I'm going to try again Wednesday if everything works out right. I think a 2nd time will help out big time. Hopefully Finn won't grate me so much this time except for
Spoiler
his convo with Phasma....That's going to be jus as annoying to me 30 yrs from now
I hope you do. From what I've heard, those who has minor issues with it, the second viewing dusted those issues away. Lack of Expectations perhaps? So I'll cross my fingers you get more enjoyment out of it this time.
Sidebar: I'm also seeing it again Wednseday!
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
I personally thought it was really weird that they couldn't simply take the part of the map they had, look at a galactic map and figure out where it belonged. It made sense that the First Order needed it, but it made very little sense to me that the resistance needed anything more.
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
Apparently it's supposed to be in uncharted space, but I just assumed it was the usual "J.J. doesn't understand how outer space works."
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
I personally thought it was really weird that they couldn't simply take the part of the map they had, look at a galactic map and figure out where it belonged. It made sense that the First Order needed it, but it made very little sense to me that the resistance needed anything more.
You mean BB-8's portion, or R2's? BB-8's portion was not available till he was brought to them (Lor San Tekka had it on Jakku), and R2's was inside him and he was asleep since Luke left. They didn't have any map until the two droids spoke near the end.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
I'm 60% done with the novelization and here are some things that are spelled out more explicitly in the book.
Spoiler
- The Resistance exists outside the normal structure because the Senate and the people of the New Republic (the ones who fought and struggled during the Rebellion against the Empire) have either retired or passed on, leaving the spaces open for Senators and politicians with their own agendas. They don't care at all about the First Order, and to this point the First Order has done nothing to the New Republic in any way. The Resistance keeps asking for help, and sometimes demanding the Senate do something about the First Order....but they don't. Out of sight out of mind, I guess? Sidebar: Leia is largely considered "crazy" by these newer politicians who don't know her. They think she and the Resistance are fanaticals who can't let go of the fight with the Empire.
- There is a whole sequence about how Poe survives after the crash on Jakku and how get gets to safety and on a transport off-world and back to the Resistance base on D'Qar. (Note: I can see why they cut it from the movie in favour of just a line of dialogue to Finn later on how he survived. It's a cool sequence, but inconsequential to the overall narrative flow of the film) The person who saves him makes mention that his speeder is not a podracer...when being chased by scavenger brigands near the crash site.
- The lines of Kylo Ren's dialogue (nothing will stand in our way) that didn't make the final cut of the film, but ARE in the trailers...are present in the book. This line in particular is in the reverent scene with the Vader mask where he speaks about being seduced by the Light.
- Rey's seemingly inherent piloting skills are noted when Rey is talking to Finn after they escape Jakku. She says she's been tinkering with and flying anything she could get her hands on since she was a little kid, which explains her knowledge and skills. I'd assumed this was the case, but it's nice to have it be a line of dialogue.
- Temmin "Snaps" Wexley (Greg Grunberg) has an expanded role in the Resistance base and speaks with Leia about getting the Senate to help with the First Order.
- The destruction of Hosnian Prime and its surrounding system ARE in fact the FIRST firing of Starkiller Base. This is noted by General Hux to Snoke in audience with him after BB-8 escapes with Solo and the kids. He plans to fire it at the New Republic to FORCE the Resistance to strike back and reveal themselves to the FO so they can subsequently be destroyed. This means firing at the Republic was a tactic to deal with the immediate threat of the Resistance, especially upon the idea of them finding Skywalker first, who Snoke says would be a powerful ally for the Resistance.
- Here is another one I'd assumed, but it's nice to have full clarification. Supreme Leader is a title. Snoke is the things name (though probably not his real name). There have been previous "Supreme Leaders" who headed the First Order, Snoke is the most recent. Also, definitively said in the book that Snoke is NOT human. He's humanoid, but is not a human. In case anyone was thinking he was human.
- Here's a cool tidbit. Snoke whispered in Ben Solo's ear since he was a small child. From the shadows, Leia said. She said that she sensed this dark side presence early on (and didn't tell Han...one of the many things that tore them from happy romance) through the Force. She assumed that Luke could deal with it and that the connection to the Light would be strong enough to dismiss this Shadow voice that was Snoke. It's unclear if Snoke was someone they actually KNEW back in the day, or if it is just someone they know ABOUT...but they have known about him in a general way since their son was a child. The turn to the dark side for Ben to Kylo was the result of YEARS of Snoke whispering in Ben's ear.
I'll report back when I have any more.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
Ben is responsible fpr the death of Lukes wife/partner? Something that unforgivable might give further reasoning for the family schism, and why Luke completely turned his back.
So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
Ben is responsible fpr the death of Lukes wife/partner? Something that unforgivable might give further reasoning for the family schism, and why Luke completely turned his back.
