[EmperorMagus]

Meanwhile in Iran :

I have to make my peace with this

[Tapper]

@ Amph: regarding the issue of anti-American feelings:

I'm sure US cultural imperialism may play a part but it doesn't really hit the Middle East that badly.
It is true that the age of Imperialism (whether British, French, Russian or Ottoman) caused much of today's damage and all of yesteryear's issues, but collective memory is short. Especially if/when your population is predominantly below 30.

They probably don't consciously take former European dominance into account, apart perhaps from say, an Algerian being more likely to emigrate to France than he is to Britain.
In fact, family and friends living in the colonisators' nation may actually soften the opinion.

Add to that the fact that Britain and France have withdrawn their control for over 50 years now, and how that can be interpreted as throwing off their yoke as colonizing nations.

Connected to that argument: the French Foreign Legion and the British Army/Navy occassionally make a show of force (even if only to evacuate Westerners) in their former colonial possessions in Mid/Southern Africa (and much to my surprise, in the Libyan revolt). Britain is one of the strongest protestors against Mugabe, through the Commonwealth.
When it comes to the Middle East and the northern African countries, the Suez crisis was the last time when the Euro powers acted on their own (well, actually, Libya might have been, at least partly, since Sarkozy was one of the frontrunners for intervention) and they were then whistled back by the US.

Instead, the EU nations usually convey their displeasure through quiet diplomatic channels or the summoning of an ambassador instead of sending the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower. That's quite a difference And "we" appear to be less black-and-white compared to the US on the region's most pressing geopolitical concern: Israel.

No matter how pro-American a regime may be, Israel is enough to get their panties in a bunch. Netanyahu has done very little to ease the clenching of collective buttocks in the past decade on top of that.

[Tapper]

Obdigore, on 19 September 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

And apparently the French (or some of them) feel that drawing who they want how they want is a right.

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t1

I'm interested in seeing if the French Embassies get attacked as well.

That particular magazine has already been bombed with molotov cocktails in the past, and has been the target of state lawsuits quite a few times. They're not scared off easily.

Also, they don't necessarily depict Allah or Muhammed, although that is nitpicking.

But yeah, one could predict riots of the scale of when the Jyllands-Posten published the infamous turban-bomb picure. Perhaps worse, considering the large muslim minority in France: they may run riot in Paris again. Not sure if they'll be the target of attacks abroad. Could happen, could not. Maybe French Fries will be renamed to Freedom Fries at the local McD depandance, or something.

Then again, even though there are quite a few muslims living in Europe, all was quiet in the Netherlands at the time of the turban cartoon. Unless you count fifty demonstrants as a disturbance. It's much easier to avoid having to be outraged if your government doesn't force you to.

[Kanese S's]

EmperorMagus, on 19 September 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Meanwhile in Iran :

I have to make my peace with this

Oh for fuck's sake. There seems to be this perception there that we, as an entire people, conspired to make that stupid video, when really it was some random wingnut who did.

*sigh*

Oh well.

[worry]

Well, I'm sure the Internet in Iran is filtered through government channels, and their leaders obviously spin it (that article is explicit on that front re: the Ayatollah). And it still says they're protesting the film itself. Also, the movie's not exactly out there besides the trailer, and most of the anger about that is word of mouth...why wouldn't they assume it's a full-fledged Hollywood enterprise if that's how it's been reported to them?

[Gnaw]

Tapper, on 19 September 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

@ Amph: regarding the issue of anti-American feelings:

I'm sure US cultural imperialism may play a part but it doesn't really hit the Middle East that badly.
It is true that the age of Imperialism (whether British, French, Russian or Ottoman) caused much of today's damage and all of yesteryear's issues, but collective memory is short. Especially if/when your population is predominantly below 30.

They probably don't consciously take former European dominance into account, apart perhaps from say, an Algerian being more likely to emigrate to France than he is to Britain.
In fact, family and friends living in the colonisators' nation may actually soften the opinion.

Connected to that argument: the French Foreign Legion and the British Army/Navy occassionally make a show of force (even if only to evacuate Westerners) in their former colonial possessions in Mid/Southern Africa (and much to my surprise, in the Libyan revolt). Britain is one of the strongest protestors against Mugabe, through the Commonwealth.
When it comes to the Middle East and the northern African countries, the Suez crisis was the last time when the Euro powers acted on their own (well, actually, Libya might have been, at least partly, since Sarkozy was one of the frontrunners for intervention) and they were then whistled back by the US.

No matter how pro-American a regime may be, Israel is enough to get their panties in a bunch. Netanyahu has done very little to ease the clenching of collective buttocks in the past decade on top of that.

I tend to strongly agree with the opinion that colonialism per se is not an issue for the average person. But it's mighty useful for those in power as a rallying cry.

