[Silencer]

See...the more I think about that saber design, the less sense it makes in practical combat. Normal sabers are hard to use, and dangerous to the user. Even with the Force, it takes lots of training to get good, right? Never mind people who aren't Force users trying to use them. So to add something that so obviously either limits your range of movements or seriously endangers yourself if you aren't paying attention makes no sense, even for a total badass of a Sith (unless he uses it a bit like Dooku, as more of a rapier/duelling style...but even then...), let alone something with such an obvious weak point as the emitters.
Then I thought, "well, clearly the emitters are made of cortosis weave, vibroblade style" but if you think about that...why make the emitters out of cortosis when you could just have a cortosis crossguard and not run the added risk of self-made hand surgery? Never mind the fact that cortosis could possibly stop the saber from working at all (depending on which sources you take as accurate).

So yeah. Just makes very little sense. I'm hoping its ceremonial/those emitters are designed as a distraction or something. XD

[McLovin]

QuickTidal, on 29 November 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

McLovin, on 29 November 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Finally saw it in a theater. Even though I watched it a dozen times on iTunes, it still gave me goosebumps.

Oh man, the X-Wings and the falcon must have looked GLORIOUS in the theatre! Tell me they did. Let me live vicariously.

Was there cheering?

The Falcon barrel-roll shot is AWESOME on the big screen. It all looked great though.

No cheering. A.m. showing of a kid's movie, the day after release. i imagine they were blowing the roof off yesterday.

[McLovin]

Silencer, on 30 November 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

See...the more I think about that saber design, the less sense it makes in practical combat.

Yeah I'm giving them benefit of the doubt and saying it's a force-field crossguard with flashy fx.

[Andorion]

Quote

I'm hoping its ceremonial/those emitters are designed as a distraction or something. XD

Well a Sith cutting his own hand of with his Saber crossguard definitely qualifies as a distraction:

"Prepare to face the wrath of the Dark Side! (draws saber and flourishes) Aaaaargh!!! Aaargh!! My hand!!"

[Silencer]

Eh, I have no issue with the more ragged blade. I doubt it will be noticeably annoying in a film any more than in video games. As long as it is *functionally* different to justify why - if it's just aesthetic I might be disappointed (unless it's ceremonial/archaic, then I'm fine with it).

[Silencer]

Briar King, on 30 November 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

I wonder if maybe they ll say something about it? Like maybe it is indeed an ancient Sith blade and the crystal is old and unstable but that's the mostly the EU in me talking.

I reckon they will provide some justification along EU lines, though. Even though they've made the status of the EU clear as non-canon, that doesn't mean they can't or won't use parts from it to help build the world, even as they start to create a new EU by it. Pretty sure it will be an explanation just like that - old blade/unstable crystal (could be due to the rarity of crystals post-Republic, or conversely the tech available when the blade was made, if it is ancient, or deliberate choice as Sith are wont to prefer them).

[Brujah]

With two metal swords in battle, different styled cross-guards offered a huge new array of defenses involving the maneuvering of the opponents blade once it came down the blade to hit the guard. Just from this simple offense-defense position of one sword held in a defensive posture, the offensive sword having came to rest along the bottom of the blade(at the cross-guard). Various twists can be used to increase ones repertoire of maneuvers.

In previous films, most light-sabre duels were with weapons made with a simple metal cylinder for the hilt, and a single, straight beam of light protruding. These light-sabres would have far useless value in a good sword fight without a method for stop blocking the light-sabre at the hilt. However, you do see this in a few epic duels, where two swordsmen seem to have their light-sabres locked and are both pushing as if its now a game of pure strength.In reality, nothing should have allowed those types of in close maneuvers where locking swords is essential skill. It never really mattered to me, but perhaps someone figured this out finally, and wanted to focus on swordsmanship on a whole new level in this film, which I vigorously applaud.

Those cross guards seen in the teaser would be the first step in creating a functioning guard, allowing for the wielder of this weapon to perform expert level sword blocks that flow into attacks.

tl;dr

I disagree with the negativity over the new light-sabre. Simple cross-guards could be quite functional and successful. As for the added danger that's been implied that such cross-guards would incur, it's just not relevant. A well trained swordsman would be able to maintain a key grip on the hilt, which is probably crafted in a specific way as to allow the wielder to never find himself holding his weapon in any position that would endanger himself.

One also leaves out a multitude of other ingenuities that could be utilized to protect even, our wielder from the cross-guards. Specialized greaves. Polarity shields around the wrists or that emanate from the hilt itself even. The cross-guards could easily recognize it's own position with that of its wielder's body thus shutting off and on as needed in milliseconds.

