[Berufend]

Hello! I have been reading the books and for the most part really love the series. I have just finished BH and (as I have been doing for the past year) came on to the forum to read dozens and dozens of threads to get a clearer image of what I just read. I figured it was time to sign up and throw out a post of my own. Do people still frequent here or am I about 10 years too late...? Here are some thoughts and questions up to this point...

1) Where is Rake? In the earlier books he was a vocal presence, but now he is only mentioned here and there. Will he return to take up a part again anytime soon...?

2) What is the deal with the thrones? At first they were protect the 1st throne (until they pretended to destroy it with an illusion) from the Edur. Why did the Edur want it and what happens when you get to it? Why did they then go after Shadowthorns throne? If they got to it and sat down, do they take his spot?

3) Why did so many in the book believe that Quick Ben was not a high mage? Mallick Rell (I think) made a comment about that as did someone else I think. Despite him using an illusion to stop the Edur (with help) surely they know how powerful he is...it seems like everyone to even look his way knows the man is ultra powered. And why did the skin peel back and his flesh get all nasty when he was blasting Icarium? Was he using Chaos or something?

4) Anyone ever wonder if Kalam and QB will take over ST and Cotillian?

5) This one is to settle an argument: I am planning on reading Game of Thrones next...my friends assure me that (even though they have not read any SE books) the Game of Thrones is far more complex and harder to follow. Please tell me that is not the case...I'm not sure my brain can handle more info then what these books throw our way...

Happy Reading, I am now starting RG.

[Malbolge]

1) Rake has had his own concerns, with the Tiste Andii, Coral, Genabackis in general. Can't say too much without spoilers... but, oh yes. Rake will appear again.

2) The thrones are (in some way) the means by which control of the Houses is achieved or manipulated. The 2 thrones in the Bonehunters aren't straightforward though (if, indeed, any of them are). The throne on Drift Avalii is the Throne of Shadow. Kellanved/Shadowthrone currently occupies the position of King of High House Shadow (Dancer/Cotillion is the Assassin of the House). But, it's hinted that they only seized the shadow of the Throne of Shadow (I said it wasn't straightforward) and that they haven't taken that Throne of Shadow that is in the book (they are, perhaps, more custodians of that Throne). Shadow is Kurald Emurlahn, just like Dark is Kurald Galain (the Andii realm), and Kurald Thyrllan is Light (Liossan). The Edur's realm was Shadow/Emurlahn, until the sundering... hence they want it back. If they claim the Throne, they will gain a significant power in/from the Shadow realms. But, the Edur currently are somewhat corrupted, by their Emperor and his connections to the Crippled God. Therefore, Shadowthrone and Cotillion want to keep it out of their hands, maybe as much as they want to keep it in their own hands.

The second throne featured is the First Throne (by name), and it's the throne that controls the T'laan Imass (the First Empire). It isn't as rigid, perhaps, as the other thrones, as far as being associated with a House or High House. But, whoever (mortal) sits on it, controls the First Empire (the T'laan Imass - pretty effective military power). It used to be in 7 Cities, but was moved when Logos realised its vulnerability and the Nameless Ones were close to sitting on it. Where it was moved to, no one knows... but Kellanved found it, and sat himself on it... thus the T'laan Imass serving the Malazans. The Broken (the 7 T'laan Imass that were the 7 Faces in the Rock to Karsa, and serve the Crippled God) know where it is, and so the Edur (who also serve the Crippled God) are trying to claim it, and the T'laan Imass. Again, Shadowthrone/Cotillion, although not perhaps having any control over it themselves, would like to keep it out of the hands (or bums) of the Edur.

Some more information on Shadowthrone/Cotillion's ascension to the Throne of Shadow is in Ian C Esselmont's Night of Knives.

