[Abyss]

Pure speculation, but if T'riss is aspected to dreams, she could be acting to make Draconus' and MD's dreams come true, but not in a good way.
Put a different way, if there is power in dreams, then imagine the power in the dreams of a Night-aspected Azathanai and a newly awakened goddess of Darkness.

The effect on Syntara, Hunn Rall and the rest of the 'Light' may be a byproduct, ie a side effect or inverse reaction to the manifestation of Darkness.

[Puck]

I assume she (T'riss) saw/comprehended that a balance was needed now that Darkness was getting a face and a people aspected to it and thus something aspected to Light was needed or else the balance of forces/elements might be damaged. She brought that knowledge to Mother Dark, which in turn is why Mother Dark accepted and welcomed Syntara's doubts and disbelief.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

So ok, she saw the Hold of Darkness manifesting from Drac's gift to his Tiste girlfriend and realized a balance was needed. So THEN she went into the vitr, put some concentrated vitr-light into a jar and gifted it to Urusander via Syntara. Got it. So the "casting out" of Syntara was more a way to get her to deliver the light to Urusander.

More speculation...whoever she took that light from (The elient? KCCM?), some dragon type creature was on the shore. Did it follow her once she procured the vitr, and its remains were the result of her battle with it? I wonder if that's why all the dragons show up at the end...are they chasing her? Do they want the light and darkness back (is that logical?)?

[Orlion]

I do not think we'll see T'riss again in this trilogy. It does not fit the Shakespeare formula.
I imagine if she was on the Vitr with Ardata that Ardata may have pushed her into that sea of chaos. What they were doing out there could have to do with the various beasties crawling from the Vitr.
Of course, those beasties may have been dismissed by some other sorcerers after being summoned from their own realm, thus ending up in the Vitr (read your Esslemont, people!)

Disjointed contemplations ended.

And some more: the dragons came after Draconus opened up one gate, thus opening up several others (like the gate to Death which Hood and Co. went through). I imagine some dragons were around when it opened and so they flew through to check out what it was.

This post has been edited by Orlion: 23 October 2012 - 03:35 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

No, I understand completely how the dragon gate opened. But they came out all gangbusters. I do know of the demon things on the shore of the vitr in SW/OST, but I don't see a connection between them and this ancient headless dragon thing, except for them both being on the shore. Having said all i did now, though I will concede that we could be done with her. I just don't think we will.

Change of mental process. So if we go with Shakespeare, the only trilogy he did was Henry VI. I will just quote wikipedia here, as it states concisely the major plots of that trilogy:

Quote

"Whereas 2 Henry VI deals with the King's inability to quell the bickering of his nobles, and the inevitability of armed conflict, and 3 Henry VI deals with the horrors of that conflict, 1 Henry VI deals with the loss of England's French territories and the political machinations leading up to the Wars of the Roses, as the English political system is torn apart by personal squabbles and petty jealousy."

Sounds familiar...

[Orlion]

Stalking Stonny, on 23 October 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

No, I understand completely how the dragon gate opened. But they came out all gangbusters. I do know of the demon things on the shore of the vitr in SW/OST, but I don't see a connection between them and this ancient headless dragon thing, except for them both being on the shore. Having said all i did now, though I will concede that we could be done with her. I just don't think we will.

Change of mental process. So if we go with Shakespeare, the only trilogy he did was Henry VI. I will just quote wikipedia here, as it states concisely the major plots of that trilogy:

Quote

"Whereas 2 Henry VI deals with the King's inability to quell the bickering of his nobles, and the inevitability of armed conflict, and 3 Henry VI deals with the horrors of that conflict, 1 Henry VI deals with the loss of England's French territories and the political machinations leading up to the Wars of the Roses, as the English political system is torn apart by personal squabbles and petty jealousy."

Sounds familiar...

I was actually thinking of T'riss in a sort of Joan of Arc role. Some minor but very important role that moves the plot forward. Though a better comparison might be the Fates from Macbeth. Or the Old Man in Julius Ceasar (Ware the Ides of March!)

[Spoilsport Stonny]

In RG, theres a part where Seren sees all the aged dead dragons in SD and Udinaas mentions they look like dead flies on a closed windowsill. Like they were all just waiting for it to open so they could leave...They must not have any internet in Starval Demelain.

[suqleg]

Am I the only one who thinks Arathan is Disembrae? A natural never challenged with a sword, A child that was an obvious focal point... Dunno Hood+kid+swordsman = Daseem me thinks.

[Ulrik]

I like the notion that Ruthan Gudd could be Arathan...but it doesnt fit my guess that Quick Ben is son of Arathan and Korya (two young people, one tower...cmon, she is Delath...)

Just, with so much chaos in gods, Azathanai etc...when came Trake? He should be First Hero...humans or Dog Runners...?

[worry]

I'm a bit more interested in when Fener comes along. He's an anthropomorphic boar (as opposed to like the wolves of winter, or the bear god of war from TTH) and I don't think it's ever mentioned what era or civilization he came from, including First Empire/Hero which seems most logical with human/soletaken ability. Trake is definitely a human soletaken, but Fener's just that much more a mystery.

