[Andorion]

Briar King, on 26 December 2015 - 03:40 AM, said:

Ok Slow Ben still hasn't watched.

Ando

Spoiler

yes I saw Han coming(he actually wanted and pushed GL to do this in Jedi) as soon as he and Chewy separated setting the charges. He says to Chewy "We ll meet back here" I knew for sure then and suspected it before when Leia told him to bring him home when they hugged. That was all signs of it, esp they way light was failing during charge up of weapon.

I did enjoy the movie more 2nd time yes but Finn still bugged me with Phasma big time. I still am curious on how this movie stacks up 5 yrs down the road. As I said with SW movies a bowl of koolaid is served and it takes time to see if the flavor was right.

Phasma isn't a EU thing but more in the same league with Boba Fett from movies. It's the fans that build these characters up. Phasma was a let down to me kinda like how Boba was a let down getting knocked in Sarlacc Pit in Jedi. It was corny. Here's hoping they do something good with her character in 8-9(if she indeed survived Starkiller base).

Spoiler

The split up moment was when I sensed it as well. I was wondering if they would kill off any of the old cast. You see I have not followed any Star Wars related media recently, so I had no idea if Ford had said anything about this. The entire movie was totally fresh and unspoilt to me for that reason.

I think Phasma survived, and we will see her again, probably in a showdown with Finn. I think that garbage compactor line was just a humourous nod to how Han and Luke ended up in one in the original trilogy.

Regarding this movie holding up in the long term, I know I am in a minority in this, but even now, I don't really dislike Episode 1 and I love episode 3. And to me this movie is better than all three prequels, so it will probably be ok in 5 years. Of course the sequels to come will be a big factor in that judgement.

QT's remarsk about the books have got me curious, and I think the new EU will join my TBR in 2016.

I see your problem with Finn. It didn't jar so much with me, though I did think he was a bit inconsistent in the middle. I loved him in the beginning and in the end, though I think JJ missed a narrative opportunity here. We first see Finn when the other trooper dies and leaves his bloody finger prints on his helmet. I thought it would have given his character more depth if later he had problems with shooting at the stormtroopers out of old feelings of fraternity. If the movie had been longer, I would have loved to hear more from him, about how stormtroopers are just doing their jobs and how it feels to be ordered to shoot innocents or how it feels to be cannonfodder.

IMO the best new thing is Rey. I loved Daisy Ridley and love her character,

[Silencer]

I'm going to suggest spoiler tagging plot details until the end of the holiday season (so after New Years weekend) just so people are well clear of the likely first watching period (as some might only get to see it in between the big holiday days due to work etc).

Just for safety.

[Andorion]

Guys I need some advice. My friend is a total Star Wars newbie. He binged through the 6 movies, then went to see 7 with us. Now he is super into Star Wars, but is very confused about the EU. He keeps on wanting to read the old EU. When I told him about Disney he asked whether it mattered if he only read the EU set before Episode 1? Also wants to know who Han Solo's father is. I have no idea what to tell him

[worry]

Tell him to read the best of, but be aware that it's now all just fan-fic. He can handle it.

[Tsundoku]

Briar King, on 26 December 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

On the movie a yr thing as of now we have:

Rouge One Dec 16'

Now, y'see I thought Red (Rouge) Sqn was retired as a callsign and replaced by Rogue Sqn ...

[amphibian]

worry, on 27 December 2015 - 04:39 AM, said:

Tell him to read the best of, but be aware that it's now all just fan-fic. He can handle it.

Shadows of the Empire, Shadows of Mindor, the Thrawn trilogy, Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, and the rest can be skipped or wiki summaried. The books with Callista are good. And the Crystal Star by Vonda McIntyre too.

The biggest part of the EU was the Yuuzhan Vong war, which had maybe 20+ books and much development of the next generation of characters. The elimination of this is what ticks Briar King off. Honestly, it's not worth reading all, but some of the best were alright.

The comic books are mostly terrible and the Jedi Academy books/Admiral Daala books are not good either.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 27 December 2015 - 05:04 AM

[Serenity]

Has anyone here watched the despecialized versions of the original trilogy? I've only just managed to get hold of them. They're impressive. Most impressive.