3) Quick Ben is an enigma, wrapped in a mystery, housed in a Mhybe, wrapped in some cling film, stored in one of Kruppe's grubby sleeves... that's then been tossed through the Abyss. Twelve times. Yes, Quick Ben has power. We've seen it. But, we've also seen that he's quite reticent to use it. He doesn't want to reveal himself... he's played under the radar, kept quiet (as much as he can). Listed as dead in 7 Cities, stuck as a Squad Mage (not even Cadre) in the Bridgeburners, always avoiding people like Anomander Rake (and maybe Tayschrenn - remember, he didn't want to reveal himself too much while docked at Malaz Harbour unless absolutely necessary as Kalam's Shaved Knuckle, for fear of Tayschrenn). Then remember the double edged sword that is power... it brings bigger, nastier power over to have a look. There's probably a very good reason why Quick Ben wants to remain as hidden as he can... Remember, this is Quick Ben who probably has a different centuries old scheme going for every Soul held within him. Who half the people he meets seem to think he was dead, or should be dead, or try to make him dead.

We see him as the power he is, because we're slightly omniscient as the reader, and we need that... but that isn't how the other people in the books see him. Sometimes they see what he wants them to see, sometimes they only see what they want to see.

As to why his skin was peeling back... I think that was just down to the sheer amount or strength of power that he was trying to channel through his body. I think it's mentioned somewhere that the magic from the Warrens has to use the Mage's physical body (at least in part) to be channelled. QB's (human?) body probably wasn't up to the task of handling the strength of power from how ever many Warrens he opened. QB is a powerful mage, but that power has only been shown (up until now) as skill and intelligence... he's got tired when he's had to show strength, and he's never shown anything really, really big. The strength he used in the fight against Icarium pushed him to his limits.

4) I'd never consider that, because then we'd lose Shadowthrone and Cotillion. No one could replace them.

5) I'd say it was a matter of scale and scope, and depth that comes from that. Very short answer, A Song of Ice And Fire deals with a much narrower cast of characters and a narrower story, but that allows it to deal much, much more deeply with those characters, and those events. Malazan perhaps lacks some of the depth from individuals... but, I think, it makes up for that depth (of people) with depth of peoples. For me, the Malazan books tell stories about characters and individuals, but in that and alongside it, they tell stories about entire civilisations or Empires. There's just as much complexity, it's just in different things in the 2 series.

Hope you enjoy the rest of the series.

[Kanese S's]

Berufend, on 01 September 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

1) Where is Rake? In the earlier books he was a vocal presence, but now he is only mentioned here and there. Will he return to take up a part again anytime soon...?

Anomander Rake, lord of Moon's Spawn, commander of the Tiste Andii, son of darkness, mane of chaos, wielder of Dragnipur and all that good stuff, currently resides in (Black) Coral, a city conquered/liberated from the Pannion Domin (in Memories of Ice), which is on Genabackis. Genabackis, Darujhistan and Coral in particular, will be revisited in Toll the Hounds

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2) What is the deal with the thrones? At first they were protect the 1st throne (until they pretended to destroy it with an illusion) from the Edur. Why did the Edur want it and what happens when you get to it? Why did they then go after Shadowthorns throne? If they got to it and sat down, do they take his spot?

Power, basically.

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3) Why did so many in the book believe that Quick Ben was not a high mage? Mallick Rell (I think) made a comment about that as did someone else I think. Despite him using an illusion to stop the Edur (with help) surely they know how powerful he is...it seems like everyone to even look his way knows the man is ultra powered. And why did the skin peel back and his flesh get all nasty when he was blasting Icarium? Was he using Chaos or something?

Quick Ben has spent a lot of time convincing everyone that he's not a High Mage, due to him both not wanting that much responsibility, and not wanting to be so conspicuous a target.

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4) Anyone ever wonder if Kalam and QB will take over ST and Cotillian?

It's not something I had previously thought of much.

[Berufend]

Great stuff, Thanks for the quick response!

[theocean]

ill take on the last question and leave the rest to the real experts... ASOIAF is nowhere close to as complex as the malazan series... It may be just as good a story, but Malazan is a lot more to follow and try to keep up with, have your friends read just gardens of the moon if they want to continue to disagree.

[Kanubis]

I found GoT very easy to follow, reading it after MBotF. The odd time you might forget a name, the family/house listings in the index remind you.

However, I suppose it's fairly understandable that someone who has read GoT but not MBotF might make such a claim. It is more complex than your average fantasy series.

