[Johnny Phoenix]

So I finally finished this incredible, innovative, unique, genre-defining, cliche-destroying series. Erikson's imaginative breadth blows my mind. But I have to say, I was left with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth at the end. Let me preface this by saying that the main thing that irritates me about negative reviews about this series is people complaining about how very little is explained and how the story is confusing. Every time I read something about how the Warrens and Gods made no sense, all I thought was: "Then read the three little pigs if you do not want to think and would rather have the author hold your hand all the way through the story". However, ironically, this is my complaint about TCG. I justify this because it is the conclusion, where I expected a little more explanation than previous novels. Now most of my criticisms have already been discussed here by others, and perhaps what I am about to write about has been too, but if so I must have missed it.

Anyway here is my main problem: Tavore. Who the hell is she to have such foresight? It's been years since I read TBH and RG but as far as I remember the Bonehunters went after the Tiste Edur more or less out of revenge, it never seemed like Tavore had any knowledge of the Crippled God, or at least didn't have some master plan (all along) to defeat him. Then in DoD she is all of a sudden either some sort of prescient being, or has Oponn shoved up her ass. It seems her plan would have failed if it was not for her alliance with the Bolkando, Letherii and Perish and while she may have enough political foresight to predict that alliance there is no way she could have predicted Gesler and Stormy would become the leaders of the K'Chain Che'Malle. Unless it happened off-screen, as far as I can recall she had no real knowledge of how Mael's dagger would help her. She couldn't have known that the Otataral Dragon would be released and if it hadn't how did she plan on breaking the Crippled Gods chains (since it's mentioned her sword was not enough)? She had no clue about what her brother was up to (who ended up saving her ass). Most importantly, how did she know anything about the Crippled God? Kolanse? The Forkrul Assail? It all seems very contrived. Everything seemed to fall into place way too perfectly. Granted, I understand that she may have been simply playing it close to the chest and gambling everything on one hand, but it still seemed forced to me. What about Heboric? I also generally argue against people saying Erikson relies on Deus Ex Machina (Kruppe's scheming was hinted at all the way up to the end of GotM, as well as the Bridgeburner ascension in HoC) but come on! Mr. Ghosthands comes out of nowhere (yeah, yeah there is that tiny scene in DoD or TTH, forget which, whatever) and stops one of the most powerful beings in the world. This was so anti-climactic.

Speaking of anti-climactic, my other huge problem with this book: Icarium. Way to turn one of the most interesting (not to mention powerful) characters in the story into a fucking afterthought. This pissed me off so much. And yeah I get it, it wraps up Mappo's story. That is a weak argument to me. It was never just Mappo's story. The whole point of that plotline was their dichotomy. I know a lot of people expressed their dislike of how it ended for Mappo, and I am one of them, but how it ended for Icarium was even more upsetting. First off you get no more answers behind his mysterious past or why he is a walking nucleur bomb. Second, how can a character described throughout the series to be the baddest motherfucker on the planet, a being that every single entity (mortal, ascendant or god) fears not be given anything to do in the final book? Especially when it is hinted at that he will have a role to play in the final battle (Calm and the Otataral Dragon). I wasn't necessarily expecting him to rage out because I understand the flaw in taking the story in that direction (apocalypse and whatnot) but I thought he would be kind of like the bomb at the end of an action movie where the protagonist has to race to diffuse it before it blows. Erikson might as well have ended his story in DoD.

In conclusion I'll say I was still satisfied with this book, but I do feel like Erikson made it too complex in the beginning and could not conclude it logically in the end.

[Defiance]

Tavore got her knowledge offscreen from Shadowthrone and Cotillion. We don't know exactly when and where they met, but this is revealed during The Crippled God. I don't remember quite when the scene takes place, but I believe Lostara Yil is in Tavore's tent and finds a Talon necklace. She's a child of the emperor. Some people might try to refute this given Paran and Shadowthrone's conversation at the beginning of The Crippled God (something along the lines of "did you two plan this shit?!?!"), but this does not refute the idea that Tavore has contact with the rulers of the Shadow Realm. Instead, it just further shows just how closed off Tavore is. She has the necessary information from Shadowthrone and Cotillion, but in terms of how she's going to handle things no one, not even the gods themselves, know exactly what's on her mind.

