[LinearPhilosopher]

worry, on 29 December 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

Diversionary tactics are indeed beneath Silencer.

Spoiler

They are not beneath me, however!

Spoiler

you are a vile cur.

[Tsundoku]

Briar King, on 29 December 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

They're probably just avoiding spoilers. I didn't even look at the SW toys for Xmas to avoid spoilers. Give it time and she'll show up.

Yeah that's what they were saying (in part). But you know what? I'm not buying it (pun intended). I think they had an idea what was going to happen - what with her profile being so high in the movie, but so low in most of the trailers - and they were testing the waters, checking demand. Maybe they wanted to avoid having another Lisa Lionheart on their hands? Remember, Disney is all about the Benjamins, they couldn't give a rat's ass about gender politics.

Come to think about it - can anyone recall any other formerly male-centric stories where a strong female came in and shook things up, then had strong merchandise sales? Disney may just be rewriting the book here, so maybe they're naturally inclined to be conservative. When you think about it, if the demand is there, it doesn't take long to speed up production.

Now I consider it further, while press releases spoke of Rey as much as Finn in the leadup, we didn't SEE so much of her doing cool shit. And tbh most discussion and focus was about Luke, Han and Leia. The newbies were a ... curiosity. People reserved judgement until they saw the finished product.
Which is why Rey blew up so much, IMNSHO.

Thoughts?

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 29 December 2015 - 08:16 AM

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 28 December 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

I think both Silencer and Worry have made good points.

Spoiler

Kylo is nowhere near the level of a Sith Lord. He has a lot of force power, but it seems to me its mostly raw and unchannelled. He couldn't break through Rey's mind, his lightsaber style looked a lot like him flaying around, he is emotionally unstable. Inn terms of competence, he is probably near a mid-level Padawan of the old Republic. He will be trained, and he will grow as I think he will now embrace the Dark Side more fully.

Ren is exactly like Luke or Anakin. She is a natural. And I think its made quite clear that when Kylo botched up his interrogation he did something that unlocked the force within Ren. Bt even then I think we can agree that judging by her last fight she doesn't have a lot of discipline in her movements. Clearly she has much to learn as well.

Finally I really don't think Star Wars is a series were we can talk about realistic/unrealistic power ups. Luke was this ignorant farmer kid in New Hope and he blew up a death star at the end of the movie. Where did that X Wing skill come from? Force. Luke never has anything near the amount of training and practice that Vader did, so Vader defeated him in ESB. what changed from ESB to RotJ in terms of Luke's training? Nothing much really but he beat Vader in the end.

Compared to that, I think Ren's story is far more believable. She has been scrounging a living alone in a hostile environment. She has had to repair and salvage machinery and fight of thieves. Clearly the force has been flowing through her for some time. And her big victory comes against a half trained injured emotional wreck.

Look, if people loved the movie and weren't bothered by these things, I don't want to change it, but this defense is thoroughly illogical.

Spoiler

In comparing Rey's involvement to Luke's in A New Hope.

How much does Luke use the force in a new hope? Hardly at all. He meets a Jedi master, who gives him a lightsaber and even some training sessions. He is good at throwing a cable thing to swing over bridges, and yeah he can fly an x-wing, but there is a bunch of exposition setting up his confidence as a pilot and his aim. And for the pivotal shot, he has ghostly Obi-wan helping to guide him. That's it. That is his 'flowering', it is guided, and it is minimal.

I like that they make Rey good at things. I will suspend disbelief on both her piloting the millenium falcon, and these spaceships being able to manoeuvre within a planet's atmosphere.

But this force stuff is without question, for lack of a better word, forced. They may fix it in VIII, with some training she is too young to remember to make it slightly more plausible. Still, takes a lot of control for a mind trick, and there is no evidence she has even ever witnessed it done or known it was possible to do with the force,

And as for the power comparisons to Kylo, they can talk about him not mastering his powers, and that is fine, but he has mastered them enough both for mind reading (which Vader never attempted) and freezing blaster rays (which no one has done). And he got trained by the last Jedi AND whoever the new big bad is. And he will have trained with his saber.

Rey fighting him off to the point of beating him was a bit too much, and also mainly unnecessary. I get they need to set him up to be hurt like Vader, but done a tad more artfully, it could have been a gang up situation where at her peak she is just holding him off. The 'staff fighter' experience I have seen on here is a tad silly too. Its not like she is in fighting pits with the staff. She has one scene fighting off louts and bullys and since no one on the planet had a particular fear of or respect for her, it is likely that was the most significant fight of her life to date.