[Ulrik]

Yeah, Fener is bigger enigma!
btw - I rushed finale...and missed how did river god died...again...poor sod... Who killed him?

[Hermetic Tantric]

Grizzin Farl = Greymane?

I felt that way after reading Stonewielder and I still feel that way.

[Raatchi]

Through the last part of FOD I felt sure that Arathan = Icarium. He is Azathanai and so can take the shape of a Jhag, seems like he's going to spend a lot of time with Gothos, father like figure etc



But right at the end of the book when Arathan is watching the army Hood has gathered for his war on death, Blind Gallan writes a poem addressed to Fisher Kel Tath where he says something along the lines: and there were tears in your eyes as you saw that host. (don't have the book to hand, can't quote exact)

ie he seems to be saying that Fisher saw this army himself. That made me think that Arathan ("walks on water") is Fisher.




or is that just dumb?


(I'll get my coat)

[nacht]

Raatchi, on 13 November 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Through the last part of FOD I felt sure that Arathan = Icarium. He is Azathanai and so can take the shape of a Jhag, seems like he's going to spend a lot of time with Gothos, father like figure etc



But right at the end of the book when Arathan is watching the army Hood has gathered for his war on death, Blind Gallan writes a poem addressed to Fisher Kel Tath where he says something along the lines: and there were tears in your eyes as you saw that host. (don't have the book to hand, can't quote exact)

ie he seems to be saying that Fisher saw this army himself. That made me think that Arathan ("walks on water") is Fisher.




or is that just dumb?


(I'll get my coat)

This is the quote

Quote

Still, even a blind man, in this moment, could not but see the shine in your eyes, my friend. You blaze with the poet’s heat, as you imagine this assembly, so silent and so determined, so hopeless and so … brilliant.

and Icarium was born to Gothos and a toblakai (If I remember correctly).
I

[Raatchi]

I stand corrected.



cheers

[Abyss]

nacht, on 13 November 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

...and Icarium was born to Gothos and a toblakai (If I remember correctly).

Icarium's mother is referred to as 'that overgrown hag' iirc but we don't actually know that she's Toblakai.
That assumption was made following HoC when Aramala hinted to Karsa that Jhag were Jaghut/T3, but we've since learned that Jahg is any combination with Jaghut, the complication being that the only confirmed crosses are the ones Aramala ref'd, and whoever Gothos got his freak on with that led to Icarium.

I've always figured it was Kilamandaros, but there's little to back that up beyond his power and rage, which may be linked to the brain damage he got when he trashed the Azath.

Point being, i don't think any character in FoD is Icarium.

[Destiny]

Abyss, on 14 November 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

nacht, on 13 November 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

...and Icarium was born to Gothos and a toblakai (If I remember correctly).

Icarium's mother is referred to as 'that overgrown hag' iirc but we don't actually know that she's Toblakai.
That assumption was made following HoC when Aramala hinted to Karsa that Jhag were Jaghut/T3, but we've since learned that Jahg is any combination with Jaghut, the complication being that the only confirmed crosses are the ones Aramala ref'd, and whoever Gothos got his freak on with that led to Icarium.

I've always figured it was Kilamandaros, but there's little to back that up beyond his power and rage, which may be linked to the brain damage he got when he trashed the Azath.

Point being, i don't think any character in FoD is Icarium.

I agree that we don't have definitive proof who Iccy's mother was, but there's a scene in RG where Karsa confronts Icarium about something (I think it was about who got to fight Rhulad first, but I'm not sure) and Karsa then walks away because he saw some part Toblakai in Icarium. But that doesn't really prove anything.

Personally, "overgrown hag" does sound a lot like Kilmandaros, but I guess it all just depends on how much we trust Karsa Orlong to be right

And I also don't think we've seen Icarium in FOD (yet).

[Abyss]

Destiny, on 14 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

... there's a scene in RG where Karsa confronts Icarium about something (I think it was about who got to fight Rhulad first, but I'm not sure) and Karsa then walks away because he saw some part Toblakai in Icarium. But that doesn't really prove anything.
...

And FoD really throws wide open the origins of the T3 race to the point that whatever Karsa saw could be, well, anything, and that's even before we get into the logistics of Thel Akai to T3 to Toblakai/Teblor...

[worry]

I hope we meet some more blue Jaghut.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Abyss, on 14 November 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Destiny, on 14 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

... there's a scene in RG where Karsa confronts Icarium about something (I think it was about who got to fight Rhulad first, but I'm not sure) and Karsa then walks away because he saw some part Toblakai in Icarium. But that doesn't really prove anything.
...

And FoD really throws wide open the origins of the T3 race to the point that whatever Karsa saw could be, well, anything, and that's even before we get into the logistics of Thel Akai to T3 to Toblakai/Teblor...

the confusion there is what makes me lean toward karsa seeing what he's looking for. of course, the origins of the Thel Akai are quite murky at this point. both grizzin farl and kilimandaros seem to live among them, though both are abroad in FoD for various reasons. however, while i think they both might have had something to do with the thel akai, grizzin seems much more aligned with the Thel akai personally, while kilimandaros obviously rings more forulkan bells. tough to say, especially since we've met no significant female thel akai/toblakai characters from this time period ever. unless you count the dead queen pregnancy test one.