instead of Obi-Wan calmly instructing him to do it....it's Kylo Ren angrily claiming he can teach her because of how strong she is...both things are only reminders to center ones-self and allow the force to guide your hand. Which she does. Assuming that it was okay for Luke, but it's not okay for Rey is a terrible double standard.

LinearPhilosopher, on 28 December 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Spoiler

And i feel like i've said this before, using the force subconsciously is different thant consciously using advanced techniques like force persuasion.

Spoiler

Nonsense. Source? New AND old Canon dictate that force sensitives can find skills without being specifically trained. Is Luke trained in Jedi Mind Tricks? Nope. He SAW Obi-Wan do it, that's it...but neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda ever trained Luke to do it...he learned on his own (probably by practice...which is EXACTLY how Rey accomplishes it). He also learned the majority of his lightsaber proficiency in TESB and ROTJ all by his lonesome. Ezra Bridger on REBELS is EXCEPTIONALLY skilled in the force from the outset, and had been doing things like the mind trick since before he ever met a Jedi on Lothal.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 December 2015 - 06:00 PM

[LinearPhilosopher]

Coco with marshmallows, on 28 December 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

personal (nerdy) note:

Spoiler

About Rey beating Ren with a lightsaber.

I was perfectly fine with this.

We're explicitly shown that she's a proficient user of a staff weapon, and i've yet to meat a staff user (Bo, Jo, Quaterstaff or even Escrima sticks) who couldn't transfer those skills into sword use.

Just my 0.02

Also, SUPER nerdy thing - the swordsman Miyamoto Musashi was said to have only ever lost one duel - to a staff user.

TIL

@qt

Spoiler

Glad i finally got you to make points for yourself. It's not normal i have to prod for so long to get a good response out of a person.

For starters, looks like my memory of the old trilogy is quite dated. I just remebered luke getting his ass kicked by the remote. Also didn't draw onto the fact that annakin being a great fighter pilot meant darth vader is an ace amongst ace pilots. My bad on that. Luke's a pretty big gary stu alright... but it's not as egregious as rey is.

Again her being a good pilot, good mechanic, i get it makes sense. Her fighting prowess, based off coco's post, it makes sense. The rest it just goes over the top. As for SW filled with ppl who shouldn't be able to do what they can, you're the SW expert here not I. I just lookup random articles on wookiepedia and played kotor1+2.(and by virtue of being video games, set the difficulty high enough and you will see the protagonist fail... A LOT, but i digress, different mediums afterall.)

"New AND old Canon dictate that force sensitives can find skills without being specifically trained."

Well thats a new one. Ill concede this point to you easily then.

But here's the thing then, luke see obi wan to do it. How does rey know this is even possible? Luke may have learned the majority of his lightsaber skills in those films however i was led to believe that there was some downtime in between loosing his hand and the start of the new film. Critically there was at least some training we where seeing, some way of explaining his growing skills (as paper thin as it was). I didn't watch much of rebels but i do recall in the seige of lothal him trying and failing at it, kanaan had to do it.

At the end of the day, force this force that, even if internally consistent, from a narrative standpoint you're left with the same. A character with no discernible flaws, who develops new powers and skills out of nowhere because it's the easy way for that character to resolve the problem in front of them. It's boring, whenever they are in a tight spot, there's no tension at all cause you know they'll just pull another ability out of their ass and save the day. In ep5, luke almost died and got his ass handed to him. That's why im willing to overlook or selectively remeber stuff (its been ages since i've seen the films after all).

Now if in the next movie we find out rey isn't all perfect and she does have meaningful weaknesses ill gladly change my assesment of her from mary sue to well rounded badass. But until that occurs i don't see how she can be anything but a mary sue, and this way of using the force is nothing but a cop ought to write power fantasies.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 28 December 2015 - 07:25 PM

[Traveller]

In regards to Rey and mind tricks

Spoiler

when I watched it I saw the scene with Ren attempting to invade her mind a training of sorts. We'd already seen him 'break' Poe. We've seen jedi mind tricks used as distraction and misdirection, but apart from a disturbing scene in CW where a group of jedi try to forcefully get information out of someone who resists, we've not seen it used in such a brutal way before.