[Tsundoku]

Nevyn, on 29 December 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Andorion, on 28 December 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

I think both Silencer and Worry have made good points.

Spoiler

Kylo is nowhere near the level of a Sith Lord. He has a lot of force power, but it seems to me its mostly raw and unchannelled. He couldn't break through Rey's mind, his lightsaber style looked a lot like him flaying around, he is emotionally unstable. Inn terms of competence, he is probably near a mid-level Padawan of the old Republic. He will be trained, and he will grow as I think he will now embrace the Dark Side more fully.

Ren is exactly like Luke or Anakin. She is a natural. And I think its made quite clear that when Kylo botched up his interrogation he did something that unlocked the force within Ren. Bt even then I think we can agree that judging by her last fight she doesn't have a lot of discipline in her movements. Clearly she has much to learn as well.

Finally I really don't think Star Wars is a series were we can talk about realistic/unrealistic power ups. Luke was this ignorant farmer kid in New Hope and he blew up a death star at the end of the movie. Where did that X Wing skill come from? Force. Luke never has anything near the amount of training and practice that Vader did, so Vader defeated him in ESB. what changed from ESB to RotJ in terms of Luke's training? Nothing much really but he beat Vader in the end.

Compared to that, I think Ren's story is far more believable. She has been scrounging a living alone in a hostile environment. She has had to repair and salvage machinery and fight of thieves. Clearly the force has been flowing through her for some time. And her big victory comes against a half trained injured emotional wreck.

Look, if people loved the movie and weren't bothered by these things, I don't want to change it, but this defense is thoroughly illogical.

Spoiler

In comparing Rey's involvement to Luke's in A New Hope.

How much does Luke use the force in a new hope? Hardly at all. He meets a Jedi master, who gives him a lightsaber and even some training sessions. He is good at throwing a cable thing to swing over bridges, and yeah he can fly an x-wing, but there is a bunch of exposition setting up his confidence as a pilot and his aim. And for the pivotal shot, he has ghostly Obi-wan helping to guide him. That's it. That is his 'flowering', it is guided, and it is minimal.

I like that they make Rey good at things. I will suspend disbelief on both her piloting the millenium falcon, and these spaceships being able to manoeuvre within a planet's atmosphere.

But this force stuff is without question, for lack of a better word, forced. They may fix it in VIII, with some training she is too young to remember to make it slightly more plausible. Still, takes a lot of control for a mind trick, and there is no evidence she has even ever witnessed it done or known it was possible to do with the force,

And as for the power comparisons to Kylo, they can talk about him not mastering his powers, and that is fine, but he has mastered them enough both for mind reading (which Vader never attempted) and freezing blaster rays (which no one has done). And he got trained by the last Jedi AND whoever the new big bad is. And he will have trained with his saber.

Rey fighting him off to the point of beating him was a bit too much, and also mainly unnecessary. I get they need to set him up to be hurt like Vader, but done a tad more artfully, it could have been a gang up situation where at her peak she is just holding him off. The 'staff fighter' experience I have seen on here is a tad silly too. Its not like she is in fighting pits with the staff. She has one scene fighting off louts and bullys and since no one on the planet had a particular fear of or respect for her, it is likely that was the most significant fight of her life to date.

Uh, dude ...

Spoiler

Vader, mind reading (for want of a better term):

"Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister. So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side... then perhaps she will..."

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 29 December 2015 - 09:00 AM

[Morgoth]

Darth Vader was much better at mind reading. He could pluck thoughts from people without them even knowing, as pointed out by Somboku above.

[QuickTidal]

Tsundoku, on 29 December 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

Briar King, on 29 December 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

They're probably just avoiding spoilers. I didn't even look at the SW toys for Xmas to avoid spoilers. Give it time and she'll show up.

Yeah that's what they were saying (in part). But you know what? I'm not buying it (pun intended). I think they had an idea what was going to happen - what with her profile being so high in the movie, but so low in most of the trailers - and they were testing the waters, checking demand. Maybe they wanted to avoid having another Lisa Lionheart on their hands? Remember, Disney is all about the Benjamins, they couldn't give a rat's ass about gender politics.