Spoiler
They've not noted this anywhere yet...but I FULLY expect this to be a big part of it. I was like "Would Luke turn his back on his promise to Obi-Wan (or go off soul searching) and Yoda if a student went bad and killed off the rest of the students? He might indeed, and I'd be fine with that....but it would have a lot more weight if Luke's partner, also a Jedi (possibly a student?) and mother of his child...was killed by Luke's most promising pupil. Only time will tell, but I think I can see it going that way. And if they plumbed their idea for Kylo Ren being Ben Solo out of the old EU (Jacen Solo became Darth Caedus), then that idea could be plumbed from there as well since Jacen/Caedus killed Luke's wife Mara Jade.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
As one of my friends noted over the weekend, it' a VERY unorginal film. It's practically a copy of Episode 4 through and through. But it works and it's a great way to give old fans what they want, tie the film to the older ones, and set up a series of new films.
I thought the writing was great, it had very little fluff and kept the momentum right up until the end. I don't mind saying there was probably a handful of times during the film where I teared up because of nostalgia and well executed story touches. A giant bearded dude two rows next to me was loudly sobbing during the
Spoiler
Reunion between Leia and Han.
Generally I think this film manages to merge the writing/world building of the old films with the special effects budgets of episode 1-3. It's a fantastic looking film and the CGI really makes the aliens and alien environments come to life.
Regarding the ending:
Spoiler
I feel like the story fails to properly build anything up but as mentioned above, that's pretty much copying Episode 4. The characters are introduced. In the second film I assume they will explain what the political landscape looks like and why The First Order are scary beyond them just aping the Empire.
I would have liked to hear more about the aftermath of the Emperors death and what happened. I felt like the plot was a bit too "This time the Death Star is back and it's taken steroids!" and not enough demonstration of how the First Order should be able to conquer the galaxy. The destruction of what ever that planet system was felt cheap and I didn't feel any shock or surprise when they wiped out the planets.
Also how fucking shit is the defense systems in this universe? Actually how fucking shit is all their technology but what ever it was a long, long time ago.
I think that Kylo Ren was a bit too Hayden Christensen and not enough Darth Maul but maybe we will see that transformation in the next films. I love how they show him using the force in anger. I did feel like it was a bit far fetched that Rey would stand a chance against a person who is trained to handle a light saber. Finn should just have been cut in two immediately, but what ever. It's Disney/Lucas Arts.
Regarding Snoke, is it too much to hope that Snoke is actually a 50 foot tall alien monstrosity? When he was first shown I thought that was his actual physical form and he was towering over the humans. Are there Giant races in the Star Wars universe beyond that big thing Luke fights in that Gladiator arena?
This post has been edited by Apt: 22 December 2015 - 04:00 PM
Ben is responsible fpr the death of Lukes wife/partner? Something that unforgivable might give further reasoning for the family schism, and why Luke completely turned his back.
Spoiler
They've not noted this anywhere yet...but I FULLY expect this to be a big part of it. I was like "Would Luke turn his back on his promise to Obi-Wan (or go off soul searching) and Yoda if a student went bad and killed off the rest of the students? He might indeed, and I'd be fine with that....but it would have a lot more weight if Luke's partner, also a Jedi (possibly a student?) and mother of his child...was killed by Luke's most promising pupil. Only time will tell, but I think I can see it going that way. And if they plumbed their idea for Kylo Ren being Ben Solo out of the old EU (Jacen Solo became Darth Caedus), then that idea could be plumbed from there as well since Jacen/Caedus killed Luke's wife Mara Jade.
It certainly seems likely. I wonder if Rey is involved in this -
Spoiler
if she is Lukes daughter, hidden away to keep her safe, she would be equal to/more powerful potentially then Ren. Then we'd have cousins facing off against each other. Lucas has always said he wanted the family relationships to be central to SW story, and since JJ and Lawrence Kasdan have pretty much already used some of their ideas for the end of RotJ in TFA, it might not be too far off the mark as a possible plot.
This post has been edited by Traveller: 22 December 2015 - 04:11 PM
So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
I would have liked to hear more about the aftermath of the Emperors death and what happened. I felt like the plot was a bit too "This time the Death Star is back and it's taken steroids!" and not enough demonstration of how the First Order should be able to conquer the galaxy. The destruction of what ever that planet system was felt cheap and I didn't feel any shock or surprise when they wiped out the planets.
Spoiler
The First Order didn't conquer the galaxy. They signed a treaty when they were the Imperial Remnant with the New Republic to stay on their side and cause no trouble...and up till now they haven't. They've tangled with the Resistance (who are a splinter group) but that's it. It's also noted in the movie that Hosnian Prime and its system are the seat of the current Republic government. Gen Hux, Ren, and Snoke even discuss why they are going to do it.
