[bluedust]

Okay, so I've only read the series once, and this book once. Love both by the way.

I'm just curious on Olar. I get she's Azathanai and can change shape, but why did she just make a stomach mouth and eat that dude? I guess SE adding dramatic effect? Also why did she stay in the tree and get burned instead of just kill those fuckers?

I read through FoD fast cause I loved it so I might have missed this, that whole scene just seemed odd to me.

[worry]

Well, OE isn't just an Azathanai, she's already a goddess (an Elder God, basically) by the time we see her. She's already empowering herself with blood, though no one so conspicuous as a Jaghut as far as we know. Hence the feeding on Raskan, a mortal man. Plus she presents it, from her perspective at least, as a gift to him. And I could be wrong, since it's not exactly cause-and-effect explained, but she seemed to use him to make a doll/statue. Perhaps they're fertility dolls, perhaps they're all different kinds of dolls, but she makes them for a reason I'm sure. I'd associate what she did with Raskan more with the womb than with the stomach, personally.

As far as the fire thing goes, I'm pretty sure if she got out of that tree Rint would have chopped her up. Or maybe they just didn't teach Azathanai "stop, drop, and roll" in school. Plus, you know, one of them is carrying Draconus's grandkid.

[bluedust]

worrywort, on 11 October 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Well, OE isn't just an Azathanai, she's already a goddess (an Elder God, basically) by the time we see her. She's already empowering herself with blood, though no one so conspicuous as a Jaghut as far as we know. Hence the feeding on Raskan, a mortal man. Plus she presents it, from her perspective at least, as a gift to him. And I could be wrong, since it's not exactly cause-and-effect explained, but she seemed to use him to make a doll/statue. Perhaps they're fertility dolls, perhaps they're all different kinds of dolls, but she makes them for a reason I'm sure. I'd associate what she did with Raskan more with the womb than with the stomach, personally.

As far as the fire thing goes, I'm pretty sure if she got out of that tree Rint would have chopped her up. Or maybe they just didn't teach Azathanai "stop, drop, and roll" in school. Plus, you know, one of them is carrying Draconus's grandkid.

But would she know that it was Drac's grandkid? Even still, killing wasn't needed. Just seems weird that an all powerful being lets herself get burned in a tree when she can turn herself into whatever she pleases. Fly away maybe?

Edit: Hell, turn into a cheetah and run the fuck away at high speed? I dunno. Maybe we'll see in the next two books.

This post has been edited by bluedust: 11 October 2012 - 05:35 AM

[Kanese S's]

bluedust, on 11 October 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

worrywort, on 11 October 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Well, OE isn't just an Azathanai, she's already a goddess (an Elder God, basically) by the time we see her. She's already empowering herself with blood, though no one so conspicuous as a Jaghut as far as we know. Hence the feeding on Raskan, a mortal man. Plus she presents it, from her perspective at least, as a gift to him. And I could be wrong, since it's not exactly cause-and-effect explained, but she seemed to use him to make a doll/statue. Perhaps they're fertility dolls, perhaps they're all different kinds of dolls, but she makes them for a reason I'm sure. I'd associate what she did with Raskan more with the womb than with the stomach, personally.

As far as the fire thing goes, I'm pretty sure if she got out of that tree Rint would have chopped her up. Or maybe they just didn't teach Azathanai "stop, drop, and roll" in school. Plus, you know, one of them is carrying Draconus's grandkid.

But would she know that it was Drac's grandkid? Even still, killing wasn't needed. Just seems weird that an all powerful being lets herself get burned in a tree when she can turn herself into whatever she pleases. Fly away maybe?

Edit: Hell, turn into a cheetah and run the fuck away at high speed? I dunno. Maybe we'll see in the next two books.

Where did you get the impression that she's all powerful?

[bluedust]

Kanese S, on 11 October 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

bluedust, on 11 October 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

worrywort, on 11 October 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Well, OE isn't just an Azathanai, she's already a goddess (an Elder God, basically) by the time we see her. She's already empowering herself with blood, though no one so conspicuous as a Jaghut as far as we know. Hence the feeding on Raskan, a mortal man. Plus she presents it, from her perspective at least, as a gift to him. And I could be wrong, since it's not exactly cause-and-effect explained, but she seemed to use him to make a doll/statue. Perhaps they're fertility dolls, perhaps they're all different kinds of dolls, but she makes them for a reason I'm sure. I'd associate what she did with Raskan more with the womb than with the stomach, personally.