Come to think about it - can anyone recall any other formerly male-centric stories where a strong female came in and shook things up, then had strong merchandise sales? Disney may just be rewriting the book here, so maybe they're naturally inclined to be conservative. When you think about it, if the demand is there, it doesn't take long to speed up production.

Now I consider it further, while press releases spoke of Rey as much as Finn in the leadup, we didn't SEE so much of her doing cool shit. And tbh most discussion and focus was about Luke, Han and Leia. The newbies were a ... curiosity. People reserved judgement until they saw the finished product.
Which is why Rey blew up so much, IMNSHO.

Thoughts?

It's utter and complete bullshit article and hastag. And people are fucking stupid if they havent found her toys.


She had a Black Series figure up front, a 3 1/2 inch figure up front too. Both of those in the first wave on Force Friday (I have them BOTH). The first Force Awakens Sideshow collectibles replica is of her. The only thing missing was her lightsaber figure with her outfit from the end of the film....and that is coming in the newest wave and was held in reserve to keep the secret about the ending (same reason why a Kylo Ren figure with his mask off didn't drop till now as well). They have a bobble head, Funko Pop, a mini fig Lego, Lego sets, a Disney infinity figure, plushes, her speeder even comes with her, and the new Millennium Falcon does as well. ect.

She is featured in the main lines as much as anyone else. Hell, even Han Solo wasn't in the first wave when Rey was. The toy sets with all the characters in them that I've seen...she IS in. She's a part of every specific line they have created.

The boxed set they are talking about seems to be an aberation (a bad one I'll admit)...but the idea that Rey isn't featured in the main toys like all others is uninformed, and trying to find outrage where there isn't.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 29 December 2015 - 02:28 PM

[Stalker]

Saw it last night- really enjoyed it.

Spoiler

Few things though- probably been discussed to death already- plot played it way too safe mirroring episode 4 a lot.


Rey and Fin are able to wield a lightsaber safely and effectively? And beat Ren? Who trained with Luke? Yes- Fin was a storm trooper (who was a janitor and ran from his first combat gig - not a lightsaber expert) and Rey was great with a staff (translates well I bet - but aren't lightsabers extremely dangerous to the untrained?) but they should have lost, I think. I guess you can thank Ren's mental state.


Also didn't like that Luke got a 30s non-speaking role.


That said the movie flew by. I really enjoyed it and can't wait for 8.

[Nevyn]

Tsundoku, on 29 December 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Uh, dude ...

Spoiler

Vader, mind reading (for want of a better term):

"Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister. So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side... then perhaps she will..."

Spoiler

Nah, that's just Vader's John Edwards style hot reading trick.

When he needs info from Leah in ANH, he sends in the drug droid, and they threaten her home planet to get the information. Vader doesn't even try

So his mind reading apparently works better for smack talk than interrogation.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 29 December 2015 - 03:00 PM

[Studlock]

So are people against big hero moments now?

Spoiler

Rey's picking up of the light saber and subsequent defeat of Ren was the best moment of the film, hell its the entire reason I watch films like these. Seems overly silly that Rey being competent is 'unrealistic' but having a giant sun shoot moon laser is, uh, not that?

[QuickTidal]

Studlock, on 29 December 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

So are people against big hero moments now?

Spoiler

Rey's picking up of the light saber and subsequent defeat of Ren was the best moment of the film, hell its the entire reason I watch films like these. Seems overly silly that Rey being competent is 'unrealistic' but having a giant sun shoot moon laser is, uh, not that?

Spoiler

Agreed. When that lightsaber comes out of the snow and goes flipping past Kylo and smacks in Rey's hand and she ignites it...I wanted to stand up and cheer! In fact, the audience on my first screening DID cheer. And rightly so.

I'm really not sure why anyone has an issue with it.

[Nevyn]

Studlock, on 29 December 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

So are people against big hero moments now?

Spoiler

Rey's picking up of the light saber and subsequent defeat of Ren was the best moment of the film, hell its the entire reason I watch films like these. Seems overly silly that Rey being competent is 'unrealistic' but having a giant sun shoot moon laser is, uh, not that?

