[Defiance]

I don't know if anyone else has posted this yet, but here's something I was considering:

We know that Tulas Shorn (aka Kagamandra Tulas) tamed/bred the Hounds of Shadow. Silchas and Scabby talk about having him raise the Jhelarkan hostages. I'm sure most people caught this during the reading. Could these Jhelarkan end up being the Hounds of Shadow? Or is it just a nod to how Tulas will end up raising the actual Hounds?

Now, something that I don't know if other people caught: it's mentioned by one of the Jhelarkan, Rusk, says he's from the Derrog Clan. Alone, this wouldn't mean much, but given the foreshadowing that occurs between Tulas and the Jhelarkan pups, this really caught my eye. After all, Derrog isn't too unlike Deragoth. We know that the Derrog domesticated the Eres, who are mentioned once (maybe more) in Forge of Darkness. Could the Eres themselves (who were originally thought to be the first "human" race) have been domesticated by the Jhelarkan?

I could be way off with this, but I figured I'd share. Anyway, on to Chapter 20 to finish off the book.

[RSM616]

from reading forge of darkness i took it that the jhelarkan pups do become the hounds of shadow, however knowing Erikssons writing it could change at the drop of the hat. as for the thing about the Derrog. I missed that however its an interesting thought and could explain alot to the sentience that the Dagaroth had.

[Silk]

I took it to be that all the hounds come about, not just those of shadow as shadow has not yet arrived but light is there.....

[amphibian]

Silk, on 24 September 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I took it to be that all the hounds come about, not just those of shadow as shadow has not yet arrived but light is there.....

Which is why the Hounds of Light that were hanging out with the Shadow ones were accepted so readily - or well, with quiet suspicion.

[Silk]

The only hounds that seem to be in existence at this point of time would be the hounds of darkness... i.e the Deragoth.... not sure how but I think that hounds of darkness also come about but the Deragoth whip them into submission and they turn tail and become hounds of shadow... hence the enmity between them in later books....

[Siergiej]

Aren't Deragoth d'ivers Dessimbelackis or something like that?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Siergiej, on 27 September 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Aren't Deragoth d'ivers Dessimbelackis or something like that?

yes, but they existed before dessi's time. dessimbelackis just made a deal with the last seven and soul-shifted into their bodies. of course, by the time a walk in shadow comes along we'll KNOW that tulas and one of the jhelarkan are the parents of dessimbelackis and that dessimbelackis' own children became soletaken and lost themselves in their animal forms and then went back in time to domesticate the eres. makes perfect sense

[tiam]

While im sure the link between the Jhelerkan pups and Tulas is there im not sure we can call Deragoth just yet. They domesticated the Eres who are the forerunners to the Imass/DogRunners, who in turn gifted the jhelerkan with the ability to become soletaken. Most likely is the Deragoth already existed in some form and the Jhelerkan, seeingthe Deragoth as an excellent predator, mimicked them rather than the other way round.

[Silk]

ummm, sure thats what i said.......

Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:53 AM

The only hounds that seem to be in existence at this point of time would be the hounds of darkness... i.e the Deragoth.... not sure how but I think that hounds of darkness also come about but the Deragoth whip them into submission and they turn tail and become hounds of shadow... hence the enmity between them in later books....

[Studlock]

I got you all beat! The Jhelerkan are the Deragoth (they're big black wolf monsters that can use Soletaken magic) and those pups with Tulas become the last seven. With some sort of weird shadow magic Tulas takes their shadows from them creating the Hounds of shadow (they go from wolves to hounds. Also why it is alluded to that the Hounds of Shadows are the shadows of the Deragoth). Meanwhile those pups survive whilst the other Jhelerkan die in some future battle. They eventually teach Dessimbackis (Pretty sure I got his name wrong there) Soletaken magic. BOOM! Also the Jhelerkan that join Hood become the Hounds of Death. BOOM!

In all seriousness that wasn't really researched but it'd be fun it was right.

[Kanese S's]

I wonder if there's any connection between these Jhelarkan and Prince Jelarkan and the Jelarkan concourse in Capustan.


Also, if the kids that Scara brought in were eventually whittled down to seven and these were the hounds of shadow, would that mean that they were soletaken stuck in their beast forms like Trake was? It would someone make sense of their going through the gate of darkness in GotM, too.

[tiam]

Hopefully we see them get named which should put things into perspective.

One of them will be called Pallick no doubt

[Vengeance]

Kanese S, on 01 October 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

I wonder if there's any connection between these Jhelarkan and Prince Jelarkan and the Jelarkan concourse in Capustan.


Also, if the kids that Scara brought in were eventually whittled down to seven and these were the hounds of shadow, would that mean that they were soletaken stuck in their beast forms like Trake was? It would someone make sense of their going through the gate of darkness in GotM, too.

I think that the kids will eventually be split into the Deragoth and the hounds of light. Then Tulas somehow pulls the shadows off of the Deragoth to create the friendly pups that we have came to know and love.

[Khellendros]

I think the Jhelarkan could be potentially equated with the Deragoth. If you look at the description of their Soletaken form (massive, bear-like), it's pretty similar to the Deragoth description.

Regarding Kagamandra Tulas, anyone think he become Tulas Shorn because he is, well, Shorn? Like Trull was?


Edit: Like Trull will be.

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 02 October 2012 - 07:24 PM

[Kanese S's]

Perhaps Kagamandra will be the first shorning ever.

[champ]

Khellendros, on 02 October 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

I think the Jhelarkan could be potentially equated with the Deragoth. If you look at the description of their Soletaken form (massive, bear-like), it's pretty similar to the Deragoth description.

Regarding Kagamandra Tulas, anyone think he become Tulas Shorn because he is, well, Shorn? Like Trull was?


Edit: Like Trull will be.

It will be interesting if they do become the Deragoth with the tales of Dessimbelackis and how that would work out with their souls, conflict etc, though I doubt we will ever find out.

And that was my thoughts too, on Tulas!

[tiam]

The problem with them becoming the Deragoth is that the Eres already seemed to have gone by this time. They were OE first most sentimental choice according to her, which means nothing.

Initially I thought the Dog Runner reference was because the Imass ran with dogs in the way the Eres do with the Deragoth in the HOC Raraku memory. However according to the Castellan Rancept its because they run and hunt with the Ay, showing that domestication has already happened. Originally I believed the Deragoth are then overthrown, maybe by OE who decided to become the Imass god/patron of her created race, and then the Imass are given the gift of Soletaken,again probably by OE who is called the First Soletaken, which is gifted to the Jhelerkan, who look to be similar in species to the Imass anyway, as do the Jheck. These Jhelerkan then mimic the beast they remember as being dominant and the description we get, large, bear like, does fit the Deragoth description.

As for how they become aspected to different elements that could simlply be part of the Tiste hostage system. The Tiste split into factions, initially MD Andii and the Legionary Liossan (which turns out is a colour which made me chuckle) and then later the Edur. Its possible that this split demands that the Jhelerkan hostages are split amongst these new factions to ensure peace and so that the Jhelerkan cannot prey on one isolated fraction of the Tiste.

Rancepts comments about how it was not always Tiste land that Tulla hold is on also makes me think the Imass population was once much larger and solidified, with the Jhelerkan and Jheck being splinter groups. Its possible that the Deragoth was simply a natural native creature that was once dominant and godlike amongst the burgeoning Eres/Imass. Its even possible it was the arrival of the Tiste that split the Eres groups or ended the dominance of the Deragoth.

Very difficult to put what we know back into place after this book