We know Heboric has been very important for awhile. Recall his role during The Bonehunters and what he learned of the Jade Strangers during House of Chains. Granted, this didn't fully lay out what his power was going to be used for in the end, but personally I feel that it laid out enough groundwork for it.

I can understand the complaint about Icarium. I was surprised that he was never unleashed during the climax. I didn't feel cheated for it, though. I thought his arc was resolved beautifully (although it was damn tragic, Mappo dying right as he finds Icarium was heartbreaking). Deadhouse Gates begins with Icarium and Mappo as companions. Icarium knows nothing of himself yet Mappo knows everything. The Crippled God ends with Icarium and Ublala as companions. Icarium is finally starting to remember things about himself and this time it's his companion that knows nothing about him. I found that to be really poetic. Also, it is explained how Icarium is basically a walking time bomb at least once during the series - he attempted to free his father, Gothos, from an Azath. He nearly killed the Azath and caused the sundering of Kurald Emurhlan (well, to be fair, it was already fucked up before Icarium, if I recall correctly he was just the catalyst that pushed the realm over the edge). Doing this caused a fragment of chaos to be lodged within him. As chaos is anethma to order, any time Icarium's rage was awakened (the thing that caused him to nearly kill an Azath), all of his memories are washed away.

[Aptorian]

I don't recall Shadowthrone and Cots being mentioned as having contact with Tavore but we do know that the Eres was feeding Tavore information through T'amber. That's where the plan really came from as far as I understand.

[Johnny Phoenix]

I don't remember Tavore being in contact with Shadowthrone and Cotillion or the Eres. I'm not saying you guys are wrong, especially with the Eres thing because like I said, I read the Bonehunters almost three years ago. I did love how everything ended up connecting back to Shadowthrone and Cotillion and the Malazan Empire, truly making it the Malazan Book of the Fallen. Well if it was through the Eres or Shadowthrone and Cotillion, I still feel like the alliance with the other political factions (without whom Tavore would have surely failed), the use of Korabas to shatter the Crippled Gods chains and Heboric's role still seem contrived to me. Though I guess it could be argued that Tavore would have proceeded with a suicide mission had the other political powers not allied themselves to her cause. After all, if the world was going to end anyway, why not die fighting?

Also, on the matter of Korabas, what exactly were Errastas and gang hoping to accomplish? I understand they wanted the warrens to die to make way for a resurrection of their own power but it seems if Korabas won it would be more than the warrens that would be dead, the whole world would be left a barren, scorched wasteland. Besides, were they foolish enough to think that Korabas alone could stop every Eleint ever including T'iam? If anything it would have been even worse for them if the Eleint took over the world.

Another thing that bugs me is why the whole mess fell to Tavores feet alone. You'd think with the fate of the human species at stake measures would have been taken by the Gods to alert other civilizations throughout the world about this threat. Though it could be argued that other societies would not believe them or would be too self-absorbed to care. Then again Tavore obviously wasn't the only human with integrity.

As for Icarium, I agree with everything you said, Defiance, but I highly doubt anything will change my opinion on the matter. He should have had a more important role. I was actually expecting way more destruction to occur in a book described as being apocalyptic. Anomander Rake got to duel Dassem Ultor and save the universe in the process, Karsa got all kinds of epic moments throughout the series, but Icarium was given nothing (aside from randomly creating an Azath in DoD). I'll admit I was touched when he said he remembered something, but I wanted more than just a character-based conclusion. And was it Icarium that shattered Emerlahn? I thought that it was shattered during the conflicts between the Kurald's. If he did, and if it was that shattering that caused him to become so powerful through Chaos, how did he shatter it to begin with? He wouldn't have been as powerful before that would he?