One big difference is that it's conceptually much simpler. There might be a fairly large cast to follow but has no real equivalent of "what the hell is Ascendency? And what the f**k is a Warren???"

Also, it's not finished. In terms of getting things finished Martin seems far more inspired by Jordan than Erikson.

[Abyss]

True, it's not like it's easy keeping all the Aegons, Aeryns and Aeddies straight in SIF, but at root it's mostly politics and people bashing each other with swords. There's magic but it's minimal and relatively straightforward, at least in the sense that one thing tends to happen at a time, be it dragons, visions, ice zombies or whatever. And the relevant history is relatively recent, although GRRM does go way back on some elements.

MBF has the politics (tho perhaps more interpersonal than inter-state), certainly the sword-bashing, adds a whole other level with multiple 'magic systems' and a complex, relevant history that goes back a few hundred thou years and at times may not be reliable.

MBF also takes more of a 'you're coming into a story in progress' approach. Certainly SIF starts with ample back-story, but it has a pretty clear beginning for the reader.

[theocean]

Kanubis, on 27 March 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

I found GoT very easy to follow, reading it after MBotF. The odd time you might forget a name, the family/house listings in the index remind you.

However, I suppose it's fairly understandable that someone who has read GoT but not MBotF might make such a claim. It is more complex than your average fantasy series.

One big difference is that it's conceptually much simpler. There might be a fairly large cast to follow but has no real equivalent of "what the hell is Ascendency? And what the f**k is a Warren???"

Also, it's not finished. In terms of getting things finished Martin seems far more inspired by Jordan than Erikson.

Agreed when i read ASOIAF

[Nevyn]

Berufend, on 01 September 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

3) Why did so many in the book believe that Quick Ben was not a high mage? Mallick Rell (I think) made a comment about that as did someone else I think. Despite him using an illusion to stop the Edur (with help) surely they know how powerful he is...it seems like everyone to even look his way knows the man is ultra powered. And why did the skin peel back and his flesh get all nasty when he was blasting Icarium? Was he using Chaos or something?

I'm trying to remember the exact quote you are referring to.

One thing that can be confusing in MBotF is that "High Mage" is both an adjective reflecting a mage of powerful ability, and also a rank or position within the Malazan military.

Many are surprised when QB is "promoted" to High Mage (the rank), because that is not his style. He's a former high priest and very powerful mage but has essentially been "hiding" in the Bridgeburners. He did not use his real name, and rarely flexed his true ability except when backed into a corner. He got promoted to High Mage against his will after Coral, after it was revealed to Tayschrenn how powerful he was. The assumption is his preference would be to stay as a squad mage, and under the radar.

As for everyone knowing he is ultra powered, not really. It might feel that way after reading for awhile, but remember that he likes to avoid showing what he can do. Whenever he does something awesome, it tends to take people who don't know him by surprise as its a remarkable amount of power. However, its is certainly true that he can't keep the same low profile he once did.

No idea about skin peeling back, etc, I'd have to re-read that section.

[Abyss]

Nevyn, on 27 March 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Berufend, on 01 September 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

... Quick Ben ...And why did the skin peel back and his flesh get all nasty when he was blasting Icarium? Was he using Chaos or something?

...No idea about skin peeling back, etc, I'd have to re-read that section.

Iccy's rage causes a sort of razor tornado warren thing more or less around him.
Earlier in the fight someone, i think it was Onrack, manages to turn him around and he reduces pretty much the entire Letherii/Edur force to cole slaw and thin red mist.
QB hits Iccy with everything he's got, but Icarium gets closer and closer and the razor wind effect strikes at QB... not fully, since he just ends up cut as opposed to shredded, but that's what caused it.

Now the obvious question that follows is why Trull, who is not sheilded by warrens, undead like Onrack or the other Imass, or a powerful demon matron like Apt, lasts more thirty seconds in that case, let alone twice.

Part of the answer to that is RAFO, but the other part is that the razor wind thing seems to come and go, it doesn't surround Iccy so much as move with him, and when Trull's engaged against Iccy the first time the wind has just pummeled a Bonecaster, and the second time QB has just hammered Iccy, so the effect is lessened. And also, Trull is just that badass.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 27 March 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 27 March 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Berufend, on 01 September 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

... Quick Ben ...And why did the skin peel back and his flesh get all nasty when he was blasting Icarium? Was he using Chaos or something?