Still tl;dr

It's Star Wars. No matter WHAT, even if Paris Hilton plays the Sith Lord...errr..Lady, and the side of the Jedi are played by a semblance of Dustin Hoffmans Captain Hook from the movie Hook I'll still be there to see it. I'll enjoy whatever they put forth, because it's still Star Wars, even if it could have been better.

I can't wait.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 30 November 2014 - 10:15 AM

[Silencer]

Yeah, except the first thing getting cut off if it isn't the user's wrist would be the emitters! (Remember that the blade is weightless, too: that is why they have to rely on the Force to wield these things, adding another layer to that is just asking for trouble, when most styles are about twirling the blade for defence.)

Polarity shields, you say? Great! Why not *just* use them for the protection gained by the hilt without the risk/reduced options for blade position?

Auto turning off is great...until they auto turn off because another lightsaber is pushing it towards your wrist, thus letting the blade through anyway.



Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the practicality of a hilt (and we've all seen what an unorthodox fighting style can do to even well-trained Jedi; enter Count Dooku) but I seriously think the design in this sense is more "Awesome but Impractical" than anything else. It gives extremely small benefits for increased risks and obvious design flaws.

If the blade was self-splitting, it'd be better. But those emitters are an obvious weak point. It's like having a bladed metal hilt attached by cardboard to the tang.

But seriously, it's great for intimidation, I guess, which is very Sith, but I'm just not buying it's practical advantages, given the drawbacks I can see. But hey, like I said, they might do more than just what it appears in a two-second teaser. And it still might be ceremonial/ritualistic in nature. Or just archaic. And it might throw a spanner in the works against someone less skilled or traditionally trained. But so far, to me, it looks a bit silly, awkward, and flawed, design-wise. XD

Not like it's going to make or break the film for me. Though a more practical saber might have made it.

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 30 November 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

See...the more I think about that saber design, the less sense it makes in practical combat. Normal sabers are hard to use, and dangerous to the user. Even with the Force, it takes lots of training to get good, right? Never mind people who aren't Force users trying to use them. So to add something that so obviously either limits your range of movements or seriously endangers yourself if you aren't paying attention makes no sense, even for a total badass of a Sith (unless he uses it a bit like Dooku, as more of a rapier/duelling style...but even then...), let alone something with such an obvious weak point as the emitters.
Then I thought, "well, clearly the emitters are made of cortosis weave, vibroblade style" but if you think about that...why make the emitters out of cortosis when you could just have a cortosis crossguard and not run the added risk of self-made hand surgery? Never mind the fact that cortosis could possibly stop the saber from working at all (depending on which sources you take as accurate).

So yeah. Just makes very little sense. I'm hoping its ceremonial/those emitters are designed as a distraction or something. XD

Okay, Lightsabers....as a whole...as weaponry....are impractical as shit and super dangerous. Like the fact that more people haven't sliced limbs off is astounding.

But then enter this...only force users wield them. Becuase they can without being killed/maimed.

As to that, what if this is an old Sith weapon and one intended to show a discipline level unheasrd of before. Here is your saber apprentice. But what if I cut my own hand off? Then you don't deserve to wield it. Like if you slowed down a duel you would see the sith twisting his/her wrist and turning it so the vent blades miss it...if you get my meaning.

Also, side emitters could also be exhaust...like the power coming out of the crystal is so insane that without those exhaust vents, the thing would explode in the users hand.

But above and beyond all else. This is science fantasy. Is it impractical in our world? Yeah...but so are most lightsabers, not the least pf which would be Maul's and The Inquisitors...let alone Grievous. In Star Wars, cool looking weapons is the game.

I'm not only fine with that, after multiple rewatches of the teaser, I LOVE the new weapon. It looks badass, and the violence with which it's pullled out and switched on conveys a menace that makes me fear the villain already.

EDIT: Also Silencer, you seem to be indicating that the blade of the other saber would slide down and cut off the emitters...have you seen a lightsaber slide down an opponents before in Star Wars? As far as I know they clash and stick. I think the only thing that even gets close to that is Anakin cutting off Dooku's hands, but I've watvhed the clip and it doesn't really slide.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 30 November 2014 - 02:06 PM

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 30 November 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

I wonder if maybe they ll say something about it? Like maybe it is indeed an ancient Sith blade and the crystal is old and unstable but that's the mostly the EU in me talking.

The major rumour is that the Sith in this movie is hunting down old Sith artifacts...which would explain this. It might also mean that the snow woods is indeed on Morriban.

[QuickTidal]

All of what Brujah said. I agree.