I really don't mean to bitch so much but it's just that I really, REALLY love this series, and I want the nagging itch I have about the ending to go away.

[Siergiej]

Quote

I don't remember Tavore being in contact with Shadowthrone and Cotillion or the Eres

It's never said in any straightforward way that she was. But it is strongly implied through The Crippled God. Especially by the fact that they're ultimately working together

[Puck]

Tavore was, first and foremost, a scholar. She didn't only know everything about imperial campaigns and strategies, she also knew everything there was to know (for a human scholar) about the FA and most likely other things as well*. And, equally important, she had compassion for the CG, whose heart was being fed on by various gods, which is why they didn't want anyone to either kill or free him and to thus lose a source of power. The heart, though, had been usurped by the FA and the gods found themselves in catch-22; they wanted to keep sipping the CG's power but were in danger of losing that power source and most of them were rather ineffectual when it came to setting things in motion. Enter Shadowthrone and Cotillion who wanted to secure their position in the pantheon and getting rid of the CG was a good way to do so.
As to Tavore, the compassion that was her most defining characteristic but which she made a point of hiding from everyone else, and probably also the information she got through T'amber (and maybe a nudge from ST and Cots, as she was most likely a talon herself, in some way) made her devise a plan to free the CG. She probably expected it to be a suicide mission from the very start but considered it better than doing nothing, and thus she was so reluctant to accept allies and only when Ges and Stormy became the commanders of the KCCM was there some sliver of hope.
Also, she had the plan from the very start (according to herself from the day 'the Paran family lost its only son', and I think she also wanted to make up for what happened to Felisin, in her very own way). The invasion of Lether to take revenge on the Edur was only a front, she had intended to use Lether as a starting point to march to Kolanse. Maybe her original plans had been different as in employing the help of the Malazan Empire for what she intended to do but the events at Malaz Island in tBH forced her to change them, who knows.. What's important is that the intention had been there from the very start, as well as ST's and Cots's scheming.

*Don't believe me? Here we go:
[tCG, p. 200 in the HC)

Quote

She blinked, and then said, 'I have spent three years amidst the archives of Unta, Stormy. Reading the oldest and obscurest histories drawn to the capital from the further reaches of the Malazan Empire. I have interviewed the finest scholars I could find, including Heboric Light-Touch, on matters of fragmented references to the Forkrul Assail.' She hesitated, and then continued. 'I know what awaits us all, Shield Anvil. The three human armies you now see marching into the southeast are… vulnerable.'

So some of her information does not come from sources as mytical as we might think, and instead from such mundane sources like old history fragments and scholastic writings.


Just my 2 cents I wanted to add upon reading this thread. Not done with my tCG reread yet, so I'm sure I can dig up some more quotes on this, as I remember there have to be some.

This post has been edited by Puck: 14 September 2012 - 11:01 AM

[Studlock]

As said upthread Tavore most likely got her information from T'Amber via our favourite time-traveling homo erectus. As for Icarium I am of the complete opposite to you. For me he was always interesting because of his character not his power and would of been disappointed if say, he unleashed Chaos on everyone BUT didn't have his story come full circle (him, as I read it, remembering Mappo) because to me he is a classical tragic character (which now that I think about it his name does sound like Icarus, and his story is similar) whose whole appeal is not is awesome power but his sad, and unending existence.

[D'rek]

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

So I finally finished this incredible, innovative, unique, genre-defining, cliche-destroying series. Erikson's imaginative breadth blows my mind.

So admitting that the series is "cliche-destroying" and that you like that...

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

but I thought he would be kind of like the bomb at the end of an action movie where the protagonist has to race to diffuse it before it blows.

...you wish that the final book had included the mother of all cliche stories???

---

As for Tavore, you completely miss the point. Actually, you miss ALL THE POINTS

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

It's been years since I read TBH and RG but as far as I remember the Bonehunters went after the Tiste Edur more or less out of revenge

Perhaps in those years you've forgotten much of them? Everyone with half a brain in her army has a thought along the lines of "Revenge for Sepik? We're not even part of the empire anymore. Invading the Edur for revenge makes no sense, this is clearly just Tavore's excuse, hiding a deeper motive." and her close retinue (Blistig, Losatara, etc) speculate even more, knowing she's been having secret discussion with Withal.