As far as the fire thing goes, I'm pretty sure if she got out of that tree Rint would have chopped her up. Or maybe they just didn't teach Azathanai "stop, drop, and roll" in school. Plus, you know, one of them is carrying Draconus's grandkid.

But would she know that it was Drac's grandkid? Even still, killing wasn't needed. Just seems weird that an all powerful being lets herself get burned in a tree when she can turn herself into whatever she pleases. Fly away maybe?

Edit: Hell, turn into a cheetah and run the fuck away at high speed? I dunno. Maybe we'll see in the next two books.

Where did you get the impression that she's all powerful?

Well I mean in the sense that you can turn yourself into anything. I figure if she can make her stomach eat a dude she could fly away, turn into a turtle thing and jump onto them. I mean really, when you can turn into anything the possibilities are endless.

[Kanese S's]

We don't know how involved the process of azathanai shapeshifting is. It could be extremely taxing, and limited, for all we know. There aren't any all powerful gods in the Malaz universe that I've seen so far.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 11 October 2012 - 06:00 AM

[worry]

She knows it's Drac's grandkid because she knows Arathan is the father, and that Drac is his father. In fact she knows more about Draconus than Arathan does, or anyone else in that group.

[bluedust]

Kanese S, on 11 October 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

We don't know how involved the process of azathanai shapeshifting is. It could be extremely taxing, and limited, for all we know. There aren't any all powerful gods in the Malaz universe that I've seen so far.

Okay, that's fair enough. Maybe it is taxing.

Edit: Though thinking about it, more taxing then being burned in a tree? ehh, I'll just say RAFO.

This post has been edited by bluedust: 11 October 2012 - 06:06 AM

[Kanese S's]

Might take a fair bit of concentration. I've never suffered horrific burn wounds, but I'd guess that it might be difficult to focus on doing much else while being burnt alive.

[Puck]

To add to what worry and Kan have said, she's also somewhat limited to her current form by her worshippers. She complains to Drac earlier that her worshippers make her look fat and ugly and have a furnace in her stomach. Sounded to me like she didn't perticularly approve of not having a say in the matter.

[worry]

Indeed, and alternately, Kilmandaros is happy that the Forulkan don't worship her, given what that would do to her.

[Held]

I had the same problem with feeling a disconnect with the reality presented with Olar burning in the tree. She can shape shift. She can kill people by stuffing their head in her body. She can make clay dolls from her body and she can mess with people's minds. So, I didn't buy into her burning in the trees. I think she wanted Rint to think that she burned in the tree. She can turn herself into whatever she wants.

[Puck]

I somehow doubt shapeshifting means she can turn herself into a rabbit in the blink of an eye. It's probably limited, even with the Azathanai, and Olar Ethil is the best example. If her worshippers don't imagine her to look like a rabbit, she won't be able to look like a rabbit.

Personally I also thought she wanted Rint to think she burned more than that she actually burned.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Also lets not forget that Tellan is her warren and that warren is fire. Yes yes, there are no warrens *yet*, but the connection is there. Not as if fire was deadly to an Azathanai, anyway, as what do we really know about them? Bitch has a mouth in her stomach. Perhaps the burning tree is foreshadowing of the warren. Let's not forget "Burn" either. But the topper is, if a flabby azathanai has a furnace in her stomach, I don't think a little fire is going to harm her long-term.

The statue she excreted also reminds me of the small Fener statue that Karsa destroyed. There was power in that... At first I was all "ter'angreal!" Then I was like "Wrong books..."

Still, that whole scene is quite possibly the best non-climax non-convergence type scene that SE has written. I loved it and i read that chapter three times in a row. I'm gonna go read it again now.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Puck, on 11 October 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Personally I also thought she wanted Rint to think she burned more than that she actually burned.