Rey is getting her mind invaded - but she resists. He tries harder. She sees him struggle. And feels his doubt at his own failure. She can also read his expression as she can see his face - she knows something is up; that she's doing something new that she didn't know she could.

When she gets left, and thinks of using the same trick to get free, it is not 'out of the blue.'.. she was just made aware of it and her own ability in the scene right before.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 28 December 2015 - 08:18 PM

[Silencer]

LinearPhilosopher, on 28 December 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

Coco with marshmallows, on 28 December 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

personal (nerdy) note:

Spoiler

About Rey beating Ren with a lightsaber.

I was perfectly fine with this.

We're explicitly shown that she's a proficient user of a staff weapon, and i've yet to meat a staff user (Bo, Jo, Quaterstaff or even Escrima sticks) who couldn't transfer those skills into sword use.

Just my 0.02

Also, SUPER nerdy thing - the swordsman Miyamoto Musashi was said to have only ever lost one duel - to a staff user.

TIL

@qt

Spoiler

Glad i finally got you to make points for yourself. It's not normal i have to prod for so long to get a good response out of a person.

For starters, looks like my memory of the old trilogy is quite dated. I just remebered luke getting his ass kicked by the remote. Also didn't draw onto the fact that annakin being a great fighter pilot meant darth vader is an ace amongst ace pilots. My bad on that. Luke's a pretty big gary stu alright... but it's not as egregious as rey is.

Again her being a good pilot, good mechanic, i get it makes sense. Her fighting prowess, based off coco's post, it makes sense. The rest it just goes over the top. As for SW filled with ppl who shouldn't be able to do what they can, you're the SW expert here not I. I just lookup random articles on wookiepedia and played kotor1+2.(and by virtue of being video games, set the difficulty high enough and you will see the protagonist fail... A LOT, but i digress, different mediums afterall.)

"New AND old Canon dictate that force sensitives can find skills without being specifically trained."

Well thats a new one. Ill concede this point to you easily then.

But here's the thing then, luke see obi wan to do it. How does rey know this is even possible? Luke may have learned the majority of his lightsaber skills in those films however i was led to believe that there was some downtime in between loosing his hand and the start of the new film. Critically there was at least some training we where seeing, some way of explaining his growing skills (as paper thin as it was). I didn't watch much of rebels but i do recall in the seige of lothal him trying and failing at it, kanaan had to do it.

At the end of the day, force this force that, even if internally consistent, from a narrative standpoint you're left with the same. A character with no discernible flaws, who develops new powers and skills out of nowhere because it's the easy way for that character to resolve the problem in front of them. It's boring, whenever they are in a tight spot, there's no tension at all cause you know they'll just pull another ability out of their ass and save the day. In ep5, luke almost died and got his ass handed to him. That's why im willing to overlook or selectively remeber stuff (its been ages since i've seen the films after all).

Now if in the next movie we find out rey isn't all perfect and she does have meaningful weaknesses ill gladly change my assesment of her from mary sue to well rounded badass. But until that occurs i don't see how she can be anything but a mary sue, and this way of using the force is nothing but a cop ought to write power fantasies.

If you think Rey had no discernible flaws you need to rewatch it. She has flaws.

And I think you're deliberately rushing into calling her a Mary Sue. As you note, Luke didn't get his comeuppance until episode 5. We don't have our ep 5 yet, but we know it's there.

The difference is, no one complained how good Luke wad in ANH. But apparently when it's Rey, she doesn't get any leeway, it's just unbelievable. Huh.


As for the argument, all of her skills are well established. And her sudden Force proficiency is all but stated outright to come from the scene with Ren. And even then, she uses it for one thing. Once. Until the fight when she taps in again.

It's totally unreasonable to call it Mary Sue. Especially when I guarantee you she's going to come down hard in episode 8. (due to her already established character flaws you seem to have missed) or if not then, it will be in 9. But I'm pretty sure it's going to happen in 8.