Ok, I'm going to let this go. Any second now, I'll stop arguing. Tricky, as its a passionate topic and this is a slow time of year. But we are arguing about how people felt about the movie, which is inherently both unwinnable and a bit silly. If those moments didn't bug you, it doesn't make you wrong. Just you enjoyed it more than others. But FWIW, most of the people who enjoyed it less (and lets remember that those people for the most part still enjoyed it somewhat) have had reactions on very similar notes, so not only are they not wrong, but there is very clearly a thing or two that ring false to a certain demographic. Write it off as can't please everyone, if you like.

But as to your specific criticism

Spoiler

Big hero moments are great, but there is a question of proportion. For example, I think a lot more people would complain if Rey beat Ren in 3 moves, and used the force to resurrect Han from the dead and teleport everyone back home. But that would be a 'big hero' moment. I love that she is the hero but she can have a big hero moment without having it all be so definitive.


And the starkiller laser is a flawed comparison for two reasons:

• A lot of the people were complaining about that weapon too, so its not really an example of something that people accepted with no questions. Plenty of people DID find that unrealistic. As well as unoriginal.
• Because you are talking about scientific realism in real life context (where Star Wars has always had issues) , and we are talking about consistency and realism within the context of the rules of the Star Wars universe as it has been created over 6 movies. I'd argue that within the rules established in prior films, a hyperspace multipoint laser powered by a star feels plenty more realistic than an untrained Jedi who clearly bests the films supposed big bad twice, despite his having had lots of training. They had set the rules of Jedi progress, and then with Rey, they went outside them. Disagree? Fine.

But again, it is about how it feels. There really is no argument you can put forth that can make anyone bothered by that go back in time and enjoy the film more anyway

[amphibian]

But Ren isn't the big bad. The film puts clear emphasis on establishing that he's not fully trained and subservient to Snoke. Even Hux has comparable status to Ren in terms of Snoke's approval/orders.

[Nevyn]

amphibian, on 29 December 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

But Ren isn't the big bad. The film puts clear emphasis on establishing that he's not fully trained and subservient to Snoke. Even Hux has comparable status to Ren in terms of Snoke's approval/orders.

Grr, I'm too baitable today or too bored.

Spoiler

First, Ren is the end boss of this film. Won't be of the series, but he is the biggest obstacle to be overcome in this film. If people want to say he's not a big obstacle yet, that's probably a bigger story issue than the one being suggested. If you want to argue Thanos is the big bad of the first Avengers movie, it would not be a defense if the invading army and Loki were too beatable.

And Hux and Ren being equals is nothing new. A step up in fact from a fully trained Vader who answered to Tarkin.

[Studlock]

Okay, but

Spoiler

if Ren is the big bad of the movie but not the series what do you want here? Not a final fight between the main protagonists and the main antagonists? Ren completely dominating the heroes in the big climax of the film? I'm mostly just confused about the proposed alternative here--'Rey being powerful is unrealistic, so instead she should have died/lost/maimed by the villain instead, that'll clearly make the movie both more realistic and enjoyable!'. I'm not following the logic here--this ended in comparable terms to the first Star Wars movies, in which this film is a clear send up to, Rey is a comparable hero to Luke, and it's not like the heroes got away unharmed--Finn is in a coma. If you have a problem with the ending of this film you should have an ending of the very first film--but that is rarely the problem, the problem is Rey is a 'Mary Sue' a term that get's thrown around a lot but without much cause outside of a women is as competent as hero men. So seriously what's the 'better' ending here?

.

[Obdigore]

So just to wade in here with probably unwanted commentary

Spoiler

This film was to introduce the new characters and start to 'phase out' the old characters. I'm exceptionally unhappy with the 'death star 3.0' plot device used, but this movie was absolutely clearly to establish the 'next gen', and having a personal animosity between them is a good emotional motivator.

The second movie is going to include a number of rocky-style training montages (for both sides) AND hopefully some fucking space battles.

Who was the 'big bad' in A New Hope? Vader? They didn't defeat him either. They ran from him and he struck down Obi-Wan. Then the rebels came back with more ships than they had in this movie and pew pew got blown up except for a handful, and Vader got clipped by a friendly ship and sent him spinning off into space.

Second, I don't recall seeing a Vader who ANSWERED to The Grand Moff. I recall seeing Vader acquiesce to Tarkin's wish that Vader not kill one of his subordinates, and only after he had made his point. Almost like they were equals. A Grand Moff is in charge of huge swaths of space, and Vader was the Emperor's 'wet works' man. Vader is outside the normal chain of command but a Grand Moff isn't a Lieutenant that can be easily replaced.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 29 December 2015 - 06:48 PM

[Grief]

Studlock, on 29 December 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

So are people against big hero moments now?

