[Dream Theater]

I have been reading at a glacial pace which is a real shame. But I got through 100 or so pages this weekend and I'm just struggling to understand some things. I have no doubt that some of my questions will have major spoilers if answered, so please feel free to tell me to read on. Also, there are some later-in-Chain of Dogs spoilers in my questions

1. I am struggling to fully understand Icarium. First off, he seems to be one of the most billy badass guys around. I just read the section where he and Mappo, Crokus and Fiddler are looking at those seven scorpion thrones and how they had been badly thrashed by someone really powerful (i.e. Icarium). It is mentioned that when he really loses control, he is capable of wiping clean entire cities if not maybe even continents. Huh? How? I think he is only half Jaghut, I've not heard of him yet accessing a warren, a solid clout to the head from Mappo seems to knock him out cold (whereas an entity capable of crushing entire masses of people would likely not fall to a simple blow to the head). How is it this guy is so damned tough. One other element. We know his Jaghut blood cannot be THAT potent. By what I am trying to piece together, arguably the most unstoppable force if truly unleashed is the T'lan Imass. First, they are nearly immortal and indestructible it seems. They are one of the Elder Warrens/Races. They more or less themselves killed nearly all the Jaghut. I THINK that crazy dragon that is in the warren that is supposed to be significantly larger than even Anomander Rake is a Bonecaster (though I have no understanding of how that whole concept - bonecasters seem to simply be the mages of the T'lan Imass but....one of them is a uh...dragon?)

2. Also on the note of Icarium, and I am certain this will be a "read on" question - but what in the sam hell is wrong with his memory and why is Mappo so dedicated to stopping him from discovering his memories? Are we supposed to believe that if he figures out that he ruined all those empires in the past that he'll lose it and go nuts again?

3. I think I simply misread something. There is a scene where Felisin, Heboric and that mage (cant remember his name) are in some really old caverns and some really fat dude with some servants shows up. For some reason (maybe only because he was fat but I could have sworn there was something else) I thought that was Kruppe for a minute. But then he turns out to be a D'ivers - apparently Gryllen - as he turns into a bunch of rats. Can anyone set me straight on this?

I cannot believe that a human could conceptualize and execute a story like this. There simply is no other story i've ever encountered that is even a 1/4th as complex as Malazan. The foreshadowing, the use of vague language that denotes so much more than it immediately reveals, the number of characters. I am beginning to suspect that Erikson is not human.

[D'rek]

Dream Theater, on 10 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

I have been reading at a glacial pace which is a real shame. But I got through 100 or so pages this weekend and I'm just struggling to understand some things. I have no doubt that some of my questions will have major spoilers if answered, so please feel free to tell me to read on. Also, there are some later-in-Chain of Dogs spoilers in my questions

1. I am struggling to fully understand Icarium. First off, he seems to be one of the most billy badass guys around. I just read the section where he and Mappo, Crokus and Fiddler are looking at those seven scorpion thrones and how they had been badly thrashed by someone really powerful (i.e. Icarium). It is mentioned that when he really loses control, he is capable of wiping clean entire cities if not maybe even continents. Huh? How? I think he is only half Jaghut, I've not heard of him yet accessing a warren, a solid clout to the head from Mappo seems to knock him out cold (whereas an entity capable of crushing entire masses of people would likely not fall to a simple blow to the head). How is it this guy is so damned tough. One other element. We know his Jaghut blood cannot be THAT potent. By what I am trying to piece together, arguably the most unstoppable force if truly unleashed is the T'lan Imass. First, they are nearly immortal and indestructible it seems. They are one of the Elder Warrens/Races. They more or less themselves killed nearly all the Jaghut. I THINK that crazy dragon that is in the warren that is supposed to be significantly larger than even Anomander Rake is a Bonecaster (though I have no understanding of how that whole concept - bonecasters seem to simply be the mages of the T'lan Imass but....one of them is a uh...dragon?)

2. Also on the note of Icarium, and I am certain this will be a "read on" question - but what in the sam hell is wrong with his memory and why is Mappo so dedicated to stopping him from discovering his memories? Are we supposed to believe that if he figures out that he ruined all those empires in the past that he'll lose it and go nuts again?