Apt, on 22 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:
Spoiler
I think that Kylo Ren was a bit too Hayden Christensen and not enough Darth Maul but maybe we will see that transformation in the next films. I love how they show him using the force in anger. I did feel like it was a bit far fetched that Rey would stand a chance against a person who is trained to handle a light saber. Finn should just have been cut in two immediately, but what ever. It's Disney/Lucas Arts.
Spoiler
We don't know Rey's past yet. We only got a glimpse in her vision, but her inherent force skill is clear in both moments when she turns the tables on Ren. We also don't know if Finn has the force strongly or not. He was taken from his parents at birth....who knows who those parents were. You also have to remember that as a Spec Ops stormtrooper on Phasma's squad, he was trained with those anti-lightsaber melee batons. He knows how to at LEAST combat a lightsaber. Plus remember that Ren was wounded when he fought Finn...plus Ren SEEMED to be toying with him. I think it all adds up to Finn being lucky that all he got was knocked out.
Apt, on 22 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:
Spoiler
Regarding Snoke, is it too much to hope that Snoke is actually a 50 foot tall alien monstrosity? When he was first shown I thought that was his actual physical form and he was towering over the humans. Are there Giant races in the Star Wars universe beyond that big thing Luke fights in that Gladiator arena?
Spoiler
It is too much to hope. It's noted in the novelization, the visual dictionary, and by Serkis and Abrams, and one the star Wars databank official description that he's 7 feet tall and humanoid but not human. So not a giant. Still, it was a cool way to introduce him, threw me off till the holo disappeared.
Traveller, on 22 December 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:
QuickTidal, on 22 December 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:
Traveller, on 22 December 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:
Is there any chance that
Spoiler
Ben is responsible fpr the death of Lukes wife/partner? Something that unforgivable might give further reasoning for the family schism, and why Luke completely turned his back.
Spoiler
They've not noted this anywhere yet...but I FULLY expect this to be a big part of it. I was like "Would Luke turn his back on his promise to Obi-Wan (or go off soul searching) and Yoda if a student went bad and killed off the rest of the students? He might indeed, and I'd be fine with that....but it would have a lot more weight if Luke's partner, also a Jedi (possibly a student?) and mother of his child...was killed by Luke's most promising pupil. Only time will tell, but I think I can see it going that way. And if they plumbed their idea for Kylo Ren being Ben Solo out of the old EU (Jacen Solo became Darth Caedus), then that idea could be plumbed from there as well since Jacen/Caedus killed Luke's wife Mara Jade.
It certainly seems likely. I wonder if Rey is involved in this -
Spoiler
if she is Lukes daughter, hidden away to keep her safe, she would be equal to/more powerful potentially then Ren. Then we'd have cousins facing off against each other. Lucas has always said he wanted the family relationships to be central to SW story, and since JJ and Lawrence Kasdan have pretty much already used some of their ideas for the end of RotJ in TFA, it might not be too far off the mark as a possible plot.
Spoiler
There is a shot in Rey's vision where Kylo actually PROTECTS her from one of his Knights in the rain, and runs him through for his attempt at Rey. It's an odd moment that appears to show that even when he had turned and was slaughtering Luke's other Jedi students, he decided to protect young Rey. That seems to me to be a note that she's family.
This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 22 December 2015 - 04:42 PM
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
I've thought of something else I liked about TFA with regards to lightsabers.
Spoiler
Both Finn and Rey hold the lightsaber like Luke did in ANH to ignite it. Both hands on hilt, holding it up to their side so the blade goes straight up. It's a really OT trope to see that. In the prequels nearly every Jedi or Sith had a fighting style, and would usually ignite their sabers with a flourish (or other things like Obi-Wan's twirl that he does in all three films), a flick of the wrist. It's like the difference between traditional fencing, and less civilized blunt swordplay. This is exacerbated in Kylo's crossguarded claymore-like blade that he HAMMERS people and things with. He's quite removed from the Jedi and Sith of old.
It's a nice nod.
I fully expect to see the styles and flourishes return in later films...but in this one where these people are doing this for the first time, I'm impressed that both Finn and Rey hold and ignite it in the same, unlearned way.
This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 22 December 2015 - 08:37 PM
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
(I've skimmed through the past few pages while writing this, and have amended my post on the fly, but I haven't thoroughly read every previous comment).
Spoiler
How could people all across the galaxy see the Starkiller beam hitting the Republic's system instantaneously? Who thought it was a good idea to have a THIRD Death Star (both in universe — hello, you already tried it twice and failed both times! — and in real life — hello, we've already seen this plot twice!)
Why did R2 randomly power up at that exact moment? Why was there a map leading to Luke in the first place? Why did R2's map have a piece missing? Why couldn't the Resistance have just taken BB-8's map fragment, fed it to their advanced computer systems, and have them compare it to their star charts in order to find a match?
re: Abrams' explanation of why R2 wakes up when he does — what a cop out. I bet he made that up afterwards, because there was not even the hint of an implication that that was why he woke up. Not even a hint. And, if he didn't make it up afterwards and it was part of the plot from the beginning...well, just read the last sentence of this post.
