[QuickTidal]

And can we talk about how Paige Tico was the heroic sister, and Rose Tico was the super shitty sister?


Paige Sacrifices herself to take out the big First Order Dreadnought. She is a hero.

Rose, on the other hand, stops Finn from saving the Resistance on Crait (when he's about to take out the doorbuster canon thing in a suicide run) because she "loves him" or some shit (even though he's never shown her ANY interest at all, and she kisses him with no consent...but never mind eh?). Rose is a shitty Resistance fighter (especially considering her earlier diatribe at Finn for wanting to leave, calling him a deserter), and an even shittier human for basically resigning the entire Resistance to the fate they end up at...because she didn't want to let Finn make a heroic sacrifice to save them.

[rant]

QuickTidal, on 20 December 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

Something else about Rian's turn in these movies...and somewhat a result of JJ's tune as well...

The OT was spent on politics. The idea that the Empire was bad, and though organized was run by tyrants. The Rebellion (whose full name we need to remember was "The Alliance To Restore The Republic") has a goal of restoring the galaxy to the Republic it once was. ROTJ sees them on their way to doing just that.

But offscreen, in the interim, Disney has entirely dismantled that goal. In an effort to reset the table to give a new generation of people a brand new Star Wars tale, they've set things back to status quo....AKK an evil empire is at war with a plucky, ragtag Rebellion...all over again. Largely because they seemed scared to explore what the old EU explored, that of "What a galactic Republic of systems after Imperial dominance looks like, how it functions, where new Jedi Order fits into it, who runs it, what safeties are put in place to prevent Emperor 2.0, ect." I mean, the meat of a movie focused on Luke training Jedi, and the Republic government not on boar because of what happened with the old Republic Jedi Order would make WONDERFUL fodder for a new film....as would exploring an Imperial remnant that is not bent on conquering the galaxy, like the First Order...but on the idea that without Vader and the Emperor the Empire was a functioning government that could be a benevolent one if run correctly. I mean if they wanted "different" then exploring such things through the Star Wars lens is ideal.

So the Disney goal is what? CONSTANT table resetting to square one and constant war that mimics the OT sides? There's no middle ground here. I don't see how you end IX other than one of two ways: Kylo is killed, First Order disbanded (resetting the stage of ROTJ ending), or Kylo Ren is redeemed, First Order disbanded (resetting the stage of ROTJ ending). With what occurred in TLJ, I'm not sure I see any other way out...and then no matter what they changed, the ST WILL just be a rehash of the OT. And I find that so terribly sad.

So there it is plain. The Star Wars series, as far as Disney is concerned is not interested in telling the story of what the OT (and to an extent the Prequels) sought to tell that of a Republic of Systems seeking peace...because to them (and perhaps just Rian, who knows) the better point to drive him is....even the Republic is a bad idea, so let's not have anything. That will certainly stop the constant wars!

Ugh.

I agree with this 99.99% I just wouldn't lay it Rian Johnson's feet, that seems like a stretch. JJ, KK, (happy acronym sync up!) and Disney are the ones who reset everything with TFA.....Johnson couldn't just re-reset the entire board with TLJ.....

One thing I mentioned to my friend who saw the film with me (and never delved into the EU novels), was that one of the things I liked most about the entirety of the novels is that the war between Alliance/Republic and Empire/Remnant lasted for like 20 years.....and actually ended in a truce, and eventual amalgamation into GA rather than full-out Republic victory. That seemed more realistic to me.....hell, America has been battling Taliban in Afghanistan for almost 30 years now. Imagine expanding that conflict to include the resources of multiple planets and actors, relatively equivalent tech and capacity, and magic......that war could probably be waged indefinitely.

When I walked out of TFA (more so) and TLJ....I mourned that lost history a great deal lol. As more films come out, and their story becomes more and more entrenched as canon....the loss of the old canon is painful. A lot of the EU novels were trash imo (trash I collected, read obsessively and still own...but trash all the same), but collectively I think they told an impressive meta-story.

Plus it really sucks we aren't gonna get a Jaina or Pellaeon. Still holding out hope for a extra-galactic invasion though.

This post has been edited by rant: 20 December 2017 - 06:32 PM

[rant]

QuickTidal, on 20 December 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

And can we talk about how Paige Tico was the heroic sister, and Rose Tico was the super shitty sister?


Paige Sacrifices herself to take out the big First Order Dreadnought. She is a hero.

Rose, on the other hand, stops Finn from saving the Resistance on Crait (when he's about to take out the doorbuster canon thing in a suicide run) because she "loves him" or some shit (even though he's never shown her ANY interest at all, and she kisses him with no consent...but never mind eh?). Rose is a shitty Resistance fighter (especially considering her earlier diatribe at Finn for wanting to leave, calling him a deserter), and an even shittier human for basically resigning the entire Resistance to the fate they end up at...because she didn't want to let Finn make a heroic sacrifice to save them.