[amphibian]

Serenity, on 27 December 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Has anyone here watched the despecialized versions of the original trilogy? I've only just managed to get hold of them. They're impressive. Most impressive.

I've seen the originals (on VHS) many, many times. I saw the "touched up" versions on VHS as well.

Didn't like the touched up version changes beyond the lightsabers and lasers. Han should shoot first.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Haven't read any of the other replies. I haven't checked any replies here since i came out for obvious reasons. So last night I finaly saw the movie in imax last night and... i'm kinda dissapointed in the movie.

Unsure what the current spoiler policy is so ill just spoiler everything and not piss off the mods

reason 1

Spoiler

Ray is a mary sue
When she first starts off, shes a badass, fights off some thugs, im like cool, a strong female lead
Then she learns how to pilot the falcon , some bumps along the way but shes strong in the force and force did make you good pilot.
Shes a good mechanic, shes a salvager so you gotta know something about spaceship parts.
She becomes a great marksman with no prior training... force i guess i means it's alright
She then overpowers this sith lord with no training... i can kinda get it shes got raw force potential
She then uses force persuasion, without ever being trained how... starting to stretch things...
Then she wins the lightsaber fight....

Like COME ON. It's getting ridiculous! This is 2015, we've gotten to the point where writers should be good enough we doing need mary sues

reason 2

Spoiler

Laughable Villain
Kylo Ren was a great villain, until he took the mask off. It rob him of his menacing and foreign nature. The minute they humanised him and then turned him into some whiny kid with daddy issues who then gets his ass kicked by a bunch of nimbling rookies? COME ON! To contrast this with ep5, luke got his ass handed to him by vader and he still had some training under his belt.

[/spoiler]

And the biggest reason of all however

Spoiler

repeated references to previous trilogy,
At the start of the film i liked the subtle nods to the previous films. The little things that established continuity, the references. I like that. What started to grate on me was the sheer amount of it and after the 3/4 mark with the han solo scene with kylo, where i knew what was going to happen before it happened, i just got taken out of the moment. Im not saying its the end that ruined the film for me, quite the opposite.

Im saying the systematic references to previous films is what killed the movie for me. At the begining, i can get it, you're trying to build familiarity with the viewers but theres still new content, new ways of approaching star wars with nice concepts. But the fact it kept on referencing previous movies, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Become your own dam creation! I wanted to see star wars 7, something new, something that continues on the legacy but Becomes it's own dam the thing. I wanted a movie that can stand on it's own. Instead im given a movie that even though it has potential to grow on it's own, feels the need to continually refer back to the previous films in order to be succesful. This is by far the greatest issue i have with the movie, the fact i felt i was watching a fan service movie, and not a real movie.

And since everyone has been praising the film, i know i'm in for some hate.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 27 December 2015 - 03:53 PM

[Serenity]

amphibian, on 27 December 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

Serenity, on 27 December 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Has anyone here watched the despecialized versions of the original trilogy? I've only just managed to get hold of them. They're impressive. Most impressive.

I've seen the originals (on VHS) many, many times. I saw the "touched up" versions on VHS as well.

Didn't like the touched up version changes beyond the lightsabers and lasers. Han should shoot first.

No, the DE-specialized editions, as in the fan project to restore the original trilogy to its original theatrical versions

http://originaltrilo...2713/page/1#top

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QXifjbxZDAM

This post has been edited by Serenity: 27 December 2015 - 05:24 PM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

LinearPhilosopher, on 27 December 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

Haven't read any of the other replies. I haven't checked any replies here since i came out for obvious reasons...[snip]...And since everyone has been praising the film, i know i'm in for some hate.

Read through the last few pages - it definitely has not been all praise.

I'm hoping this comic ends up becoming canon: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Secret_Tales_of_Luke's_Hand!

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 27 December 2015 - 05:41 PM

[LinearPhilosopher]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 27 December 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 27 December 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

Haven't read any of the other replies. I haven't checked any replies here since i came out for obvious reasons...[snip]...And since everyone has been praising the film, i know i'm in for some hate.