...No idea about skin peeling back, etc, I'd have to re-read that section.

Iccy's rage causes a sort of razor tornado warren thing more or less around him.
Earlier in the fight someone, i think it was Onrack, manages to turn him around and he reduces pretty much the entire Letherii/Edur force to cole slaw and thin red mist.
QB hits Iccy with everything he's got, but Icarium gets closer and closer and the razor wind effect strikes at QB... not fully, since he just ends up cut as opposed to shredded, but that's what caused it.

Now the obvious question that follows is why Trull, who is not sheilded by warrens, undead like Onrack or the other Imass, or a powerful demon matron like Apt, lasts more thirty seconds in that case, let alone twice.

Part of the answer to that is RAFO, but the other part is that the razor wind thing seems to come and go, it doesn't surround Iccy so much as move with him, and when Trull's engaged against Iccy the first time the wind has just pummeled a Bonecaster, and the second time QB has just hammered Iccy, so the effect is lessened. And also, Trull is just that badass.

I find myself disagreeing with Abyss here.

The razor wind theory is part of the reason Iccy is so powerful. It allows him to become a ridiculously strong and powerful swordsman while providing untold other benefits along with the negative side in that his rage is unstoppable. In this he is the same as other Jaghut whose rage are legendary though there is more to Iccy and youll find this out when youve fully read the series.

As for QB skin as Abyss says it doesnt affect Trull and this is because it is more of a defensive force rather than an offensive force. It protects Iccy and can damage those nearby because of its immense pressure like Dragnipur to Baruk in GOTM, maybe, but really it was QB being faced with an unstoppable force and not being an immovable object that caused him to rupture. Ive just reread the battle (873-874 MMPB) and it is as QB magic is running out and Icarium leans into it that QB skin starts rupturing. I take this as QB using all of himself and stretching himself to exhaustion and Icarium brushing these off. Like in GOTM when Gear hits Tattersails magic and is stopped, yet Tattersail herself is injured as a result of her magic taking the hit. Im trying not to spoil anything here so there are two ways you can interpret it.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

In regards to OP Question 2, I was always curious why Shadowthrone never sat on the Drift Avali Throne of Shadow. I wonder if its one of those traps that beckons with power and then sort of turns on its user's intentions and consumes them in a way, for lack of a better description.

[Abyss]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 28 March 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

I find myself disagreeing with Abyss here.

See, you shattered your credibility right there....

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The razor wind theory is part of the reason Iccy is so powerful. It allows him to become a ridiculously strong and powerful swordsman while providing untold other benefits along with the negative side in that his rage is unstoppable.

I don't think the razor wind is the reason why he's strong. I think it's a byproduct of him accessing the chaos inside him that was stuck there when he broke the Azath House.
Any Jaghut might be incredibly strong, but the chaos also causes a beserker rage and power-up that makes him unstoppable

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In this he is the same as other Jaghut whose rage are legendary ...

Agreed. Back in MoI or GotM someone mentions the trick to beating tem was triggering their rage, usually against each other.

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As for QB skin as Abyss says it doesnt affect Trull and this is because it is more of a defensive force rather than an offensive force.

How so? The Letherii/Edur force was just standing there when Onrack turned him around. Iccy just looked at them and presto, instant puree.

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It protects Iccy

I don't think so. It never sheilds him from any attacks, but it does damage people moving against him. I suppose it might deflect an arrow or whatever, but Onrack, Ibra and Apt all close in without being stopped.

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... really it was QB being faced with an unstoppable force and not being an immovable object that caused him to rupture. Ive just reread the battle (873-874 MMPB) and it is as QB magic is running out and Icarium leans into it that QB skin starts rupturing. I take this as QB using all of himself and stretching himself to exhaustion and Icarium brushing these off. Like in GOTM when Gear hits Tattersails magic and is stopped, yet Tattersail herself is injured as a result of her magic taking the hit. ....

I think you're right on this part.