Yea that was one of the beats that bothered me as well.

It's kind of funny, I feel like over this conversation you've gotten more and more frustrated with Rian , and I've gotten more and more frustrated with JJ lol.

[Abyss]

It didn't really look like Finn was going to make it tho'. Seemed more like she kept him from making an entirely pointless sacrifice.

[QuickTidal]

rant, on 20 December 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 20 December 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

Something else about Rian's turn in these movies...and somewhat a result of JJ's tune as well...

The OT was spent on politics. The idea that the Empire was bad, and though organized was run by tyrants. The Rebellion (whose full name we need to remember was "The Alliance To Restore The Republic") has a goal of restoring the galaxy to the Republic it once was. ROTJ sees them on their way to doing just that.

But offscreen, in the interim, Disney has entirely dismantled that goal. In an effort to reset the table to give a new generation of people a brand new Star Wars tale, they've set things back to status quo....AKK an evil empire is at war with a plucky, ragtag Rebellion...all over again. Largely because they seemed scared to explore what the old EU explored, that of "What a galactic Republic of systems after Imperial dominance looks like, how it functions, where new Jedi Order fits into it, who runs it, what safeties are put in place to prevent Emperor 2.0, ect." I mean, the meat of a movie focused on Luke training Jedi, and the Republic government not on boar because of what happened with the old Republic Jedi Order would make WONDERFUL fodder for a new film....as would exploring an Imperial remnant that is not bent on conquering the galaxy, like the First Order...but on the idea that without Vader and the Emperor the Empire was a functioning government that could be a benevolent one if run correctly. I mean if they wanted "different" then exploring such things through the Star Wars lens is ideal.

So the Disney goal is what? CONSTANT table resetting to square one and constant war that mimics the OT sides? There's no middle ground here. I don't see how you end IX other than one of two ways: Kylo is killed, First Order disbanded (resetting the stage of ROTJ ending), or Kylo Ren is redeemed, First Order disbanded (resetting the stage of ROTJ ending). With what occurred in TLJ, I'm not sure I see any other way out...and then no matter what they changed, the ST WILL just be a rehash of the OT. And I find that so terribly sad.

So there it is plain. The Star Wars series, as far as Disney is concerned is not interested in telling the story of what the OT (and to an extent the Prequels) sought to tell that of a Republic of Systems seeking peace...because to them (and perhaps just Rian, who knows) the better point to drive him is....even the Republic is a bad idea, so let's not have anything. That will certainly stop the constant wars!

Ugh.

I agree with this 99.99% I just wouldn't lay it Rian Johnson's feet, that seems like a stretch. JJ, KK, (happy acronym sync up!) and Disney are the ones who reset everything with TFA.....Johnson couldn't just re-reset the entire board with TLJ.....

One thing I mentioned to my friend who saw the film with me (and never delved into the EU novels), was that one of the things I liked most about the entirety of the novels is that the war between Alliance/Republic and Empire/Remnant lasted for like 20 years.....and actually ended in a truce, and eventual amalgamation into GA rather than full-out Republic victory. That seemed more realistic to me.....hell, America has been battling Taliban in Afghanistan for almost 30 years now. Imagine expanding that conflict to include the resources of multiple planets and actors, relatively equivalent tech and capacity, and magic......that war could probably be waged indefinitely.

When I walked out of TFA (more so) and TLJ....I mourned that lost history a great deal lol. As more films come out, and their story becomes more and more entrenched as canon....the loss of the old canon is painful. A lot of the EU novels were trash imo (trash I collected, read obsessively and still own...but trash all the same), but collectively I think they told an impressive meta-story.

Plus it really sucks we aren't gonna get a Jaina or Pellaeon. Still holding out hope for a extra-galactic invasion though.

A lot of the EU was chaff...but there were bright shining beacons of excellence in there too. That said, I wholly agree that the basic structure of it is SO much better than what Disney has given us.

And not getting Jaina is the biggest pill I have to swallow. She was always my fave character.

Can I also be annoyed that we don't get the Hapes Consortium and badass Jedi Tenel Ka who made her lightsaber hilt form a rancour tooth?!

rant, on 20 December 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 20 December 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

And can we talk about how Paige Tico was the heroic sister, and Rose Tico was the super shitty sister?


Paige Sacrifices herself to take out the big First Order Dreadnought. She is a hero.

Rose, on the other hand, stops Finn from saving the Resistance on Crait (when he's about to take out the doorbuster canon thing in a suicide run) because she "loves him" or some shit (even though he's never shown her ANY interest at all, and she kisses him with no consent...but never mind eh?). Rose is a shitty Resistance fighter (especially considering her earlier diatribe at Finn for wanting to leave, calling him a deserter), and an even shittier human for basically resigning the entire Resistance to the fate they end up at...because she didn't want to let Finn make a heroic sacrifice to save them.