[Brujah]

It looks sort of like an old style iron cross sword.


I disagree with you still assuming either a wrist or an emitter would be cut off in the scenario. The emitter would be protected by the 'blade' and/or cross-guards in the same way the wrists would. I.described the physics above in their most simplest form. Light-sabres don't pass through each other at the blade, and I summarily assume no sabres blade would pass through, nor cut off the cross-guards. They would effectively protect the wrist and.forearm area to some.small.degree.

Of course nothing is to stop.a better swordsman from finding a way to get his own sabre's blade under or around said cross-guards(this is called beating their defenses). Then again, if the cross-guard wielding swordsman is fighting a a much better swordsman the point becomes mute, because cross-guards or not, at some point the greater skill level of an opponent will negate the benefits gained from the cross-guards.

I believe we're asserting far too much importance and possible power benefit to this new cross styled light-sabre. It possibly, and probably only adds a small benefit, including a different style of fighting - which for me is approaching possible super cool level.

Light-sabres have always literally been what Star Wars was to me as a kid, and I still always loved that aspect of each film best.

Starting with Luke Skywalker trying to block laser blasts from the floating round robotics aboard The M-falcon, to the utter amazement in Empire when Luke makes it to the Dagobah System to train with Yoda, then the mind blowing battle between an undertrained Luke against Vader after they froze Han in carbonite, forward to Return where we witness an epic light-sabre scene between Luke and Vader once more for the last time.

I viewed the series in some way by both the progression of the use of the light-sabre, and the skills involved. It took a while for us to get films for books I, II, and , III and they failed in a great many ways in what I'd liked to have seen, but we do get Darth Maul's staff like light-sabre, which contrary to many opinions, I thought was awesome. Qui Gon Jinn and a young Obi Wan and their sabre scenes with Maul.

Film Book II even gave me an oh shit moment when we finally get to see Yoda sabre fight. Plus the film had some other amazing light-sabre scenes.

But Film Book III , again contrary to many opinions, was great for me. This film had the most light-sabre use many times over, and I enjoyed it immensely.


So in summary, I find it comforting and refreshing to see this new sabre, and will probably love everything about it, no matter what. My views on the scene for the teaser are probably swayed as well because of my childish fascination with this aspect of the series, even still today at my age.


If the movie.does somehow not meet expectations, and/or the light-sabre from the teaser isn't all that awesome to all of you, I'll warn everyone now, I'll probably still be in here talking about how badass it was.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 30 November 2014 - 02:27 PM

[Mezla PigDog]

I'm wondering if the depths of detail in this lightsaber conversation makes this the most nerdy discussion ever to take place in this here esteemed forum. And considering what this forum is dedicated to that is no mean feat!

[McLovin]

HoosierDaddy, on 29 November 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

All I want is some X-Wings/A-Wings/B-Wings/Y-Wings/E-Wings/K-Wings/V-Wings blowing shit up. I know I won't get the last three, though. RIP EU.

Actually, V-wings have been ported over into the new EU. See TARKIN.

[Cause]

Star Wars: Episode VII Trailer - George Lucas' Special Edition: http://youtu.be/v93Jh6JNBng

This post has been edited by Cause: 30 November 2014 - 09:43 PM

[Grief]

I actually quite liked the raggedness of the lightsaber blade. It reminds me more of the blades from the original trilogy, the ones in the new trilogy at times seemed too well-defined and well-rounded, I like a less tame saber.

Yes, the old sabers aren't the most practical thing ever, but bear in mind that we do see Obi-Wan happy to let Luke train with one (blind) with very little sense of the force. People saying that it's a fine design because the Force miss a couple of things, imo. Firstly is that a weapon that can only be used after being capable with the Force is a bit impractical in itself, compared to the original saber (though this can be justified as it being an advanced saber etc). Secondly, even if the user is capable with the force, having to use the Force/devote attention to not hitting himself is still impractical -- a greater possibility of hitting yourself is a hindrance even when you are practiced and used to adjusting for it. Thirdly, does it have a benefit? If there is a practical benefit to the crossguard, it might outweigh the potential downsides of it. In terms of swords, the obvious answer is that there is a benefit to crossguards. But with lightsabers, it's less obvious. As others have pointed out, I'm not sure we've ever seen a situation where the lack of a crossguard has been capitalised on in the manner you would expect with a sword. Of course, in the new film, I'm sure we'll see the crossguard saving him at least once. Basically, it comes down to how they justify it. If it goes without justification, I'm going to think it's silly, because I do think there are drawbacks to the design which the film ought to address.