I thought it was a really fun film (Finn was hilarious and Rey was supremely competent [and supremely attractive]), but the script didn't seem that good (Ren/Ben could have had a LOT more depth, but he just seemed petulant. I'm hoping they flesh his story out a lot more in the coming films, otherwise he's just too one dimensional and unsympathetic). Some parts were great, yes, but overall, it felt a little hodge-podged together. There were some issues with timing of events (mainly that much of the movie felt incredibly compressed), and a lot of scenes felt a little too pat, a little too perfect, a little too convenient (e.g. R2 waking up when he did).
I dunno, I really enjoyed it but found it disappointing at the same time. I have a lot more to say, but a lot of my thoughts have been touched upon previously in this thread.
I'm quite surprised that it was so well received and reviewed.
Don't even get me started on the fact that the events of the original trilogy have seemingly become mythical, but they couldn't have happened more than 20 years ago. But if it was that long ago, then how come there's still a Resistance? Why aren't they a part of the full Republic? (I see QT's answers from the novels, but they seem like pretty poorly thought out plot points) So many other questions pop up if you pull that one timeline thread...
From QT: "There have been previous 'Supreme Leaders' who headed the First Order, Snoke is the most recent." <- If it's really Plagueis, then I don't see why he would be just one Supreme Leader in a succession of them, instead of THE FIRST SUPREME LEADER.
And re: Silencer's comments about the EU — look, I've read most of the EU books, but I don't feel a huge attachment to them. So, I'm not comparing this movie to any of those books. However, the Thrawn Trilogy would have made a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better film series. He's just a better villain than any villain in this movie.
I've always wanted to like Abrams' works, but the more of his stuff I see, the more I realize he is just a poor storyteller.
This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 23 December 2015 - 06:16 AM
I personally thought it was really weird that they couldn't simply take the part of the map they had, look at a galactic map and figure out where it belonged. It made sense that the First Order needed it, but it made very little sense to me that the resistance needed anything more.
You mean BB-8's portion, or R2's? BB-8's portion was not available till he was brought to them (Lor San Tekka had it on Jakku), and R2's was inside him and he was asleep since Luke left. They didn't have any map until the two droids spoke near the end.
I mean BB-8's portion. They got it but couldn't use it because they lacked the rest of the map. One would think they could simply have looked at a map of the galaxy and figured it out in a few minutes. It was a sizeable chunk of the whole map after all.
It's a minor nitpick, but I found it contrieved at the time.
This post has been edited by Morgoth: 23 December 2015 - 07:07 AM
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
From QT: "There have been previous 'Supreme Leaders' who headed the First Order, Snoke is the most recent." <- If it's really Plagueis, then I don't see why he would be just one Supreme Leader in a succession of them, instead of THE FIRST SUPREME LEADER.
Maybe Snoke
Spoiler
only took an interest in the First Order once they had became an organised, coherant force with enough potential to become a real threat.
This post has been edited by Traveller: 23 December 2015 - 09:22 AM
So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
I personally thought it was really weird that they couldn't simply take the part of the map they had, look at a galactic map and figure out where it belonged. It made sense that the First Order needed it, but it made very little sense to me that the resistance needed anything more.
You mean BB-8's portion, or R2's? BB-8's portion was not available till he was brought to them (Lor San Tekka had it on Jakku), and R2's was inside him and he was asleep since Luke left. They didn't have any map until the two droids spoke near the end.
I mean BB-8's portion. They got it but couldn't use it because they lacked the rest of the map. One would think they could simply have looked at a map of the galaxy and figured it out in a few minutes. It was a sizeable chunk of the whole map after all.
It's a minor nitpick, but I found it contrieved at the time.
And easily refuted within the Star Wars universe.
"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" ~ Han Solo
But moreover, they only get the BB-8 map just before the battle on Starkiller...which is just before R2 wakes up and gives the rest of the map, so it's really a non-issue.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
Whisperzzzzzzz, on 23 December 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:
(I've skimmed through the past few pages while writing this, and have amended my post on the fly, but I haven't thoroughly read every previous comment).
Spoiler
How could people all across the galaxy see the Starkiller beam hitting the Republic's system instantaneously? Who thought it was a good idea to have a THIRD Death Star (both in universe — hello, you already tried it twice and failed both times! — and in real life — hello, we've already seen this plot twice!)
Yeah, I'll freely admit this works much better in the novelization where it's a ball of light that disappears and reappears in and out of sub-hyperspace, which make more sense, and not a streak across the stars...but I can see why they went for the visual from a filmmaker's standpoint.