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

it never seemed like Tavore had any knowledge of the Crippled God, or at least didn't have some master plan (all along) to defeat him.

Yes she did, as others have pointed out above. In the Bonehunters, she sends Bottle to get Withal and is distraught when he doesn't make it back with him, and there are other signs that go back even further.

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Then in DoD she is all of a sudden either some sort of prescient being, or has Oponn shoved up her ass. It seems her plan would have failed if it was not for her alliance with the Bolkando, Letherii and Perish and while she may have enough political foresight to predict that alliance there is no way she could have predicted Gesler and Stormy would become the leaders of the K'Chain Che'Malle.

You seem to want her to either be capable of predicting EVERYTHING or NOTHING, but life isn't so simple. She knew a lot, but not everything. She sent the Perish to Bolkando early as part of the plan (hence them missing in RG), but she didn't necessarily know for sure that a regiment of Bolkando would join up, or that the K'Chain Che'malle would, either. Letherii support was certainly planned, hence "liberating" that empire in the first place. But she also couldn't foresee the Nahruk being nudged into her, cutting the Bonehunter and Khundryl numbers drastically. Whether none of these things happened and solely the bonehunters and Khundryl were to invade Kolanse, or all of them, or some, she would have tried no matter what. Would she have succeeded without the K'Chain Che'malle? Probably not, but she still would have tried.

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Unless it happened off-screen, as far as I can recall she had no real knowledge of how Mael's dagger would help her.

Why do you expect to see her saying to someone "Don't forget about that Mael dagger, it will rejuvenate dried out springs if I slash myself with it but I'm saving it for when we're halfway there!" when she can just DO THAT and you SEE HER DOING EXACTLY THAT. She doesn't show any inkling of even thinking of using it until they are half-way through the Glass Desert (needing to fill the casks then so they can get back out through the other half) and then knows precisely what to do with it, even if it hurts. So yes, she very much had real knowledge of how Mael's dagger would help her.

How does she know? She's a scholar. Remember in tBH when she faced down Mallick Rel and showed she knew quite a bit about the Jhistal priesthood? Well this dagger is obviously an Elder implement for a ritual blood-letting - it's the Elder God way, shed some blood for your god and get something back. Not that it's very hard to deduce what sacrificing some blood to an Elder God of the SEAS will get you...

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

She couldn't have known that the Otataral Dragon would be released and if it hadn't how did she plan on breaking the Crippled Gods chains (since it's mentioned her sword was not enough)?

Obviously she did know the OD was being released, because she shoved her Otataral sword into the barrow to direct the OD to that position so it would free the CG.

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

She had no clue about what her brother was up to (who ended up saving her ass).

Again, that's exactly the point. Tavore thought she was taking her small remaining regulars against a humongously larger foe and therefore a certain failure. There was lots and lots of lead-up to this - many characters "seeing the end" like Fiddler after his reading or Deadsmell after healing her. Tavore and her force were making an elaborate suicide to stall the larger force from reaching and overrunning the marines at the Barrow. Ganoes coming and saving her was never part of her calculations, never part of her plan, because, as you say, she had no clue what he was up to.

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Most importantly, how did she know anything about the Crippled God? Kolanse? The Forkrul Assail?

As others have pointed out up-thread, she had numerous sources (QB, T'amber, Heboric, Apsalar, Banachar, potentially ST/Cot long ago), plus her own research, all of which is indicated throughout the books.

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

It all seems very contrived. Everything seemed to fall into place way too perfectly. Granted, I understand that she may have been simply playing it close to the chest and gambling everything on one hand, but it still seemed forced to me. What about Heboric? I also generally argue against people saying Erikson relies on Deus Ex Machina (Kruppe's scheming was hinted at all the way up to the end of GotM, as well as the Bridgeburner ascension in HoC) but come on! Mr. Ghosthands comes out of nowhere (yeah, yeah there is that tiny scene in DoD or TTH, forget which, whatever) and stops one of the most powerful beings in the world. This was so anti-climactic.

