[polishgenius]

Am I the only one who thought Envy, Spite and Malice's shenanigans had a distinctly Kelmomas-from-White-Luck-Warrior feel to them? To the point I thought it was a deliberate tip of the hat.

Anyway, overall, I liked the book a lot, probably more than any of the second five main-sequence books, and greatly appreciated the greater focus on character and increased skill at believable political skullduggery as a change from huge pyrotechnical displays of convergence (even though I still love a bit of SE 'splodey, there were moments in the second half of the series where the smackdowns felt a bit rushed or tagged on on occasion). The fact that the whole thing hinges on a wedding, and that the wedding is mentioned at the start but doesn't actually get brutally cut down till more than half way is, by Erikson standards, positively low-key and slow burn, and I appreciate the shiny newness.

I do however have a fairly long list of minor annoyances, some of them based on the changes from what we knew - Burn is already asleep and the Tiste are apparently not alien to Wu at all, or else everyone is being two of them- but others simply stemming from the problems that Erikson's ridiculously overscaled timeline causes. More than a quarter of a million years before the series? It's an absurd amount of time. I know there's a theme of stagnation about the whole setting but the fact that almost every major player amongs the 'modern' Tiste is already in play back then, as well as many other ascendants/elder gods and the seeds for other major backstory plots (the Imass, the War on Death), and even the fact that, for a minor example, Draconus mentions the idea for Dragnipur but still hasn't forged it 150,000-odd years later during Kallor's fall all rather magnifies the problem with that scale. It's almost as if between then and the series proper, about the only things of significance to happen were Kallor (who may or may not exist by this time anyway, which if so either makes him not human or fucks with the timeline yet-a-fucking-gain) and the things that resulted from him, and the First Empire.

That rant is out of proportion to my actual irritation though. There's a lot of them, but none of them seriously damage the book.

[Kanese S's]

I just finished reading FoD.

I enjoyed it, and to me it felt like SE's darkest, bleakest work so far that I've read. Part of that has to do with the comic relief being very sparse, I think. Somehow there was just this feeling of dread throughout the entire book for me, an ominous atmosphere that just pervaded everything. The level of viciousness was kinda shocking to me. I mean, I know that Spite and Envy are really ruthless characters, but holy crap, they're practically getting off on murdering people.

It's interesting how some characters change, too. As previously mentioned, Spite and Envy are really over the top characters in the Book of the Fallen, but compared with how they are in Forge, they've mellowed out quite a bit by then.

And in the opposite direction, apparently, are Scara Bandaris and Sukul Ankhadu. Scara Bandaris is one of the most likeable characters in FoD, being pretty much that sort of kind, easygoing fellow that everyone likes, and then by the prologue of MT, he's stabbing his former best friend in the back. Sukul in FoD is an earnest and well-meaning girl, even sweet. How does she go from helping out Orfantal, or at least trying to do so, to luring people to their deaths in order to eat their internal organs in RG?

The Errant is a douche. Apparently, he's been a douchebag for a very long time. It's interesting to see that in FoD Kilmandaros does not approve of Sechul Lath hanging out with Errastus.

Similarly nasty for a very long time is Olar Ethil. She is just terrible.

While some have voiced doubts about whether Urusander, who seems a likeable dude in FoD, can really be Father Light, given how the Liosan appear in the main series, I would posit that by the main series, FL doesn't really seem to be much involved, any more than MD is, perhaps even less. The cataclysmic ending that we know probably happens at the conclusion of this trilogy may have broken FL or driven him away as well.

I'm kinda thinking that Scara and the U. Legion soldiers who follow him back to Sedis hold might become the basis of the Tiste Edur.

It's interesting how the different Tiste groups have developed by the time of the main series. The Edur have become a tribal people, which isn't to say they've necessarily become less "civilized," (since how civilized are the Tiste in FoD? They're certainly just as vicious, if not moreso, than they ever are in the Book of the Fallen), and both the Liosan and Andii have become significantly more martial (even if in Forge they are a fairly martial people to start with). The Andii at least, by the main series, seem to have somewhat lost some of the class organization (highborn, etc.) that the Tiste have in Forge.

Arathan is a character I like a lot, though he should try to be less of a douche. Then again, he's an adolescent, so maybe that's part of it. I'm curious as to whether he's anyone from the main series or not.

Around the time I've been reading Forge, I've also been listening to the album The Great Cessation by Yob, often while reading. Turned out to be a fitting soundtrack.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Kanese S, on 01 October 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Similarly nasty for a very long time is Olar Ethil. She is just terrible.

She was, good sir, the most disturbing part of the whole book, which with the redder wedding and the actions of the rogues from Urusander's Legion being close behind, was not short of disturbing moments.