Read through the last few pages - it definitely has not been all praise.

I'm hoping this comic ends up becoming canon: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Secret_Tales_of_Luke's_Hand!

i've read through last 8 pages or so.. not gona respond to everything, this isn't mafia. I was talking about it with a friend though and overall, and some indirect responses to what i've seen in this thread.

Spoiler

Characters getting frequent powerups because the plot demands it is one of the most glaring signs of shitty writing. I watch a shit ton of anime so i'm familiar with this crap. It almost never good writing (and those are very very specific scenarios). The best type of action animes are those where the character has to train for their power as it shows growth and gives plausibility for the scene. Simarly,. in previous SW movies, the greats, anakin, luke etc. all had potential and did get powerups but they were slights and they did train for them. Anakin didn't suddenly become a master jedi and luke didn't overnight become stronger than his father, quite the opposite in fact.

Also saying it's fantasy is a cop out answer. The implication in a statement like that is that you are saying shitty writing is essential to the genre's very being. Saying it's fantasy so it's ok, is saying because it is fantasy good writing is not required. Fantasy is a genre, it's a categorisation of stories and elements. That's it. Nowhere in there is it mentioned it has to be shittily written to be a fantasy piece.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 27 December 2015 - 06:19 PM

[amphibian]

Serenity, on 27 December 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

No, the DE-specialized editions, as in the fan project to restore the original trilogy to its original theatrical versions

http://originaltrilo...2713/page/1#top

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QXifjbxZDAM

If you have star wars in a pre-1997 VHS or laserdisc format, you have the theatrical release. Which I do have. I also have the post-1997 VHS because I was a dumbass with spending my holiday gift cash.

What this involves is the alteration of the DVD/BluRay etc versions - which are only the post-1997 touched up versions - into the pre-1997 versions, but with better image quality. So yes, I've seen the exact movies, just not in as good image quality. Is that a big difference?

Eh, I think it's only going to be a cool thing for the obsessives.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 27 December 2015 - 06:25 PM

[Serenity]

amphibian, on 27 December 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

Serenity, on 27 December 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

No, the DE-specialized editions, as in the fan project to restore the original trilogy to its original theatrical versions

http://originaltrilo...2713/page/1#top

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QXifjbxZDAM

If you have star wars in a pre-1997 VHS or laserdisc format, you have the theatrical release. Which I do have. I also have the post-1997 VHS because I was a dumbass with spending my holiday gift cash.

What this involves is the alteration of the DVD/BluRay etc versions - which are only the post-1997 touched up versions - into the pre-1997 versions, but with better image quality. So yes, I've seen the exact movies, just not in as good image quality. Is that a big difference?

Eh, I think it's only going to be a cool thing for the obsessives.

Fair enough - personally, I want to be able to watch them in HD - guess I'm obsessive

[worry]

Is Mary Sue now just a catchall term for women with talent, power, and ingenuity? Or should I anticipate all the similar complaints about, say, Apocalypse? I'll stick them right next to my piles of think-pieces on Jason Bourne and Macho Dad (dork from the Taken franchise).

[Silencer]

No, it would be a fairish use (except we have so few competent female leads in Western movies that it probably isn't worth complaining at this point) - except

Spoiler

that Kylo Ren is NOT a Sith Lord.

It took Luke three movies to get to the point where he could challenge Vader, right? Got his ass kinda kicked in ESB.

But... That was Vader. Force prodigy. Jedi Knight of immense power for several years after his training. Then he turned. Brought down the Jedi order. Then ruled the galaxy for decades.

Ren is barely out of training. Snoke has obviously not been doing much to make him more powerful - likely on purpose to avoid the "Get betrayed by your own power-hungry apprentice" thing - but just letting him do his thing on the hunt for Luke. I doubt Snoke ever expected Ren to fight and/win against Luke.

Sure, it's surprising she's that powerful. But she's clearly meant to be a natural talent in the Force, a prodigy if you will, the same way Anakin was.