And it's not really a death star, it's just a new massive superweapon. You gotta remember that the First Order is what's left of the Imperial remnant. They are smaller than the Republic. Much smaller. You can't make any big military movements against a much larger force. The Rebellion succeeded because it had the backing of multiple star systems and planets within the Empire...the First Order doesn't have that, so they went for the big weapon that could deal the most damage in one blow. It's not at ALL the most original idea, but form their POV it worked. And look at what the one firing of it achieved...the destruction of the Republic Home system. Say what you will, but that worked FAR better than either Death Star ever did (Alderaan destruction included)
Why did R2 randomly power up at that exact moment? Why was there a map leading to Luke in the first place? Why did R2's map have a piece missing? Why couldn't the Resistance have just taken BB-8's map fragment, fed it to their advanced computer systems, and have them compare it to their star charts in order to find a match?
In the book (which would have been based off the original shooting script) R2 activates when BB-8 arrives with the rest of the map and he speaks to R2 (this happened in the movie, it just took him longer to wake). The map isn't leading to Luke. It's an old Imperial map of the location of all the known Jedi Temples (including the first, where Luke was know to have gone) compiled by the Emperor during the the Dark times as they hunted the remaining Jedi. The fact that it will lead them to Luke is a side product of the fact that the map is a hyperspace system map with nodes to Jedi temples. (Kasdan's idea in the script) R2's portion of the map is from ANH when he plugged into the Imperial base and downloaded it (while Luke and Han rescued Leia), but he didn't get all of it. After ROTJ Luke went around to all the Emperor's hidden bases and gathered what he could on the Jedi (the most recent Marvel SW comics showcase this) and as such problably found the remaining map data, which is how it found it's way to Lor San Tekka on Jakku, and eventually BB-8. As to your last comment, BB-8's portion had the First Jedi Temple node listed in it...so until they had that they could not find Luke's location. Comparing it to star charts doens't work if those star charts don't have the Jedi temple locations...which they wouldn't.
re: Abrams' explanation of why R2 wakes up when he does — what a cop out. I bet he made that up afterwards, because there was not even the hint of an implication that that was why he woke up. Not even a hint. And, if he didn't make it up afterwards and it was part of the plot from the beginning...well, just read the last sentence of this post.
Nope, this is in the novelization and that was written by Alan Dean Foster as they wrote the script a long time ago (which is evidenced by the fact that the shooting script and final script differ slightly in places).
Don't even get me started on the fact that the events of the original trilogy have seemingly become mythical, but they couldn't have happened more than 20 years ago. But if it was that long ago, then how come there's still a Resistance? Why aren't they a part of the full Republic? (I see QT's answers from the novels, but they seem like pretty poorly thought out plot points) So many other questions pop up if you pull that one timeline thread...
You're thinking about "mythical" based on you living on earth. You have to expand that. Imagine these events occurred to a group of people in rural Mongolia, then place rural Mongolia on another planet, on another solar system light years away for you. With that kind of distance and how information travels from planet to planet (most likely by word of mouth of travelers, and possibly some Holo's, 30 years DOES make those events more mythical. You're not talking about someone who lives in your city, but on another planet in another part of the galaxy under a different government.
From QT: "There have been previous 'Supreme Leaders' who headed the First Order, Snoke is the most recent." <- If it's really Plagueis, then I don't see why he would be just one Supreme Leader in a succession of them, instead of THE FIRST SUPREME LEADER.
I don't see that as a reason why he needs to be the first. And if rumour holds true and he was at Luke's Academy (Han and Leia know him, and Leia even knows that he was in young Ben's ear as a child) then he came and took over later on.
And re: Silencer's comments about the EU — look, I've read most of the EU books, but I don't feel a huge attachment to them. So, I'm not comparing this movie to any of those books. However, the Thrawn Trilogy would have made a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better film series. He's just a better villain than any villain in this movie.
Oh gods no. Other than Thrawn (who was a great villain) you've got a clone of Ben, a clone of Luke (Luuke), force denying slugs who live in little trees, and other stuff that is just awful.
I've always wanted to like Abrams' works, but the more of his stuff I see, the more I realize he is just a poor storyteller.
Keep in mind that Lawrence Kasdan (who wrote EMPIRE STRIKES BACK) had co-writing duties on this film and pulled JJ back a few times form ideas that wouldn't work (JJ noted this in an interview)
I'll go through this and rebut a bit of it, if I may? In red within the spoiler tag.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
No. This is Kasdan and Abrams letting you figure it out what bits are important as an audience yourself. You get dropped into the story and their job as writer is to give you enough to infer the elements to get the story they are telling. Knowing that R2 got the map from the Imperial archives is an easter egg...NOT a needed bit of info. Should you need to know where R2 acquired the map in the grand scheme of things? No. The fact that they let that bit be ambiguous isn't doing a crappy job explaing the movie, it's having faith that your audience aren't a bunch of morons.
Not really.
It is not about understanding, it is about having enough context for the plot device not to feel lazy and contrived.