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 28 December 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

Andorion, on 28 December 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 28 December 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

This is a good article to read for those who are erroneously claiming that Rey is a Mary Sue (which is bollocks).

Nice link, QT! I agree with the author, especially on that bit about Kylo.

Spoiler

I mean that interrogation scene was pretty explicit

.

I read your comments upthread about the EU adding context to the movie, and am now extremely interested. If you don;t mind, what are the EU books already out and are more coming out in 2016?

For exclusively New Canon stuff:
You've got TARKIN by James Luceno (probably everyone's fave of the lot so far),

LORDS OF THE SITH by Paul S. Kemp (good fun, some solid info about Palpatine and Vader)

AFTERMATH by Chuck Wendig (this is an acquired taste since the author uses short sentenced prose, and the main narrative doesn't talk much about the wider conflict or include much about the OT trio...but one of the main characters is Temmin "Snaps" Wexley [when he was 15] who is played in TFA by Greg Grunberg and is an X-Wing pilot...but it's a nice little side adventure post ROTJ and first in a trilogy).

The novellas (YA ones really) are good to read as well as they fill out some things from the TFA era: THE WEAPON OF A JEDI by Jason Fry (a Luke-centric story that has him visiting an old Jedi Temple [one from the clone wars, that was actually featured ON TCW tv show...the Jedi who died there in that ep are featured as presences to Luke in this story] and introduces another TFA character named Sarco Plank). There are two other novellas (MOVING TARGET, SMUGGLER'S RUN) but you don't need to read them unless you want some extra adventures with Leia and Han and Chewie, though there is a 4th novella that just came out called BEFORE THE AWAKENING by Greg Rucka which is about Rey, Poe, and Finn respectively just before TFA (I've not read it yet though so I can't comment).

Then you have the comics: SHATTERED EMPIRE (4 issue miniseries that speaks about Poe's parentage, and Luke's initial search for Jedi artifacts [which the Emperor kept under lock and key] after ROTJ), and the main storyline Marvel comics STAR WARS (at issue #13 so far) which takes place between ANH and TESB) features neat little nuggets of fill out info like Leia going to Naboo on a diplomatic Rebellion mission and walking into the old hangar (the one from TPM where Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan first encounter Maul) and sensing Darth Maul there...depends if you are into comics, but the mini-series is worth reading and the main line.

NEW DAWN by John Jackson Miller (Rebels-era novel) this one is only worth your time if you watch STAR WARS: REBELS and are curious about how Hera and Kanan met in the first place. If you watch the show, it will be of worth to you, if you don't then you needn't bother.

LOST STARS by Claudia Gray (this SEEMS to be a fave of lots of people) It's YA and features a pretty bog-standard romeo and Juliet type story of two childhood friends who end up on opposing sides of the Civil War. They are basically present at every major event and battle from the OT movies (which seemed unbelievable to me)...and only feature two pieces of info that are in any way important to the TFA universe...so I'll type them here and spoiler them for you in case you want to know, but wish to skip the novel.

Spoiler

You know that scene on Geonosis from ATTACK OF THE CLONES where Obi-Wan, Padme, and Anakin are being held by the Geonosians and Count Dooku to be killed in the arena and are subsequently saved by a platoon of Jedi led by Mace Windu? Turns out that the propaganda machine is in FULL swing afterwards...Imperials at the academy during A NEW HOPE are apparently taught that Windu and the Jedi were a band of criminal thugs who interfered with a perfectly legal execution. I found this important as it helps paint a picture of the lengths that Palpatine an Vader went to after the Republic fell to discredit not only the Jedi, but tanyone associated with them as villains, traitors, and criminals who interfered with proper justice.

The other thing you learn is that one of the two leads (Ciena Ree who is the one who joins and fights for the Empire) is eventually the commander of the Star Destroyer that is above Jakku during that battle, and as it is boarded by Rebels in the latter portion of the battle decides it's better to crash it into the planet than to let the Rebels have it. This means that the Star Destroyer that Rey is scavenging in when she first shows up in TFA is the same ship that the lead character from this novel downs in the battle years earlier.

Thanks! time to start working them into the TBR.