And this too. Remember what she put Toc and Torrent through. She fucks with minds. Like a bad girlfriend. I wonder if SE had a bad girlfriend named Ethel?

[Abyss]

Don't forget that for all her power as of TCG (millenia of worship, draconic, undead), Torrent, dying, takes her out with a Rhivi arrow.

It's a staple of these books that even gods are vulnerable to mortals, and in the tree scene, she's not much of a god yet.

The 'furnace in her belly' thing is at least partly rehtorical, or whe wouldn't have been burping up idols.

I actually think that sequence is brilliant.... her aspect drives her to a 'merciful' act towards Raskan, the fact that it gives him peace by killing him is lost on Ola but to the Borderswords only the death is significant, and they would have attacked her given the opportunity.

Setting the fire instead is never expected to kill her, but his intention was to hurt her and since he doesn't worship her at all, that may have fueled (pun intended) the effect.

if she had just stood around, he would have gone at her with a sword with the full intent and expectation of killing her, which may have actually been more effective.

That entire sequence is actually one of my favourites in the book.

[Orlion]

1)She's arrogant.
2)She's arrogant.
3)She is F-ing ARROGANT!

Keeping those three points in mind, the beheading of Raskan had the feel of a fertility cult to me. Some ancient American tribes would actually bury their dead in pots shaped like wombs to represent a return of sorts. After Olar Ethil did this mercy, she decided that she wanted to stick around and see the reactions of the Broaderswords. Mostly because she's a sadistic bitch. So she hid in a tree, fairly certain that she would not be spotted. But she was, by Feren.

As far as the fire hurting her, two things: 1) Part of her worship/aspect seems to be fire. Rint did not completely believe that he would be doing anything but sending her back to her realm, as it were. unless 2)"the desire behind the fire has power. I think it does. I think that is why a raider's firing a house is a crime, an affront. Burning to death-malicious hands touching the flame to life-I think this has meaning. I think it stains the fire itself."

So desire 'taints' the fire with something else, and that something else might be able to hurt Olar Ethil when pure fire might not. Kinda like how drinking a glass of water won't hurt you, but if someone put a few drops of cyanide into the water, it would definitely have an effect.

Also, I see no evidence that Olar Ethil can shapeshift like she can in the MbotF. And though it is speculated that Azathani can change shapes, it does not seem that a lot of them do.

[Abyss]

Orlion, on 11 October 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

...though it is speculated that Azathani can change shapes, it does not seem that a lot of them do.

Exactly. And the whole worship/aspect element would affect what they might be capable of.

It goes without saying (but probably needs be said) that just because a character, or even the narrator, says something doesn't make it accurate.

[Kanese S's]

I think it's telling that many of the Azathanai, all of whom might be able to change shape, don't do so very often, and don't change that drastically. I like the point about how worshipers might place limitations on how one can appear. Olar Ethil apparently does not want to be fat, but her worshipers see her that way, and so that is her primary appearance, belly opening not withstanding.

It seems as if it can be difficult for an Azathanai to change shapes completely (unless they are soletaken). Perhaps it is even moreso if they are very actively worshiped.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 11 October 2012 - 11:20 PM

[nacht]

I read this sequence again and had some thoughts on it.

I think they have power only regarding their aspects. Olar Ethil can only control fire. Like a charamander pokemon :-)

Also worship forces them to share their power and limit them somewhat. Maybe worshippers/sacrifices increases their power but reduces their flexibility. We see this theme with D'rek and in tCG where some goods like Dessambrae, Nesurse look like they are stuck, beholden.

If you light a fire, Olar Ethil has a presence. Now if you make some offerings to her, she is happy to take them.
Now if bring up the same fire and effectively use it as a curse, then again she is unable to escape it.
Basically people can use fire as they wish, they can use it for good or for bad and Olar Ethil can do nothing about their intent.

Regarding changing shape, it might be that they only alter the perception of the person seeing them.
I can appear to you like this or like that but does not mean i become that.

The one thing about FoD that totally blew me away is how easily SE explained the different tiste, the Tiste Mythology and who Father Light is and all in a very consistent fashion. I was expecting Father LIght be a god or something...
I am sure at some point in the future, all of this will make a lot more sense. Until then, we can only speculate