I would like to point out though that the Brits have stuck their fingers into that region much more often than is commonly believed. The Special Air Service was in Yemen in the mid to late 60s and seemingly used their involvement in Oman in the early 70s as a live fire exercise before sending members to Northern Ireland. And Cyprus, though I'm not certain if Cyprus counts as the Middle East in contemporary geo-political sense. And my understanding of the events in Libya is that the SAS was in almost from the start, with the French providing the air, and the US paying for a big chunk of it. But I could be very wrong on that; I'm weak on North Africa and almost completely ignorant of Sub-Saharan Africa.
Netanyahu makes me really sorry that Sharon had a stroke. Sharon had lots and lots of blood on his hands but it appeared as if he had finally figured out that you simply cannot shoot people until they like you. Now I just wish that a few more of my fellow Americans would recognize that. In the meanwhile, the whole goddamned mess just proves that when the state and religion intersect strongly, religion (arguably) always ends up a tool of the state.

[Gnaw]

EmperorMagus, on 19 September 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Meanwhile in Iran :

I have to make my peace with this

I'm sure that I'm missing a nuance in your comment. All I'm seeing is that, for the moment, the "official" policy is to have students say an extra prayer? That is only a step or two more 'violent' than yawning after a scowl at the offending person, object, film, etc.
So what is the nuance I'm not understanding?

[Tapper]

Gnaw, on 20 September 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 19 September 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Meanwhile in Iran :

I have to make my peace with this

I'm sure that I'm missing a nuance in your comment. All I'm seeing is that, for the moment, the "official" policy is to have students say an extra prayer? That is only a step or two more 'violent' than yawning after a scowl at the offending person, object, film, etc.
So what is the nuance I'm not understanding?

You're being forced into a gesture you don't believe in/by an institution you don't believe in (the government), which can easily be construed as support of the religious regime which rules Iran. It is also very easily used for propaganda. Not partaking, furthermore, out of principle or just because you're not behind the cause, can be dangerous. In a sense, if this were a rule in a democracy, I guess it is no more "dangerous" or "patriotic" than saluting the flag or singing the national anthem before class (which, to me, as a Northern Euro, is already not merely patriotic but downright nationalistic).
It is however not a democratic gesture and considering the fact that much of the Iranian opposition consists of young academics, it is particularly degrading of that group.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 20 September 2012 - 09:07 PM

[Vengeance]

EmperorMagus, on 19 September 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Meanwhile in Iran :

I have to make my peace with this

Sucks Magus

[Vengeance]

Gnaw, on 20 September 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 19 September 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Meanwhile in Iran :

I have to make my peace with this

I'm sure that I'm missing a nuance in your comment. All I'm seeing is that, for the moment, the "official" policy is to have students say an extra prayer? That is only a step or two more 'violent' than yawning after a scowl at the offending person, object, film, etc.
So what is the nuance I'm not understanding?

Think of it like this. You voted for Gore in 2000 but Bush won. You rioted and marched. Things calmed down but it was clear that you didn't support the reguim. The Uss Cole is Bombed. To show solidarity a law is passed saying that everyone in school must stand up and say the pledge to the flag and then promise to support the president. Of course you already say the pledge because your school is like that but now you have to say it at the beginning of every class. You don't support the President but now if you don't stand up and say the stupid pledge and promise to support the president someone will rat on you, and you will be visited by people who are going to ask why you don't like America and if your a terrorist.

You say that can't happen here. Well it can in his country and to be subjugated to that sucks.

This post has been edited by Vengeance: 20 September 2012 - 09:20 PM

[EmperorMagus]

Tapper, on 20 September 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 20 September 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 19 September 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Meanwhile in Iran :

I have to make my peace with this

I'm sure that I'm missing a nuance in your comment. All I'm seeing is that, for the moment, the "official" policy is to have students say an extra prayer? That is only a step or two more 'violent' than yawning after a scowl at the offending person, object, film, etc.
So what is the nuance I'm not understanding?

You're being forced into a gesture you don't believe in/by an institution you don't believe in (the government), which can easily be construed as support of the religious regime which rules Iran. It is also very easily used for propaganda. Not partaking, furthermore, out of principle or just because you're not behind the cause, can be dangerous. In a sense, if this were a rule in a democracy, I guess it is no more "dangerous" or "patriotic" than saluting the flag or singing the national anthem before class (which, to me, as a Northern Euro, is already not merely patriotic but downright nationalistic).
It is however not a democratic gesture and considering the fact that much of the Iranian opposition consists of young academics, it is particularly degrading of that group.

This . and the fact that students & employees of government are forced to march to what they don't believe in .(In 36 degrees C ) and are facing threats of being expelled if they don't comply. (I know a guy who was expelled last year of his college because of running an anti government blog . )

btw , you try hearing this same thing (or variants of it ) 3 times a day a week or so and we will see If you don't get annoyed . anyway , I was not so annoyed at the notion of Azan but at the propaganda itself . Which borders on myth .( News is implying that there will be a riot [for the love of god!] Saturday in paris .)

This post has been edited by EmperorMagus: 20 September 2012 - 09:43 PM

[Gnaw]

Yes ma'am and sir. I understand the "forced to do things" I apologize to magus if I left the impression that I don't.
I mentally skipped over that part because west from Iran's border for the next several hundred miles, not protesting in the streets can get you dead. Or worse. (Yes, I do believe there are things worse than dead.).
What I meant by nuanced was that even by Persian standards the one day protest is not only mild, but surprisingly so (to me). And I fully realize that magus lives in a society where he has to consider who else might be reading his posts. Hence, the I'm missing something here comment.
I despise the levels of willful ignorance in my country. And I really dislike when I make I make comments that put me in their category. Again, magus, apologies.