In the movie, it feels lazy and contrived. R2 having the rest of the map. The rest of the map being needed at all, R2 being in low power mode until a very convenient part of the story, etc.
Explaining your thought process outside the movie for how it fits in the story in a non lazy contrived way, does not change how it feels in the movie.
Tatts early in SH game: Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish Tatts later in SAME game: I'm going to be a corrupt official. I have turned from my liberal ways, and now will vote against the pesky liberals. Viva la Fascism. When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
Whisperzzzzzzz, on 23 December 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:
(I've skimmed through the past few pages while writing this, and have amended my post on the fly, but I haven't thoroughly read every previous comment).
Spoiler
How could people all across the galaxy see the Starkiller beam hitting the Republic's system instantaneously? Who thought it was a good idea to have a THIRD Death Star (both in universe — hello, you already tried it twice and failed both times! — and in real life — hello, we've already seen this plot twice!)
Yeah, I'll freely admit this works much better in the novelization where it's a ball of light that disappears and reappears in and out of sub-hyperspace, which make more sense, and not a streak across the stars...but I can see why they went for the visual from a filmmaker's standpoint.
And it's not really a death star, it's just a new massive superweapon. You gotta remember that the First Order is what's left of the Imperial remnant. They are smaller than the Republic. Much smaller. You can't make any big military movements against a much larger force. The Rebellion succeeded because it had the backing of multiple star systems and planets within the Empire...the First Order doesn't have that, so they went for the big weapon that could deal the most damage in one blow. It's not at ALL the most original idea, but form their POV it worked. And look at what the one firing of it achieved...the destruction of the Republic Home system. Say what you will, but that worked FAR better than either Death Star ever did (Alderaan destruction included)
Why did R2 randomly power up at that exact moment? Why was there a map leading to Luke in the first place? Why did R2's map have a piece missing? Why couldn't the Resistance have just taken BB-8's map fragment, fed it to their advanced computer systems, and have them compare it to their star charts in order to find a match?
In the book (which would have been based off the original shooting script) R2 activates when BB-8 arrives with the rest of the map and he speaks to R2 (this happened in the movie, it just took him longer to wake). The map isn't leading to Luke. It's an old Imperial map of the location of all the known Jedi Temples (including the first, where Luke was know to have gone) compiled by the Emperor during the the Dark times as they hunted the remaining Jedi. The fact that it will lead them to Luke is a side product of the fact that the map is a hyperspace system map with nodes to Jedi temples. (Kasdan's idea in the script) R2's portion of the map is from ANH when he plugged into the Imperial base and downloaded it (while Luke and Han rescued Leia), but he didn't get all of it. After ROTJ Luke went around to all the Emperor's hidden bases and gathered what he could on the Jedi (the most recent Marvel SW comics showcase this) and as such problably found the remaining map data, which is how it found it's way to Lor San Tekka on Jakku, and eventually BB-8. As to your last comment, BB-8's portion had the First Jedi Temple node listed in it...so until they had that they could not find Luke's location. Comparing it to star charts doens't work if those star charts don't have the Jedi temple locations...which they wouldn't.
re: Abrams' explanation of why R2 wakes up when he does — what a cop out. I bet he made that up afterwards, because there was not even the hint of an implication that that was why he woke up. Not even a hint. And, if he didn't make it up afterwards and it was part of the plot from the beginning...well, just read the last sentence of this post.
Nope, this is in the novelization and that was written by Alan Dean Foster as they wrote the script a long time ago (which is evidenced by the fact that the shooting script and final script differ slightly in places).
Don't even get me started on the fact that the events of the original trilogy have seemingly become mythical, but they couldn't have happened more than 20 years ago. But if it was that long ago, then how come there's still a Resistance? Why aren't they a part of the full Republic? (I see QT's answers from the novels, but they seem like pretty poorly thought out plot points) So many other questions pop up if you pull that one timeline thread...
You're thinking about "mythical" based on you living on earth. You have to expand that. Imagine these events occurred to a group of people in rural Mongolia, then place rural Mongolia on another planet, on another solar system light years away for you. With that kind of distance and how information travels from planet to planet (most likely by word of mouth of travelers, and possibly some Holo's, 30 years DOES make those events more mythical. You're not talking about someone who lives in your city, but on another planet in another part of the galaxy under a different government.
From QT: "There have been previous 'Supreme Leaders' who headed the First Order, Snoke is the most recent." <- If it's really Plagueis, then I don't see why he would be just one Supreme Leader in a succession of them, instead of THE FIRST SUPREME LEADER.
I don't see that as a reason why he needs to be the first. And if rumour holds true and he was at Luke's Academy (Han and Leia know him, and Leia even knows that he was in young Ben's ear as a child) then he came and took over later on.
And re: Silencer's comments about the EU — look, I've read most of the EU books, but I don't feel a huge attachment to them. So, I'm not comparing this movie to any of those books. However, the Thrawn Trilogy would have made a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better film series. He's just a better villain than any villain in this movie.