Yea that was one of the beats that bothered me as well.

It's kind of funny, I feel like over this conversation you've gotten more and more frustrated with Rian , and I've gotten more and more frustrated with JJ lol.

You know, you're right...a lot of my ire should be rightly aimed at JJ and KK for this. They started it down this path.

Abyss, on 20 December 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

It didn't really look like Finn was going to make it tho'. Seemed more like she kept him from making an entirely pointless sacrifice.

Eh, that's debatable. To me it looked like he would have made it at the last second. But we will never know because Rose was written to save him for love!

Ugh.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 20 December 2017 - 07:01 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

The Tico sisters' medallions were just that: medallions that they wore as sisters. Thus Rose cherished hers because it reminded her of her sister and her sacrifice.

I agree that Finn's potential sacrifice was likely going to be wasted; everyone was telling him to get out of there because he was going to be killed. But it doesn't matter whether he would have succeeded or not: Rose's point was that they needed to stop sacrificing themselves, period.

[QuickTidal]

Salt-Man Z, on 20 December 2017 - 07:16 PM, said:

The Tico sisters' medallions were just that: medallions that they wore as sisters. Thus Rose cherished hers because it reminded her of her sister and her sacrifice.

I agree that Finn's potential sacrifice was likely going to be wasted; everyone was telling him to get out of there because he was going to be killed. But it doesn't matter whether he would have succeeded or not: Rose's point was that they needed to stop sacrificing themselves, period.

And I mean I get that...but I think it's the second last in a long line of narrative mistakes (that serve Rian's plot points and nothing else) that begin and end with all the resistance people failing, constantly.

From a narrative and filmic story standpoint, as the scene played out, Finn could easily have succeeded if he was not stopped by Rose. Just because everyone was telling him that he was going to die and fail, doesn't mean he was...ESPECIALLY in a film where the opening sequence had the exact same thing play out but with success (ish) where Poe is told not to try doing what he does against the Dreadnaught because it's a suicide run, that it's not going to work and he will fail. Yet he succeeds nonetheless. But he tells another character that HIS hail Mary run at the bad guys won't work... and all off the sudden what was true in the opening is not true in the closing?

Remember, Jyn Erso intoned "Rebellions are BUILT on hope."

Rose was like "Fuck hope, let's stop dying in sacrifices because reasons!"

Briar King, on 20 December 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

I forget Tenel Ka’s hilt was some kind of bone. Not sure what.

For BK

 TKD.jpg (17.79K)
Number of downloads: 0

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 20 December 2017 - 07:29 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Here's the formula for fixing it, QT...

https://www.instagra.../p/Bc71dWsAp_8/

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 20 December 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

Here's the formula for fixing it, QT...

https://www.instagra.../p/Bc71dWsAp_8/

I don't think my reasons and problems with the movie are in the same realm of that meme. I could be wrong.

[worry]

QuickTidal, on 20 December 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

Remember, Jyn Erso intoned "Rebellions are BUILT on hope."

Rose was like "Fuck hope, let's stop dying in sacrifices because reasons!"

Couldn't disagree more with this point. The motif throughout, from stopping Poe's coup to stopping Finn's "sacrifice", is to end these sentimental (in a macho way) but ultimately meaningless 'heroic' gestures.

Sacrifices are made...Holdo and Luke. Even Rose's sister in a micro sense. But that latter, in a macro sense, is a reflection of Poe's grandstanding, his glorying in war. Was her life his to spend? In a purely military hierarchic sense, sure I guess, but aren't they supposed to be fighting for a post-war galaxy? For people?

Finn's actions were a middle finger to the First Order, obv., but they weren't really an act of sacrifice for others. He had given up hope.

Rose's reasons are anti-futility, anti-machismo, anti-despair and thus, anti-Dark Side.

[polishgenius]

Quote

Yet he succeeds nonetheless. But he tells another character that HIS hail Mary run at the bad guys won't work... and all off the sudden what was true in the opening is not true in the closing?

Remember, Jyn Erso intoned "Rebellions are BUILT on hope."

Rose was like "Fuck hope, let's stop dying in sacrifices because reasons!"

I don't think that's really fair, tbh.

I mean, I did have a problem with Rose's play coz she had no idea they had a back way out, but that's it: her move was built on hope, that they'd find another way. And the belief that they'd do better with Finn alive than dead.

And, I mean, the opening does make clear that even though Poe's attack 'worked' it cost them more than it gained them and he shouldn't have gone through with it.

[Adhara]

So...Rey is NOT Jaina in disguise?