[paran falcon]

Saw it last Wednesday night but haven't had a chance to post about it. The whole family, at the very least, thoroughly enjoyed it. My daughter (15) and son (13) both declared 10 out of 10 and their desire to go see it again. My son, the huge Fett fan, was a little miffed at the role Phasma was given. My daughter LOVED Ren, as I knew she would, and

Spoiler

was crushed at Han Solo's death.

As for me, the first serious chills I got was when "the piece of junk" turned out to be the Millenium Falcon. I fell in love all over again and twice as hard watching her go! Favorite ship ever.

Spoiler

Considering she was relegated to junk status for who knows how long, it stretches credibility that she kept flying after the roughness of Ren's piloting but I won't complain much about that.

Like most, it seems, I loved Ren, start to finish. Couldn't get enough of her. I've read the Mary Sue thing but I'm with the majority of the counter-arguments to that.

Spoiler

I certainly felt like Kylo Ren opened or re-opened her to the Force during his failed attempt to break her. As to the lightsaber fight, I agree that she looked like she was using staff fighting style moves during it. Kylo Ren had none of the smoothness or polish of an experienced or well trained swordsman. (By the way, I LOVE the look of Kylo's saber - I'll take mine in green, please! - but I'm still not sure about the functionality of it.) Combine that with his mental state and physical injuries, and I didn't find it out of line that Finn and Ren both had some success against him.

I really liked the way Kylo Ren was done.

Spoiler

I was glad to have the villain not be a carbon copy of Darth Vader. Kylo seems to be living and going about things like he's Vader but he doesn't even believe he's there and to me, he's mentally still where Anakin was before the end of RoTS. That should make for some good contrast in storyline in the upcoming film or two.

About 2/3 of the way through the movie

Spoiler

I was very aware how the plot was mirroring ANH. By the end, I felt that was the biggest downside of the film. I get why it was that way but...I knew Han Solo was gone the second he set foot on that catwalk. It didn't hurt me as badly as I would've thought if you'd told me he dies before I went to see it. Maybe because it was time someone went or maybe because it's a meaningful point in Kylo Ren's evolution. It was...strange watching Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher both try to revive their roles. It was fun but it also did not seem smooth or comfortable at all, at times. It really has been a long time.

Overall, I found TFA quite an enjoyable experience. The whole family is fully committed to seeing it in theater again and I haven't done that since before my kids were born. In fact. I don't even know the last movie I went to see more than once.

[worry]

Spoiler

Re: Phasma, I think it's plausible she'll be seen again. Joking about it is one thing, but I just don't believe that Finn, Han, and Chewie would toss her into a trash compacter. So really it's a matter of the timeline of her getting into an escape ship. If not, I agree it's kind of a waste.

I agree with Silencer that Rey will hit some major lows in Ep 8 too. I don't think 8 and 9 will be such on the nose homages to ESB and ROTJ, but I do think the basic framework of darkest before dawn will hold for the trilogy.

[Tsundoku]

Where's Rey?

http://www.news.com....3a0591248965ee4

[Andorion]

Tsundoku, on 29 December 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

Where's Rey?

http://www.news.com....3a0591248965ee4

That is just disgusting

[LinearPhilosopher]

Tsundoku, on 29 December 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

Where's Rey?

http://www.news.com....3a0591248965ee4

Dear god.. what a fuckup on idk whos part. Hurts brand image, hurts sales...

Silencer, on 29 December 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 28 December 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

Coco with marshmallows, on 28 December 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

personal (nerdy) note:

Spoiler

About Rey beating Ren with a lightsaber.

I was perfectly fine with this.

We're explicitly shown that she's a proficient user of a staff weapon, and i've yet to meat a staff user (Bo, Jo, Quaterstaff or even Escrima sticks) who couldn't transfer those skills into sword use.

Just my 0.02

Also, SUPER nerdy thing - the swordsman Miyamoto Musashi was said to have only ever lost one duel - to a staff user.

TIL

@qt

Spoiler

Glad i finally got you to make points for yourself. It's not normal i have to prod for so long to get a good response out of a person.