Spoiler

Rey's picking up of the light saber and subsequent defeat of Ren was the best moment of the film, hell its the entire reason I watch films like these. Seems overly silly that Rey being competent is 'unrealistic' but having a giant sun shoot moon laser is, uh, not that?

This is an argument that I find irritating whenever I come across it, and I find it really odd to see someone on making it on a SF board. You can apply it to almost any SF -- why complain about anything being narratively inconsistent, contrived or unrealistic when it has dragons in it? I guess we should just abandon all narrative criticism within genre fiction right, seeing as it's obviously pointless?

The answer is obviously internal consistency.

In this specific case:

Spoiler

Planet destroying devices are established from the outset of the series. Death star V3 is essentially a bigger version of the Death Star from the earlier films. It doesn't jar with the ideas established earlier within the narrative.

The criticisms I've seen of Rey's competence revolve around it's lack of consistency within the Star Wars universe. That is, it jars with the ideas we get from the original trilogy about how long it takes to become that competent with the force, or a lightsaber, etc.

As for "big hero moments", to me that just reads as handwaving critical approaches to the film with "but it's cooool". People aren't criticising it because it's a "big hero moment", they're criticising it because they found it contrived, inconsistent, immersion breaking, or otherwise narratively unsatisfying.

As for a better ending, I honestly think that it's not difficult to find one:

Spoiler

Keep the plot smaller scale, and more tightly focussed, rather than going for big "epic" set pieces like yet another death star. Maybe have a small raid to get the rest of the map or something like that -- have the tension coming from a race to find Luke (and keep Ren an intimidating and credible threat throughout). For your ending victory, have it based simply on escape (as other people have mentioned, the series has absolutely done this before). You presumably don't want to kill the main characters, so this gives you a better way of avoiding this without contrivances such as convenient chasms and the aforementioned saber issues people have.

In fact, the film suggests a very obvious way to manage this ending (while even including a saber fight if you want); have Han Solo sacrifice himself to allow Rey and Finn to escape from Ren after a less evenly matched fight.

There are so many ways they could have written the ending without the issues it has, imo. It's what I find irritating with the film -- it's generally very very good, but has a few jarring flaws that mostly seem like it would be relatively easy to avoid.

[QuickTidal]

Grief, on 29 December 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

Studlock, on 29 December 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

So are people against big hero moments now?

Spoiler

Rey's picking up of the light saber and subsequent defeat of Ren was the best moment of the film, hell its the entire reason I watch films like these. Seems overly silly that Rey being competent is 'unrealistic' but having a giant sun shoot moon laser is, uh, not that?

This is an argument that I find irritating whenever I come across it, and I find it really odd to see someone on making it on a SF board. You can apply it to almost any SF -- why complain about anything being narratively inconsistent, contrived or unrealistic when it has dragons in it?

The answer is obviously internal consistency.

In this specific case:

Spoiler

Planet destroying devices are established from the outset of the series. Death star V3 is essentially a bigger version of the Death Star from the earlier films. It doesn't jar with the ideas established earlier within the narrative.

The criticisms I've seen of Rey's competence revolve around it's lack of consistency within the Star Wars universe. That is, it jars with the ideas we get from the original trilogy about how long it takes to become that competent with the force, or a lightsaber, etc.

As for "big hero moments", to me that just reads as handwaving critical approaches to the film with "but it's cooool". People aren't criticising it because it's a "big hero moment", they're criticising it because they found it contrived, inconsistent, immersion breaking, or otherwise narratively unsatisfying.

My answer to all this:

It's Star Wars.

Not everyone is critically examining a big, fun, fantasy space opera for internal consistency or narrative inconsistencies.

I'm certainly not.

[Nevyn]

Studlock, on 29 December 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

Okay, but

Spoiler

if Ren is the big bad of the movie but not the series what do you want here? Not a final fight between the main protagonists and the main antagonists? Ren completely dominating the heroes in the big climax of the film? I'm mostly just confused about the proposed alternative here--'Rey being powerful is unrealistic, so instead she should have died/lost/maimed by the villain instead, that'll clearly make the movie both more realistic and enjoyable!'. I'm not following the logic here--this ended in comparable terms to the first Star Wars movies, in which this film is a clear send up to, Rey is a comparable hero to Luke, and it's not like the heroes got away unharmed--Finn is in a coma. If you have a problem with the ending of this film you should have an ending of the very first film--but that is rarely the problem, the problem is Rey is a 'Mary Sue' a term that get's thrown around a lot but without much cause outside of a women is as competent as hero men. So seriously what's the 'better' ending here?