[Traveller]

It's certainly true for me that the opportunity for a convincing post-empire galaxy was missed in tFA. I remember the anticipation of seeing what was created after all the efforts and sacrifices of characters in the OT. And not only being disappointed at the First Order rehash, but the few seconds in which they wiped away the New republic with death star 3.

I don't know if the huge negative feedback from the trade politics in the prequels was to blame, but they sure took the easy route by omitting all of it in tFA, rather than spend just a few minutes setting up something real that could be a convincing backdrop to the action.

[Adhara]

And I wish she and Kylo Ren were twins and go for twincest in the last film. Explicit twincest. Don't look at me that way, I'm called Morgan le Fay!

[worry]

Unfortunately, V.C. Andrews died before she could be commissioned to do the novelizations.

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 20 December 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

Iirc that is the Tempest cover with Tenel Ka?

Yeppers! My fave art of her.

[Silencer]

worry, on 20 December 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 20 December 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

Remember, Jyn Erso intoned "Rebellions are BUILT on hope."

Rose was like "Fuck hope, let's stop dying in sacrifices because reasons!"

Couldn't disagree more with this point. The motif throughout, from stopping Poe's coup to stopping Finn's "sacrifice", is to end these sentimental (in a macho way) but ultimately meaningless 'heroic' gestures.

Sacrifices are made...Holdo and Luke. Even Rose's sister in a micro sense. But that latter, in a macro sense, is a reflection of Poe's grandstanding, his glorying in war. Was her life his to spend? In a purely military hierarchic sense, sure I guess, but aren't they supposed to be fighting for a post-war galaxy? For people?

Finn's actions were a middle finger to the First Order, obv., but they weren't really an act of sacrifice for others. He had given up hope.

Rose's reasons are anti-futility, anti-machismo, anti-despair and thus, anti-Dark Side.

This, especially as it was made explicit with the Dreadnought - it was one of many. And *Finn* recognised the door-buster on sight, meaning that there presumably are more of these devices around - possibly even waiting to be dropped onto the planet the second the first one is destroyed. The sacrifices are explicitly pointed out to be hollow and short-term. Sometimes that is what's needed to help everyone else get away, but too often it's the choice the small and dwindling number of Resistance fighters take to "win" a battle, a strategy that both will ultimately lose them the war and make the war they're fighting pointless, because everyone they were fighting for will be dead.


And yes, I think someone upthread nailed it QT - your rage at this movie seems unfounded, because you yourself point out that JJ did not have a plan or vision for this film. Which means all those "Mystery Boxes" that he loves to set up had no point, yet. And knowing JJ, they would never have paid off anyway. He's not good at that. It all goes back to LOST and the 10 million pointless mysteries that were asked but not answered or were cheap misleads. For example: why make such a big deal out of Rey's parentage? Because JJ. That's why. Not because he had something in mind. But because he wanted to set up a Mystery Box that he didn't even know the contents of. It's what JJ does. I think Rian did the right thing by fixing those up a bit. And he made a great movie with it. And I loved TFA, too. They definitely work well together, though, I don't know what you're on about saying you don't think they follow each other. :S


As for people on Twitter and such being haters...big shock there. Twitter is notorious for group think. So is the entire internet. Although I've seen plenty of over-exaggerated hate for this film from the other side. I mean, it was the EU fans who were calling for the (proverbial) lynching of Disney when they originally scrapped the EU. (Which they were still right to do, that thing was an unworkable mess, if we're being honest.) But I for one don't understand how you can hate this film. Dislike it? I guess. Not agree with the choices in it? Sure. But hate it? It's Star Wars. And it's a great Star Wars film, with great moments and excellent portrayals of the characters established in TFA and a great arc for Luke that makes sense ignoring all the EU stuff. Which is probably why the internet is assuming that people who dislike it are blinded by their fandom of the EU - because the biggest complaint a lot of people have is that Luke's portrayal doesn't make sense...when it does, to me, make perfect sense based on him in the OT. Less so if you look at the EU. It doesn't mean those people are right - and it's not right to flame people for having a dissenting opinion on a subjective topic, regardless - but this is obviously something people are passionate about and both sides are having a shouting match on the internet. Who cares? Twitter is built for that and it doesn't in any way invalidate or undermine your opinion or your worth as a human being. Those people are dicks.

[QuickTidal]

i think I've pointed out my issues and think they are sound and fair gripes. Shrug.

[worry]

It's okay to disagree
For you to be you
And me to be me

[worry]

I'm actually gonna try that out, BK.

Okay, I'm on Book 21, Page 237 of the Spacemapper Codex. Page 231-235 were good but 236-237 have been a slog. Might switch over to my reread of Book 7, Page 321 of the Swordhumper Chronicles. You know, Paragraph 3, Words 10-65. Sexy as hell!


IMG09238048340839.JPEG

That right there is the sword I bought to hump once I'm done with the series.