And we come full circle:

Johnny Phoenix, on 14 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Let me preface this by saying that the main thing that irritates me about negative reviews about this series is people complaining about how very little is explained and how the story is confusing. Every time I read something about how the Warrens and Gods made no sense, all I thought was: "Then read the three little pigs if you do not want to think and would rather have the author hold your hand all the way through the story". However, ironically, this is my complaint about TCG.

It's not ironic, it's silly. Basically, you need a re-read, because everything is there, you just didn't pick up on it. Some things will never be explained - ie we will never know for sure Tavore's motivations, how linked she was to ST/Cot, if at all, when she started this whole thing, etc, because she is akin to the Malazan world's Alexander, a profound impact on the world who will ever remain a mystery. But there is lots of the explanations you crave in there if you pay enough attention to see it.

[worry]

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling (maybe she should change her name to Sinn).

Also, leave it to D'rek not to forget Banaschar, who is a) drunk as hell, cynical as hell, c) kept around by Tavore for a reason as hell. It weren't just for his riches, if she never expected herself or her troops to survive in the fist place.

[Crow Clan Baby]

The very first words spoken by any character in this book are: "I have no intention of explaining a damned thing". Take it from there.

[Johnny Phoenix]

D'rek's hostile condescension notwithstanding, I thank you all for shedding some light on my concerns. While I am still not completely satisfied with the explanations given, a huge chunk of my criticism related to Tavore has been extinguished. As for Icarium, like I said, nothing is changing my mind about that. Thanks again everyone.

This post has been edited by Johnny Phoenix: 15 September 2012 - 07:48 AM

[BarbecueCougar]

I was disappointed too with the ending, but for other reasons. I just think that Erikson missed to chance to have one of the best holy shit moments of the entire series- Tavore should have stabbed Paran at the end, not knowing it was him. It would have mirrored the ending of HoC and would have been one of the great, pointless, tragic Malazan deaths.

[Siergiej]

I swear I would have drowned in tears.

[LinearPhilosopher]

BarbecueCougar, on 16 September 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I was disappointed too with the ending, but for other reasons. I just think that Erikson missed to chance to have one of the best holy shit moments of the entire series- Tavore should have stabbed Paran at the end, not knowing it was him. It would have mirrored the ending of HoC and would have been one of the great, pointless, tragic Malazan deaths.

how would that even occur though?

[BarbecueCougar]

BalrogLord, on 16 September 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

BarbecueCougar, on 16 September 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I was disappointed too with the ending, but for other reasons. I just think that Erikson missed to chance to have one of the best holy shit moments of the entire series- Tavore should have stabbed Paran at the end, not knowing it was him. It would have mirrored the ending of HoC and would have been one of the great, pointless, tragic Malazan deaths.

how would that even occur though?

Sorry, I only read the book once when it first came out so maybe I'm misremembering, but doesn't Paran come up behind her at the end of the battle, and she goes to attack him without looking...? I just remember thinking "Nooooo!". But to honest, when I look back at the entire series, all the moments that have really stuck with me have been the tragic deaths (Coltaine, Whiskeyjack, Trull, etc.). Think that one would have topped them all.

[Orlion]

What we have here is a classic case of authorial intent vs. reader expectation. Taken as a whole, everything fits. Even in the face of apocalypse, the resolutions and plot will be character driven because that is what it has been since Gardens of the Moon.

Further, our expectations can blind us to authorial intent, disappointing us because we did not get the results we would have written. For example, Icarium. Sure, it may make for mindless excitement to see him blow some stuff up, but where does that fit in storywise? People would want to prevent that instory much like they would want to prevent the Pures from using Kaminsod's heart: in other words, "unleashing Icarium" is something our protaginists would want to avoid... he's kinda like Kaminsod where he is a force some people want to use and others want to prevent from being used.