Oh gods no. Other than Thrawn (who was a great villain) you've got a clone of Ben, a clone of Luke (Luuke), force denying slugs who live in little trees, and other stuff that is just awful.
I've always wanted to like Abrams' works, but the more of his stuff I see, the more I realize he is just a poor storyteller.
Keep in mind that Lawrence Kasdan (who wrote EMPIRE STRIKES BACK) had co-writing duties on this film and pulled JJ back a few times form ideas that wouldn't work (JJ noted this in an interview)
I'll go through this and rebut a bit of it, if I may? In red within the spoiler tag.
Most of those are reasonable responses, showing that there are reasons behind most of the occurences in TFA. However, the fact that most of these things are not explained or hinted at in the film leaves it feeling too rough. I think that's on Abrams, as the director. It's his job to see where viewers can get lost and to guide them. Sure, one can say that these elements are "inessential" to the main plot so it doesn't matter if they're explained, but I don't think that's a good explanation. Without them, scenes in the film just do not make sense.
Also, regardless of whether one wants to put the onus on Kasdan or Abrams, the direction they chose to take the SW universe in, at least as shown in this, the first reboot film, is just...boring. Sure, the Thrawn Trilogy wasn't perfect (not sure what issue you have with the ysalamiri, who are not slugs...but lizards! ), but at least it wasn't a straight rehash of a story previously told in the same universe. And at least it left me wanting more.
This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 23 December 2015 - 02:58 PM
No. This is Kasdan and Abrams letting you figure it out what bits are important as an audience yourself. You get dropped into the story and their job as writer is to give you enough to infer the elements to get the story they are telling. Knowing that R2 got the map from the Imperial archives is an easter egg...NOT a needed bit of info. Should you need to know where R2 acquired the map in the grand scheme of things? No. The fact that they let that bit be ambiguous isn't doing a crappy job explaing the movie, it's having faith that your audience aren't a bunch of morons.
Not really.
It is not about understanding, it is about having enough context for the plot device not to feel lazy and contrived.
In the movie, it feels lazy and contrived. R2 having the rest of the map. The rest of the map being needed at all, R2 being in low power mode until a very convenient part of the story, etc.
Explaining your thought process outside the movie for how it fits in the story in a non lazy contrived way, does not change how it feels in the movie.
As I stated, it's present in the novelization, which was written off the shooting script long ago. So it was and is in there...it's just left a little more open in the final product. It's not a dealbreaker moment though. I'm not sure why it would be.
Whisperzzzzzzz, on 23 December 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:
QuickTidal, on 23 December 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:
Whisperzzzzzzz, on 23 December 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:
(I've skimmed through the past few pages while writing this, and have amended my post on the fly, but I haven't thoroughly read every previous comment).
Spoiler
How could people all across the galaxy see the Starkiller beam hitting the Republic's system instantaneously? Who thought it was a good idea to have a THIRD Death Star (both in universe — hello, you already tried it twice and failed both times! — and in real life — hello, we've already seen this plot twice!)
Yeah, I'll freely admit this works much better in the novelization where it's a ball of light that disappears and reappears in and out of sub-hyperspace, which make more sense, and not a streak across the stars...but I can see why they went for the visual from a filmmaker's standpoint.
And it's not really a death star, it's just a new massive superweapon. You gotta remember that the First Order is what's left of the Imperial remnant. They are smaller than the Republic. Much smaller. You can't make any big military movements against a much larger force. The Rebellion succeeded because it had the backing of multiple star systems and planets within the Empire...the First Order doesn't have that, so they went for the big weapon that could deal the most damage in one blow. It's not at ALL the most original idea, but form their POV it worked. And look at what the one firing of it achieved...the destruction of the Republic Home system. Say what you will, but that worked FAR better than either Death Star ever did (Alderaan destruction included)
Why did R2 randomly power up at that exact moment? Why was there a map leading to Luke in the first place? Why did R2's map have a piece missing? Why couldn't the Resistance have just taken BB-8's map fragment, fed it to their advanced computer systems, and have them compare it to their star charts in order to find a match?