3. I think I simply misread something. There is a scene where Felisin, Heboric and that mage (cant remember his name) are in some really old caverns and some really fat dude with some servants shows up. For some reason (maybe only because he was fat but I could have sworn there was something else) I thought that was Kruppe for a minute. But then he turns out to be a D'ivers - apparently Gryllen - as he turns into a bunch of rats. Can anyone set me straight on this?

I cannot believe that a human could conceptualize and execute a story like this. There simply is no other story i've ever encountered that is even a 1/4th as complex as Malazan. The foreshadowing, the use of vague language that denotes so much more than it immediately reveals, the number of characters. I am beginning to suspect that Erikson is not human.

#1 - Well, I won't reveal exactly how Icarium could wipe out a city, but just because he hasn't so far displayed any abilities beyond great swordplay and archery, doesn't mean he doesn't have further capabilities. Even then, though, maybe he could just kill everyone with his sword? It might take a while, but Rake could probably stab everyone in Darujhistan if he wanted to (though most would run, I guess), or he could turn into a dragon and blast it all - it works either way. That Mappo can knock him out doesn't detract from this, particularly since Mappo does it before Icarium is truly "unleashed". A lot of Ascendants have impressive offensive abilities but are still quite vulnerable if you can manage to get close enough to swipe their head off or fill them with arrows.

As for the Jaghut/T'lan Imass bit - well, yes, his blood CAN be that potent because who knows how old Icarium is? He could be millenia old and have a direct Jaghut parent, rather than be as watered down as other Jhag might be. Furthermore, not all Jaghut are equal in power, nor are humans, nor are Jhag. Likewise, not all T'lan Imass are all that powerful either. When they kill Jaghut they win through numbers - thousands of undead Imass swarming a lone Jaghut until the Jaghut can't run, hide or blast the Imass to pieces anymore and dies.


#2 - Read on. You should have a pretty good sense of the answer to this by the end of this book.


#3 - Yup, it was Gryllen, who turned into a bunch of rats. No relation to Kruppe.

[Defiance]

D, on 10 September 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

#3 - Yup, it was Gryllen, who turned into a bunch of rats. No relation to Kruppe.

OR SO IT MAY SEEM...

[Traveller]

Dream Theater, on 10 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

I cannot believe that a human could conceptualize and execute a story like this. There simply is no other story i've ever encountered that is even a 1/4th as complex as Malazan. The foreshadowing, the use of vague language that denotes so much more than it immediately reveals, the number of characters. I am beginning to suspect that Erikson is not human.

I like this. Wait until you've read another 8 books. And then, in the tenth, you'll find you are still getting those 'shit, he must have had that planned from way back then?!' feelings.

These books, more than any I know, demand to be re-read, and when they are they just get better as you realise the truly epic scale of threads and themes that run through them.

[Dream Theater]

Thank you all for your help. It was well said in that it answered my questions but without spoilers.

Traveller, I try not to write this every time I make a post b/c I dont see why people would especially care but I did read through half of book 5 when I was interrupted by a very significant test I had to work for and am only now resuming them about a year later. But yes, I am astounded even now about how much foreplanning the author must have done. While I would not have a thing changed about the incredible complexity, it is difficult sometimes trying to relax and get into these books as you need to almost be more aware of every word and its implications than in any classroom setting I've been in.

A very modest example is when Duiker stubles upon the Silanda while fleeing Korbolo Dom. If I were the author, I would have followed all the very predictable patterns of any book out there. It would have started with Duiker saying "Holy Shit! What is a boat doing here? Why is your skin bronze? What is going on? And then taking the next 20 pages to carefully lay it all out. Instead, we get two paragraphs. Duiker simply says that there he sees it, the ship, their skin is bronze, asks where they have been and gets no explanation b/c of the impending fight. That's it. That strains the Western reader (dont know about other nationalities but definitely Westerners )as it is just not how stories are revealed to us typically.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Dream Theater, on 10 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

I have been reading at a glacial pace which is a real shame. But I got through 100 or so pages this weekend and I'm just struggling to understand some things. I have no doubt that some of my questions will have major spoilers if answered, so please feel free to tell me to read on. Also, there are some later-in-Chain of Dogs spoilers in my questions