Also, in terms of innovation, it's a bit lackluster in itself. Lightsabers are basically laser swords...swords have crossguards...Genius! A new fighting style would be cool with or without a new lightsaber (unless it's one that requires/necessitates it, in which case the style will sell it).

As Silencer said, it's early days, and it's going to be a case of how the film handles it. I'm just not particularly taken with it as an idea, but maybe it'll be great in the film.

Speaking of speculative trailer gripes, the hunched stance of the bad guy seems like a bit of a lazy visual cue. I get that it's Star Wars and subtlety with the villains isn't exactly a selling point, but by this stage it'd be really cool to have a main villain that wasn't in the vein of "embodiment of evil (look, you can tell by his clothes/walk etc)" for a change...Not that I'll be especially bothered if we didn't get one (like I say, it's not an expectation based on past films), but I'd be really happy if we did.

[Illuyankas]

You might be better off finding a series with a naming scheme that isn't Darth Badthing then.

[Silencer]

QuickTidal, on 30 November 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Okay, Lightsabers....as a whole...as weaponry....are impractical as shit and super dangerous. Like the fact that more people haven't sliced limbs off is astounding.

*snip*

But above and beyond all else. This is science fantasy. Is it impractical in our world? Yeah...but so are most lightsabers, not the least pf which would be Maul's and The Inquisitors...let alone Grievous. In Star Wars, cool looking weapons is the game.

Whoah whoa whoah there. Are you seriously pulling the "it's fiction therefore anything goes with no explanation or internal continuity/logic" argument here, QT?

Like I said upthread, I'm ALL for cool designs (seriously, the Inquisitor's saber makes more sense...until it starts spinning) and such. All I expect is for it to be not-obviously-seriously-flawed even WITHIN the universe's design rules. Do X-Wings have much logical value in their attack mode in our world? No. But they work in Star Wars. Lightsabers work because of the Force, we've established that. What we have NOT established is any usefulness for hilts with exposed emitters. (Sorry, Brujah, but we've seen damage to saber emitters taking the saber out before, plenty of times - those things are not "protected by the blade" - they are required to project the blade, so if the top gets cut off that thing is broken.)

I'd be all for it if those emitters weren't so stupid. Or just plain didn't exist on a part where they can easily be removed in the course of combat, rendering their addition redundant in the first place.

Again; they make almost no sense from a practical standpoint. Unlike the staff saber, which has obvious pros and cons (much like dual-wielding), this just...doesn't have the pros. People aren't going around fighting in a style that makes the cross-guards useful, so why add them?

Quote

EDIT: Also Silencer, you seem to be indicating that the blade of the other saber would slide down and cut off the emitters...have you seen a lightsaber slide down an opponents before in Star Wars? As far as I know they clash and stick. I think the only thing that even gets close to that is Anakin cutting off Dooku's hands, but I've watvhed the clip and it doesn't really slide.

Soo...assuming you're right, the emitters are totally useless? Good argument.

I'm pretty sure there are instances where it happens, it's just not common. However, that doesn't really undermine my point - he's essentially protecting against something that almost never happens. So what's the point?



Anyway, we'll have to wait to see more to make a real decision, but on first glance, it looks impractical as hell. Cool? Sorta. Not great (heck, see the miles of internet comments deriding it for a healthy reaction-check) but not terrible either. Just a bit more on the silly side.

But I could totally see it going awesome - imagine turning off the main blade and just using the side blades like a short axe? That's cool. Or using it as a surprise move - you're in bladelock, but suddenly you turn off the main blade, and move around your opponent, catching their swing on one of the side emitters to stop them from actually hitting you, then either reigniting your blade and killing them, or just hitting them in the face with the other side of the hilt.

It's entirely possible, but it just doesn't have much else going for it. I'd love to see a REALLY pragmatic Sith use it as a brutal trick-saber. (Though said villain would almost inevitably be victorious in every encounter ever, and they'd have to ass-pull a way to beat them, but hey...)

[Silencer]

Briar King, on 01 December 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

Was Korriban(I will not fucking call it Morriban....) retconed to have snowy forest or something? Korriban is Mars like or I'm sure now WAS like that.

Yeah, it's pretty much a rock. Semi-volcanic/Grand Canyon-esque, mostly. (And it's "Moraband", just FYI, not Morriban.)

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 01 December 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

Soo...assuming you're right, the emitters are totally useless? Good argument.

I'm pretty sure there are instances where it happens, it's just not common. However, that doesn't really undermine my point - he's essentially protecting against something that almost never happens. So what's the point?

I seem to recall mentioning that I thought they might be exhaust valves for an overloaded crystal inside (explaining the ragged edge of the blade)...and not emitters at all upthread.