And it's also not helpful if one looks at this as the end of things. Growth? That will be when Kylo comes back in 8, more powerful and absolutely pissed off. I fully expect we'll see Rey on the losing side in the next one. (Remember, this is Ren's story too - if he was just another Vader, it would be too similar and inexplicable. He has to grow as a villain too.)

So it's a perspective thing. I definitely felt myself that Rey was *little* on the competent side, but was quite happy with that overall, and I think it will lead nicely into future growth. Certainly, I'll give some leeway for having a decent female lead and an opportunity to have the villain develop as much as the heroes. It might not work out, but we'll have to wait and see.

[worry]

Spoiler

I honestly think your argument (in spoilers) supports my point, or at least isn't a counterargument, but to clarify further: I think "Mary Sue" ignores the practicalities of her life on that planet, the known unknowns (ie her origins), and the fact that she quite clearly knows the OT recent history (since it's common knowledge). I think Han's "confirmation" of those stories as "real" is a bit overblown. He was never saying "Yeah, the Force is real. Luke was real." Everybody knows all this. That reading is like suggesting he confirmed George Washington was real and the American Revolution happened, to people who precede even 1812. No spit, Snurlock. He's just confirming that even some of the seemingly apocryphal stuff was true.

As far as her talent with the Force, who knows if she's been using it (unknowingly) all her life? She certainly doesn't sweat making huge leaps into dark cavernous depths. I don't know if there's a big line between prodigy and adept, but I'd favor the latter in her case in the same way Malazites use it (though I'd say the same of Anakin too). These are both "chosen" of the Force, which very much means QT's evocation of fantasy over sf is quite vital. That may strike people as generic in and of itself, but 1) Star Wars is in part an attempt at mythology and 2) Rey is closer to a twisting of the trope in the same way Paran and Crokus are. She's got some of the usual resistance-to-fate cliches, but she's certainly not a naive farm girl, and she's excited by her blooming (or at least, now-acknowledged) power. That she has a uniquely high power level seemingly early makes her extraordinary, but that's why she's the co-protagonist in the first place. Extraordinary people exist, she's one of them. It's not that weird. 42 is about Jackie Robinson, the extraordinary baseball player, not the kid he played stickball with who grew up to run a donut shop. You could make that film too, even well, but it wouldn't be a great baseball movie.

[worry]

That's way more than I ever wanted to argue about Star Wars. I can feel it. I'm b...I'm bec...I'm becoming A NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERDDDDDDDDDDDDD!

[Andorion]

I think both Silencer and Worry have made good points.

Spoiler

Kylo is nowhere near the level of a Sith Lord. He has a lot of force power, but it seems to me its mostly raw and unchannelled. He couldn't break through Rey's mind, his lightsaber style looked a lot like him flaying around, he is emotionally unstable. Inn terms of competence, he is probably near a mid-level Padawan of the old Republic. He will be trained, and he will grow as I think he will now embrace the Dark Side more fully.

Ren is exactly like Luke or Anakin. She is a natural. And I think its made quite clear that when Kylo botched up his interrogation he did something that unlocked the force within Ren. Bt even then I think we can agree that judging by her last fight she doesn't have a lot of discipline in her movements. Clearly she has much to learn as well.

Finally I really don't think Star Wars is a series were we can talk about realistic/unrealistic power ups. Luke was this ignorant farmer kid in New Hope and he blew up a death star at the end of the movie. Where did that X Wing skill come from? Force. Luke never has anything near the amount of training and practice that Vader did, so Vader defeated him in ESB. what changed from ESB to RotJ in terms of Luke's training? Nothing much really but he beat Vader in the end.

Compared to that, I think Ren's story is far more believable. She has been scrounging a living alone in a hostile environment. She has had to repair and salvage machinery and fight of thieves. Clearly the force has been flowing through her for some time. And her big victory comes against a half trained injured emotional wreck.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 28 December 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

It's more fully fleshed out in ANH's deleted scenes with Luke and Biggs that Luke is outstanding at flying and sniping small targets "wamp Rats"(that line made it in movie in the Death Star mission plan) with his T 16 Sky Hopper.

But an atmospheric pest exterminator hardly compares to a space fighter like the X Wing, especially under intense combat conditions