[EmperorMagus]

Gnaw, on 20 September 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

What I meant by nuanced was that even by Persian standards the one day protest is not only mild, but surprisingly so (to me).

No need for apologies .


What do you mean by surprisingly mild ? I'm just curious what is a harsh reaction in your opinion.

[Gnaw]

EmperorMagus, on 20 September 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 20 September 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

What I meant by nuanced was that even by Persian standards the one day protest is not only mild, but surprisingly so (to me).

No need for apologies .


What do you mean by surprisingly mild ? I'm just curious what is a harsh reaction in your opinion.

The majority of the 'official' protests that I've seen over recent years have been people walking, carrying signs, yelling chants, etc. Nothing violent. A few hours out marching. (Again, I am aware of the fact the protesters are there against their will.). By that standard, having the students and faculty gather in front of the schools and shout slogans and an extra prayer is mild. Surprisingly so, since I would have expected, in the case of this film at least a repeat of previous levels of protest, not a toning down.

In response to the recent US-made film insulting the prophet of Islam, Iranian students will chant the slogan that 'Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the messenger of God' on the first day of the new school year.

Hossein Hojabri, a deputy of the Iranian minister of education, said that the Azan, which is the Islamic call to prayers and includes the statement 'I testify that Muhammad (PBUH) is the messenger of Allah', will also be called out from the loudspeakers of schools during prayer times by selected muezzin students.

My understanding of those two paragraphs is the students are to show up, shout awhile, and then go on about the day. I wouldn't have been surprised at a "students refuse to take to classes for two days so they can protest the recent anti Islam film" type of enforced participation activity.

Maybe I should have used "toned down" or "tepid" instead of 'mild'.

[EmperorMagus]

Gnaw, on 20 September 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 20 September 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 20 September 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

What I meant by nuanced was that even by Persian standards the one day protest is not only mild, but surprisingly so (to me).

No need for apologies .


What do you mean by surprisingly mild ? I'm just curious what is a harsh reaction in your opinion.

The majority of the 'official' protests that I've seen over recent years have been people walking, carrying signs, yelling chants
, etc. Nothing violent. A few hours out marching. (Again, I am aware of the fact the protesters are there against their will.). By that standard, having the students and faculty gather in front of the schools and shout slogans and an extra prayer is mild. Surprisingly so, since I would have expected, in the case of this film at least a repeat of previous levels of protest, not a toning down.

In response to the recent US-made film insulting the prophet of Islam, Iranian students will chant the slogan that 'Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the messenger of God' on the first day of the new school year.

Hossein Hojabri, a deputy of the Iranian minister of education, said that the Azan, which is the Islamic call to prayers and includes the statement 'I testify that Muhammad (PBUH) is the messenger of Allah', will also be called out from the loudspeakers of schools during prayer times by selected muezzin students.

My understanding of those two paragraphs is the students are to show up, shout awhile, and then go on about the day. I wouldn't have been surprised at a "students refuse to take to classes for two days so they can protest the recent anti Islam film" type of enforced participation activity.

Maybe I should have used "toned down" or "tepid" instead of 'mild'.

They have done that too . no worries . this on affects me directly so got me worked up.

[Kanese S's]

worrywort, on 20 September 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

Well, I'm sure the Internet in Iran is filtered through government channels, and their leaders obviously spin it (that article is explicit on that front re: the Ayatollah). And it still says they're protesting the film itself. Also, the movie's not exactly out there besides the trailer, and most of the anger about that is word of mouth...why wouldn't they assume it's a full-fledged Hollywood enterprise if that's how it's been reported to them?

Oh, I know. The people of Iran are being lied to, as usual. It's just that, while I know that my government/country has done many terrible things, it's frustrating to be blamed for something that the government and country at large pretty much had nothing to do with.

[Gust Hubb]

How do people have the time to kill and protest? I'm busy all the time and most certainly don't have time to get out there and yell and scream. This is very frustrating to watch. Makes me think people need more video games and/or good books to keep them occupied.

[Kanese S's]

Gust Hubb, on 21 September 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

How do people have the time to kill and protest? I'm busy all the time and most certainly don't have time to get out there and yell and scream. This is very frustrating to watch. Makes me think people need more video games and/or good books to keep them occupied.

You have time to do a lot of things when unemployed/underemployed.

[Gnaw]

Gust Hubb said:

1348226947[/url]' post='996029']
How do people have the time to kill and protest? I'm busy all the time and most certainly don't have time to get out there and yell and scream. This is very frustrating to watch. Makes me think people need more video games and/or good books to keep them occupied.

When the state can take things away from you if you don't yell and scream (such as your enrollment status, your employment status, your residential status, your oxygen intake ability) you have a strong incentive to clear your schedule whenever they wish you to do so.

[worry]

Libyans storm an extremist compound and evict the militiamen, pretty cool: http://www.contracos...test-attack-u-s