.

How did ANH get around it? Luke is flying instead of fighting and needs surprise help from Han to elude Vader.

Spoiler

They had 2 people fighting Kylo and a giant wookie around that could have even been written it to help. And they write it as Chewie firing one angry shot then off to the Falcon, and the other heroes taken turns being unconcious while the other fights alone. Lets not pretend that scene is not easy to rewrite so that it still show's Rey's potential and has her holding off but not turning the tables on Kylo, and then others helping, or even the giant splittings of earth leading to Kylo being wounded. If they need so badly to have Kylo become more machine it could happen other ways. Personally I suspect they avoided that ending not in an attempt to make Rey a Mary Sue, but because they were afraid that Rey having more help would undercut the notion of a 'strong' female heroine even though Luke had help in the film they basically remade. So instead she needs to turn the tables all by herself and not just fight him to a standstill but badly wound him.

Besides, the starkiller is already blowing up. They already 'won'. The only stakes left are the individual heroes lives.

And don't give me nonsense about a hero gangup weakening the moment. Worked fine in episodes 4, 6, and even 1 if you count prequels.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 29 December 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

My answer to all this:

It's Star Wars.

Not everyone is critically examining a big, fun, fantasy space opera for internal consistency or narrative inconsistencies.

I'm certainly not.

Again, not about critically examining.

You felt how you felt when you watched it. The complaints are intellectual attempts to explain what felt odd/wrong about watching the big fun space opera at the time. They are things that made it less fun for some people.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Studlock, on 29 December 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

So are people against big hero moments now?

Spoiler

Rey's picking up of the light saber and subsequent defeat of Ren was the best moment of the film, hell its the entire reason I watch films like these. Seems overly silly that Rey being competent is 'unrealistic' but having a giant sun shoot moon laser is, uh, not that?

Because one is a simple plot device to spur the story on, the other is basically a cheat in terms of development. Rather than having organic character growth it's taking a shortcut and creating a character and is unreasonably competent, hence, mary sue. It ruins the narrative. Thats why its being discussed.

Studlock, on 29 December 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

Okay, but

Spoiler

if Ren is the big bad of the movie but not the series what do you want here? Not a final fight between the main protagonists and the main antagonists? Ren completely dominating the heroes in the big climax of the film? I'm mostly just confused about the proposed alternative here--'Rey being powerful is unrealistic, so instead she should have died/lost/maimed by the villain instead, that'll clearly make the movie both more realistic and enjoyable!'. I'm not following the logic here--this ended in comparable terms to the first Star Wars movies, in which this film is a clear send up to, Rey is a comparable hero to Luke, and it's not like the heroes got away unharmed--Finn is in a coma. If you have a problem with the ending of this film you should have an ending of the very first film--but that is rarely the problem, the problem is Rey is a 'Mary Sue' a term that get's thrown around a lot but without much cause outside of a women is as competent as hero men. So seriously what's the 'better' ending here?

.

Spoiler

others have mentioned ways of altering the scene. My 2cents is that rift between them after the fight happen couldve happen during and brought it to a stalemate. And thats working within the existing framework, and guess what im terrible at writing. Guarantee someone whose job and im assuming passion is to write can come up with something better.

Im also getting sick and tired of people playing the gender card. Take your platitudes elsewhere, my issue, and im assuming what others think the issue behind this is, is that you have a character (can be any gender and any sex) who from a narrative standpoint is too strong. When a character is too strong, when they keep getting powerups for no good reason epcept plot convenience it ruins the experience. Tension is gone and what you're left with is a power fantasy. Now there's a purpose to power fantasy but it's not got writing. Unless you're watching a parody like One Punch Man, Overpowered heroes are boring and ruin the story. Thats why i have issues with rey. It's the same reason i have issues with most mary sues and most gary sues.

And maybe the word realistic isn't the right word, what if instead we used the word plausible, that help any

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 29 December 2015 - 08:38 PM