I usually make mental images in my mind and composite them actively, but with her scenes the visuals exploded in my mind on their own. It was like I was watching a movie as I was reading. I could see the pain in Raskan's eyes and watched it change to a peaceful repose once decapitated...I then saw the scene from a different angle and watched his body slump to the ground as OE's stomach wound closed up. Cut to the Borderswords...

The scene with her in the branches of the burning tree when the Bordersword dies in the cavalry charge was exactly the same. I don't know what SE did to conjure these moments but his pen must have been possessed, because that shit was fucking real. Glad you finished and glad you had similar sentiments.


Aside: Also, that Yob record is the shit. Whatchyoo think of the new Baroness?

[Kanese S's]

Haven't heard the new Baroness, no. How is it?


For me, the redder wedding was the most disturbing scene, followed by Olar Ethil's bizarre murder of Raskan. I guess the horror of the legion soldiers was more shocking to me, even after they'd been killing deniers, whereas Olar Ethil being a horrible person is kinda... well... not that out of character for her. Spite, Envy, and Malice killing all those people was also a really creepy scene. And yeah, I had a similar thing happen where the images just popped into my mind unbidden, as I was not trying to imagine those parts.

One of the saddest things was the Borderswords riding to war against House Dracons. I was just mentally going "No no! Stop! You idiots!"


I'm not sure what happened with the Hust Legion. I'm thinking they got poisoned... but if so, why are they all still walking around? Was it a poison that just made them go nuts?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Kanese S, on 01 October 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Haven't heard the new Baroness, no. How is it?

Quite good.


I too was confused about what happened to them. I suppose Hunn Raal slipped them quite a mickey. But I don't understand why the one delivering the armor was thrown up into the air and what the swords were doing when the armor arrived. Definitely hoping for some clarity on that. We know they are still around to eventually kill dragons and then seal the gate to Starvald Demelain, but was this done to ensure they can't stand against the legion at the moment and Raal can move forward with whatever his plan is? ...because his plans sure as hell aint as cut and dry as "Help Urusander marry Mother Dark." Can anyone offer their opinions on just what they thought happened to the Hust Legion at the end?

Also, I'm also curious as to what Starvald Demelain actually would translate to. Either way, makes an awesome prog rock band name.

[tiam]

The Hust were definitely poisoned by the gifts Raal had brought. At one point he offers the leader of the Hust Legion some poisoned wine but she drinks her own stash explainin why it was her and the guards on watch who survived. The swords responded to their makers death by keening thus throwing the deliverer into the air. That portion was confusing but yes I think thats the gist of it.

I hope the Hust Sword making has some connection with the Letherii Blue steel thus explaining the noise. A tenuous link but one id like

[James Hutton]

Abyss, on 24 August 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Enjoying the Orfantal character-building but given how he ultimately dies i really want to see some froeshadowing of that. His obsession with glorious heroic betrayal seems... misplaced.

I had a feeling he's playing out the eventual betrayal of Silchas Ruin by Scara Bandaris. Anybody else had that feeling?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Rep'd accordingly Tiam, thank you.

[tiam]

James Hutton, on 01 October 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Abyss, on 24 August 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Enjoying the Orfantal character-building but given how he ultimately dies i really want to see some froeshadowing of that. His obsession with glorious heroic betrayal seems... misplaced.

I had a feeling he's playing out the eventual betrayal of Silchas Ruin by Scara Bandaris. Anybody else had that feeling?

Yes that was the most obvious link and I look forward to seeing how Scara Bandaris will become influential over the Pre- Shake River worshippers who became the Edur. Im also interested to see what role he played in the death of Enesdia which he alludes to in the MT prologue.

I imagine Orfantal kind of like Sansa in AGOT where her noble ideals are shattered and this leads to him becoming an assasin type of killer.

[Destiny]

James Hutton, on 01 October 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Abyss, on 24 August 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Enjoying the Orfantal character-building but given how he ultimately dies i really want to see some froeshadowing of that. His obsession with glorious heroic betrayal seems... misplaced.

I had a feeling he's playing out the eventual betrayal of Silchas Ruin by Scara Bandaris. Anybody else had that feeling?

I thought he was acting out his father's heroic death. I seem to recall something about Sandalath telling him his father was a hero for saving some high up commander (Anomander?) and then being stabbed in the back by the enemy. That's also why his grandmother is confused by the way Orfantal plays: she doesn't know Sandalath told him this story.

or at least that's what I think is going on

[tiam]

There is that as well but the echo of Bloodeye and Ruin is most likely deliberate.

[worry]

Just gonna throw this thought out there: I think the "good" guys as presented here -- Scara Bandaris primary among them, but not limited to him -- don't start turning until they are tainted with Eleint blood. There's a single line buried somewhere in the book, wish I had marked the page, about how all discord has its roots in the Eleint or Chaos or something like that. It's a bit of poetry or musing when said, but I think it's foreshadowing. Some of these people withstand the blood, some of them are corrupted by it. Maybe.