For starters, looks like my memory of the old trilogy is quite dated. I just remebered luke getting his ass kicked by the remote. Also didn't draw onto the fact that annakin being a great fighter pilot meant darth vader is an ace amongst ace pilots. My bad on that. Luke's a pretty big gary stu alright... but it's not as egregious as rey is.

Again her being a good pilot, good mechanic, i get it makes sense. Her fighting prowess, based off coco's post, it makes sense. The rest it just goes over the top. As for SW filled with ppl who shouldn't be able to do what they can, you're the SW expert here not I. I just lookup random articles on wookiepedia and played kotor1+2.(and by virtue of being video games, set the difficulty high enough and you will see the protagonist fail... A LOT, but i digress, different mediums afterall.)

"New AND old Canon dictate that force sensitives can find skills without being specifically trained."

Well thats a new one. Ill concede this point to you easily then.

But here's the thing then, luke see obi wan to do it. How does rey know this is even possible? Luke may have learned the majority of his lightsaber skills in those films however i was led to believe that there was some downtime in between loosing his hand and the start of the new film. Critically there was at least some training we where seeing, some way of explaining his growing skills (as paper thin as it was). I didn't watch much of rebels but i do recall in the seige of lothal him trying and failing at it, kanaan had to do it.

At the end of the day, force this force that, even if internally consistent, from a narrative standpoint you're left with the same. A character with no discernible flaws, who develops new powers and skills out of nowhere because it's the easy way for that character to resolve the problem in front of them. It's boring, whenever they are in a tight spot, there's no tension at all cause you know they'll just pull another ability out of their ass and save the day. In ep5, luke almost died and got his ass handed to him. That's why im willing to overlook or selectively remeber stuff (its been ages since i've seen the films after all).

Now if in the next movie we find out rey isn't all perfect and she does have meaningful weaknesses ill gladly change my assesment of her from mary sue to well rounded badass. But until that occurs i don't see how she can be anything but a mary sue, and this way of using the force is nothing but a cop ought to write power fantasies.

If you think Rey had no discernible flaws you need to rewatch it. She has flaws.

And I think you're deliberately rushing into calling her a Mary Sue. As you note, Luke didn't get his comeuppance until episode 5. We don't have our ep 5 yet, but we know it's there.

The difference is, no one complained how good Luke wad in ANH. But apparently when it's Rey, she doesn't get any leeway, it's just unbelievable. Huh.


As for the argument, all of her skills are well established. And her sudden Force proficiency is all but stated outright to come from the scene with Ren. And even then, she uses it for one thing. Once. Until the fight when she taps in again.

It's totally unreasonable to call it Mary Sue. Especially when I guarantee you she's going to come down hard in episode 8. (due to her already established character flaws you seem to have missed) or if not then, it will be in 9. But I'm pretty sure it's going to happen in 8.

Spoiler

sorry but im not a big enough SW fan im going to spend money to rewatch the movie just to settle a point on the internet. But just so we're on equal ground, what the hell are her flaws? And all of her skills are well established? Force this force that yada yada... So as long as there's a convenient plot device to explain why a character gets all these ridiculous powerups she's not a mary sue? right... Doesn't make her any less boring in my eyes (though the discussion is anything but, im quite enjoying this exercise)

No one complained how good luke was in ANH but guess what he
A) didn't rise as high as rey did in one movie,
b)had the whole ignorant farm boy going on real hard,
c) pretty sure the mary and gary sue trope didn't exist or wasn't a big deal because our standards and expectations of media grow over time, espacially when we are inundated with new media. 30 years ago it wasn't a big deal. It is now as we expect better writing (at least i do, speak for yourselves if you disagree)
d) I even called him a gary sue. Focus on the argument at hand, diversionary tactics are beneath you.

ep 8: i already gave my opinion on this, If shit changes ill accept the changes. But i'm sticking to the information i have now. Not gona change my opinion based on speculation

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 29 December 2015 - 07:05 AM

[worry]

Diversionary tactics are indeed beneath Silencer.

Spoiler

They are not beneath me, however!

Spoiler