In the book (which would have been based off the original shooting script) R2 activates when BB-8 arrives with the rest of the map and he speaks to R2 (this happened in the movie, it just took him longer to wake). The map isn't leading to Luke. It's an old Imperial map of the location of all the known Jedi Temples (including the first, where Luke was know to have gone) compiled by the Emperor during the the Dark times as they hunted the remaining Jedi. The fact that it will lead them to Luke is a side product of the fact that the map is a hyperspace system map with nodes to Jedi temples. (Kasdan's idea in the script) R2's portion of the map is from ANH when he plugged into the Imperial base and downloaded it (while Luke and Han rescued Leia), but he didn't get all of it. After ROTJ Luke went around to all the Emperor's hidden bases and gathered what he could on the Jedi (the most recent Marvel SW comics showcase this) and as such problably found the remaining map data, which is how it found it's way to Lor San Tekka on Jakku, and eventually BB-8. As to your last comment, BB-8's portion had the First Jedi Temple node listed in it...so until they had that they could not find Luke's location. Comparing it to star charts doens't work if those star charts don't have the Jedi temple locations...which they wouldn't.
re: Abrams' explanation of why R2 wakes up when he does — what a cop out. I bet he made that up afterwards, because there was not even the hint of an implication that that was why he woke up. Not even a hint. And, if he didn't make it up afterwards and it was part of the plot from the beginning...well, just read the last sentence of this post.
Nope, this is in the novelization and that was written by Alan Dean Foster as they wrote the script a long time ago (which is evidenced by the fact that the shooting script and final script differ slightly in places).
Don't even get me started on the fact that the events of the original trilogy have seemingly become mythical, but they couldn't have happened more than 20 years ago. But if it was that long ago, then how come there's still a Resistance? Why aren't they a part of the full Republic? (I see QT's answers from the novels, but they seem like pretty poorly thought out plot points) So many other questions pop up if you pull that one timeline thread...
You're thinking about "mythical" based on you living on earth. You have to expand that. Imagine these events occurred to a group of people in rural Mongolia, then place rural Mongolia on another planet, on another solar system light years away for you. With that kind of distance and how information travels from planet to planet (most likely by word of mouth of travelers, and possibly some Holo's, 30 years DOES make those events more mythical. You're not talking about someone who lives in your city, but on another planet in another part of the galaxy under a different government.
From QT: "There have been previous 'Supreme Leaders' who headed the First Order, Snoke is the most recent." <- If it's really Plagueis, then I don't see why he would be just one Supreme Leader in a succession of them, instead of THE FIRST SUPREME LEADER.
I don't see that as a reason why he needs to be the first. And if rumour holds true and he was at Luke's Academy (Han and Leia know him, and Leia even knows that he was in young Ben's ear as a child) then he came and took over later on.
And re: Silencer's comments about the EU — look, I've read most of the EU books, but I don't feel a huge attachment to them. So, I'm not comparing this movie to any of those books. However, the Thrawn Trilogy would have made a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better film series. He's just a better villain than any villain in this movie.
Oh gods no. Other than Thrawn (who was a great villain) you've got a clone of Ben, a clone of Luke (Luuke), force denying slugs who live in little trees, and other stuff that is just awful.
I've always wanted to like Abrams' works, but the more of his stuff I see, the more I realize he is just a poor storyteller.
Keep in mind that Lawrence Kasdan (who wrote EMPIRE STRIKES BACK) had co-writing duties on this film and pulled JJ back a few times form ideas that wouldn't work (JJ noted this in an interview)
I'll go through this and rebut a bit of it, if I may? In red within the spoiler tag.
Most of those are reasonable responses, showing that there are reasons behind most of the occurences in TFA. However, the fact that most of these things are not explained or hinted at in the film leaves it feeling too rough. I think that's on Abrams, as the director. It's his job to see where viewers can get lost and to guide them. Sure, one can say that these elements are "inessential" to the main plot so it doesn't matter if they're explained, but I don't think that's a good explanation. Without them, scenes in the film just do not make sense.
Also, regardless of whether one wants to put the onus on Kasdan or Abrams, the direction they chose to take the SW universe in, at least as shown in this, the first reboot film, is just...boring. Sure, the Thrawn Trilogy wasn't perfect (not sure what issue you have with the ysalamiri, who are not slugs...but lizards! ), but at least it wasn't a straight rehash of a story previously told in the same universe. And at least it left me wanting more.
The responses I made, a lot of that is in the movie in one way or another. I noted upthread how even I missed a LOT of exposition on a first viewing.
I actually think that the Thrawn trilogy IS a reshash of the OT, just with a more competent, less sentimental villain (Vader) in Thrawn himself. A military genius kind of a combo of the fear from Vader and the tactics of Tarkin in one guy). The rest of the plot really does read like the OT re-tread. You've got Jorrus C'Baoth in place of the emperor (disguised at first as a wayward Jedi like Ben), you've still got the Rebellion(New Republic) fighting battles against the Imperial remnant under a new leader (ie. nothing has really changed) who is trying to get Luke and Leia so he can turn them (like the Emperor and Vader wanted with Luke), you've got Mara Jade who is a Leia character just flipped so she is bad to begin with. She's still a rescue and a functional female soldier by the end. You've got functional fleet of ships from BEFORE the clone wars (in a universe where the Falcon is considered an old piece of junk) that the Imperials employ to great effect as a new navy (which is just this side of ridiculous). It's all a re-tread too.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
QuickTidal 
Briar King, on 22 December 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:
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