It's gonna be Anomander's biggest sin, after all.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 02 October 2012 - 07:51 PM

[blackzoid]

I believe the idea is that Anomander was the only one to withstand the chaos of the dragon blood. Or at least the only important leader anyway.
Whereas everyone else either did not and became corrupted/chaotic or simply drank much more blood to begin with (Ruin)

Alss the dragon blood is not all bad by itself, Rake in TTh says to Silann that the Tiste needed the power given by the dragon blood.
Without it they would never have survived. Or something.

[tiam]

worrywort, on 02 October 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Just gonna throw this thought out there: I think the "good" guys as presented here -- Scara Bandaris primary among them, but not limited to him -- don't start turning until they are tainted with Eleint blood. There's a single line buried somewhere in the book, wish I had marked the page, about how all discord has its roots in the Eleint or Chaos or something like that. It's a bit of poetry or musing when said, but I think it's foreshadowing. Some of these people withstand the blood, some of them are corrupted by it. Maybe.

It's gonna be Anomander's biggest sin, after all.

Potentially yes but its not simply the main cast that drinksthe blood. Orfantal, Korlat and others of Rakes Andii become Soletaken Eleint. Who knows alot more could have tried and died like the Liosan do in TCG. Also we now know his silver mane isnt because of his draconian blood but because of his mysterious mother.

There is also mention in the book that Scara is already very ambitious so its possible the draconian arrogance simply accentuated histraits rather than fully corrupting him.

[worry]

Well that's what I'm saying. Not that Draconean blood turns good people bad in a direct black and white way, and Anomander simply manages to resist most strongly. I'm saying Draconean blood is chaotic, and it affects everyone differently and to different degrees...some who were pretty decent people get corrupted -- but even then I'm not talking instant villainy. I just think it's gonna be the fulcrum for a lot of characters, a shift in both their psychology and their capabilities.

[tiam]

I dislike the idea of it corrupting people and simply see it as accentuating their current traits. Scara is already incredibly ambitious and this is accentuated by his draconic blood. Although it could easily be much more straight forward in that draconic blood is powerful and simply emboldens people to act in a way they wouldnt have. In that sense it is not the choatic blood that corrupts but the power it brings the drinker that is what corrupts them.

Admittedly a minor point I just dont like the idea of people being corrupted by dragons blood on a fundamental level.

[Avernite]

Well, we know the Eleint are, essentially, Chaos.

And what is it Mother Dark tells her High Priestess? To Embrace the mystery of Chaos, and in so doing, accept it and possibly control it.

And who are the Eleint soletaken most prone to cooperation? Those closest to Anomander, the most prominent 'follower' of Mother Dark. Seems that, perhaps, that is the secret. At least I see a link there.

[blackzoid]

polishgenius, on 28 September 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

I do however have a fairly long list of minor annoyances, some of them based on the changes from what we knew - Burn is already asleep and the Tiste are apparently not alien to Wu at all, or else everyone is being two of them- but others simply stemming from the problems that Erikson's ridiculously overscaled timeline causes. More than a quarter of a million years before the series? It's an absurd amount of time. I know there's a theme of stagnation about the whole setting but the fact that almost every major player amongs the 'modern' Tiste is already in play back then, as well as many other ascendants/elder gods and the seeds for other major backstory plots (the Imass, the War on Death), and even the fact that, for a minor example, Draconus mentions the idea for Dragnipur but still hasn't forged it 150,000-odd years later during Kallor's fall all rather magnifies the problem with that scale. It's almost as if between then and the series proper, about the only things of significance to happen were Kallor (who may or may not exist by this time anyway, which if so either makes him not human or fucks with the timeline yet-a-fucking-gain) and the things that resulted from him, and the First Empire.

You and me have the same irritation.
I mentioned the problem of the Elder days now "cannibalising" the Middle Period events as well.
It just somehow makes the world smaller which is something I don't like.

[worry]

Hmm, I'm not using "corrupt" with a particularly negative connotation IN GENERAL re: Eleint blood. I'm saying since we already know that some of these seemingly good guys turn "bad" or whatever, that in effect, in hindsight, whatever the Draconeon blood did to them was in essence a corruption, because we already know (or at this point, think we do) that they do eventually indulge some of their worst impulses. And if there's a fulcrum upon which they broke bad, I'd say Eleint blood/chaos is the thing. Maybe there's still a gap between what we're saying, but I don't think it's as wide as you're thinking, because I am talking about the specific people we know change for the worse. And if I am speaking generally at all, it's that these likely aren't the only people who go worse rather than better. None of that is to excuse or replace the already-happening degradation of the Tiste people.

[Kanese S's]

Various substances can bring out some really nasty parts of people's personalities.