1. I am struggling to fully understand Icarium. First off, he seems to be one of the most billy badass guys around. I just read the section where he and Mappo, Crokus and Fiddler are looking at those seven scorpion thrones and how they had been badly thrashed by someone really powerful (i.e. Icarium). It is mentioned that when he really loses control, he is capable of wiping clean entire cities if not maybe even continents. Huh? How? I think he is only half Jaghut, I've not heard of him yet accessing a warren, a solid clout to the head from Mappo seems to knock him out cold (whereas an entity capable of crushing entire masses of people would likely not fall to a simple blow to the head). How is it this guy is so damned tough. One other element. We know his Jaghut blood cannot be THAT potent. By what I am trying to piece together, arguably the most unstoppable force if truly unleashed is the T'lan Imass. First, they are nearly immortal and indestructible it seems. They are one of the Elder Warrens/Races. They more or less themselves killed nearly all the Jaghut. I THINK that crazy dragon that is in the warren that is supposed to be significantly larger than even Anomander Rake is a Bonecaster (though I have no understanding of how that whole concept - bonecasters seem to simply be the mages of the T'lan Imass but....one of them is a uh...dragon?)

2. Also on the note of Icarium, and I am certain this will be a "read on" question - but what in the sam hell is wrong with his memory and why is Mappo so dedicated to stopping him from discovering his memories? Are we supposed to believe that if he figures out that he ruined all those empires in the past that he'll lose it and go nuts again?

3. I think I simply misread something. There is a scene where Felisin, Heboric and that mage (cant remember his name) are in some really old caverns and some really fat dude with some servants shows up. For some reason (maybe only because he was fat but I could have sworn there was something else) I thought that was Kruppe for a minute. But then he turns out to be a D'ivers - apparently Gryllen - as he turns into a bunch of rats. Can anyone set me straight on this?

I cannot believe that a human could conceptualize and execute a story like this. There simply is no other story i've ever encountered that is even a 1/4th as complex as Malazan. The foreshadowing, the use of vague language that denotes so much more than it immediately reveals, the number of characters. I am beginning to suspect that Erikson is not human.

1. Icarium's nature has never really been fully explained to my knowledge. MODGOD NOTICE OF LATER BOOKS REFERENCES DELETED

2. Icarium is a very nice person. If he found out about his past, well let's say the world would regret it.

3. You have the right of it. Gryllen just happens to be one of the most powerful d'ivers, (what can you do against an army of rats after all)

This post has been edited by Abyss: 11 September 2012 - 04:54 AM

[Dream Theater]

I cannot wait to read through all 10 books. I am so dying ot know how it all shakes out and what all the backstories are. Btw, by book 10, are you fairly well versed in what all the plot twists, important characters, etc are?

Another aside comment. I cannot believe the moments of pants-crapping epicness in this series. That scene where Gryllen is talking with Felisin and then the shield starts to get rocked by that Soultaken that is a HUGE ASS BEAR. At first it is downplayed by Gryllen...then it escalates, and a little more, and a little more until it becomes absolutely over the top. Or the big encounters b/w Coltaine and Korbolo's armies. How can a man spin such a complex tale as these books and have scenes that are...so artfully done where about a billion tons of ass are kicked thoroughly but without it becoming gratuitous or even overstated?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Dream Theater, on 11 September 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

I cannot wait to read through all 10 books. I am so dying ot know how it all shakes out and what all the backstories are. Btw, by book 10, are you fairly well versed in what all the plot twists, important characters, etc are?

for the most part, though there is some huge twists and turns in the final two books. hell of a lot happens in those last two books, i tell you what. not to mention Toll the Hounds. damn, jealous again

[Siergiej]

Quote

Icarium's nature has never really been fully explained to my knowledge

Not fully, but I think we gat a fairly good explanation MODGOD NOTICE OF LATER BOOK SPOILERS REMOVED.

Quote

Btw, by book 10, are you fairly well versed in what all the plot twists, important characters, etc are?

Fairly well, yes, that's a good term. MODGOD NOTICE OF LATER BOOK SPOILERS REMOVED. BEING CLEVER DOESN'T MAKE IT LESS OF A SPOILER.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 12 September 2012 - 03:42 PM