Further, I think we need to remember that the Bonehunters expected to fail... at everything. They would be attempting to do the right thing and would be destroyed by it. No one would even remember their sacrifice. Tavore's plans did not succeed because she was a master tactician that could forsee the future, they succeeded because it turned out other people wanted to do the right thing as well. Other people very capable and also able to assemble other aspects Tavore's plan was missing. Not even Rake's plan to save the universe would have worked if others who believed in that plan weren't on hand to make up for the weaknesses inherent in Rake's tactics.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

BarbecueCougar, on 16 September 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I was disappointed too with the ending, but for other reasons. I just think that Erikson missed to chance to have one of the best holy shit moments of the entire series- Tavore should have stabbed Paran at the end, not knowing it was him. It would have mirrored the ending of HoC and would have been one of the great, pointless, tragic Malazan deaths.

Honestly I think that would be so absurd as to be hilarious; I can't think of a way it could have been pulled off that wouldn't inherently have been really silly, and even though my heart did stop for a moment when it nearly happened, I really think it would have stupid to have it do so. All tragedy would be ushered out of the window in the face of a series of mental farcical skits. Lostara combing Tavore's hair only to tear an artery on a split end and die. Family members coming into the room to offer Tavore a cup of tea, only for her to jerk out of a nap and accidentally impale them with a pen. Quick Ben stepping out of a warren, tripping over Tavore's foot and falling off a cliff. Tavore stumbling at the funeral scene at the finale, cutting herself with Mael's dagger and drowning the entire cast of survivors.

[Overactive Imagination]

I thought TCG was perfect. Actually, more stuff got explained than I expected going into it.

[Shal-morzinn]

I was slightly disappointed as well with tCG. One of my main complaints is all the romantic reunion of couples in the end (lets see Korlat and Whiskeyjack, Tool and Hetan, Cutter and Apsalar, Hellian and Urb, might as well add Ublala and Ralata). Even Olar Ethil had romantic feelings towards Tool, which were probably the motivations behind her actions throughout DoD and tCG. I think such a and-then-they-lived-happily-ever-after ending is completely at odds with endings of all the other books in the series. True, some characters suffered tragic deaths, but the overall thumping victory of the Malazans seemed a bit contrived and artificial. Consider that not a single army on the side of the Bonehunters was completely annihilated, in spite of all the gods and FA and KCCM and dragons involvement. While in DoD, just the stepping of Draconus into the mortal world completely annihilated the Akkrynnai and Barghast armies.

Coming to Tavore and her extremely ambitious plan, I think that the involvement of KCCM as allies and the unchaining of Korabas were two extremely important events responsible for the eventual victory of the Malazans. We know that Stormy was shield anvil of the KCCM way back in tBH (well, we knew that he was shield anvil of something), and hence it is possible that Tavore was also aware of this. Through her studies, she also might have conjectured that the only surviving KCCM were somewhere in the Wastelands, and this may be the reason why she possibly expected the help of KCCM in her plan. Coming to the unchaining of Korabas, there is no way Tavore could have known this beforehand and included it in her plan, and she admits this herself, when she says she expected the otataral sword to be enough to unchain the crippled god.

This post has been edited by Shal-morzinn: 01 July 2013 - 12:27 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Cuttle didn't live happily ever after. Neither did Stormy or Gesler. I think it would have been silly to expect that none of the Bonehunters lived on to have productive and somewhat fulfilling lives. Its the Book of the Fallen, but not all have fallen.

Quote

Through her studies, she also might have conjectured that the only surviving KCCM were somewhere in the Wastelands, and this may be the reason why she possibly expected the help of KCCM in her plan.

This is perhaps true, but I don't think it would matter. She was going to Kolanse with an achin' in her heart. I believe she would have gone there alone if the Bonehunters refused. Also, I still think she was somehow in communication with ST and Cots. I cannot believe for an instant that those two would have not reached out to her and involved her in their schemes in some way, especially considering how closely alligned their plans are.