[Punchy Pete]

So, Envy, Spite and Malice... and if they had a fourth she'd be Venom.

Children of Olar Ethil and Draconus... who are both Azathanai... Very interesting.

And these events are pre-ritual... The Dog Runners are Imass, I am assuming.

This book is answering a lot of questions...

[Luzburg]

 Punchy Pete, on 15 August 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

So, Envy, Spite and Malice... and if they had a fourth she'd be Venom.

Children of Olar Ethil and Draconus... who are both Azathanai... Very interesting.

And these events are pre-ritual... The Dog Runners are Imass, I am assuming.

This book is answering a lot of questions...

Yet their mother, according to Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu, is Sheltatha Lore.

Its not answering any damn questions!!!

Loved it though.

[Puck]

Mother in spirit. Makes more sense than Draconus sinking so low as to get it on with Sheltatha Lore.

[Punchy Pete]

 Puck, on 16 August 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Mother in spirit. Makes more sense than Draconus sinking so low as to get it on with Sheltatha Lore.

Lower than Olar Ethil?

[Kanese S's]

I couldn't stop myself from looking at this thread.


Anyway... I'm not sure that Sheltatha Lore is really sinking lower than Olar Ethil. I mean, if I was going to... be intimate... with one of them, I'd choose Sheltatha, personally.

[Luzburg]

 Kanese S, on 16 August 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

I couldn't stop myself from looking at this thread.


Anyway... I'm not sure that Sheltatha Lore is really sinking lower than Olar Ethil. I mean, if I was going to... be intimate... with one of them, I'd choose Sheltatha, personally.

T'lan Olar Ethil > the sick Olar Ethil in this book. Jees.

[Aptorian]

I thought Olar Ethil was like a kind hearted monster in this book. The affection between her and Draconus. Her collecting the souls of the two dead Boarderswords. I think there's much more to Olar Ethil than we normally see.

Consider that while she seemed like an evil bitch in TCG she is also the one who was safeguarding the path of hands in DG. She's not always cruel, it's just what she has become.

[Starling]

I agree. Olar Ethil was pretty nasty and twisted towards the borderswords, but there was genuine affection in the relationship between her and Draconus. The ritual twisted all the Imass, so there's no reason why Olar Ethil wouldn't be affected the same way.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think we have to consider that maybe:
1) draconus' daughters are completely unknown outside his household and either they or drac eventually insinuate them into an alliance/relationship where they appear to be drac and sheltatha's daughters. not unthinkable, since Sand doesn't seem to have any foreknowledge of them.

2) the memory udinaas watches is unreliable

3) sukul and menandores information is unreliable (this one could be a symptom of the first)

edit: SA and Menandore might also be suffering from a terminal case of "conversing in an earlier novel" and back then SL really was the girls mother. maybe back then malice wasn't even in the cards. we'll have to see of course, but i hope that however things progress, Envy and Spite continue to act like psychotic pre-schoolers.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 20 August 2012 - 09:50 PM

[Kanese S's]

Politically influential families lying about children's parentage in order to cement alliances?

You don't say?

[waylander001]

 Kanese S, on 20 August 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Politically influential families lying about children's parentage in order to cement alliances?

You don't say?

Hold on! I know I saw that happen somewhere before

[Abyss]

I loved these three in this book.

In particular, i loved the sheer out-of-nowhere that was Spite killing Malice, i LOVED when she showed up during the fight with the doctor, and the next part where they throw her in the oven was evil perfection.

It also added a whole other level to Envy and Spite's clash in TtH.... were they REALLY trying to kill each other, or was there a different goal in mind.

The fact that they simply set off on a murder spree, basically to cover up killing Malice, but mostly because it was what they felt like doing, was priceless.


The Sheltatha thing is vague. The revelation was in one of Udinaas' visions in MT... in theory that's of questionable reliability but that's a pretty specific scene to just handwave...

[Malbolge]

My thoughts on the parentage of the 2 (or 3) sisters as revealed in MT (and a couple of other familial relations), and the discrepancies we're seeing, are that a.) things are going to happen, and b.) we've already had a precedent.

(Crazy?) theory incoming... The precedent is the brothers Purake and their relation to MD. We were always told that they were the 'sons' or 'first sons' of MD, and this was never questioned. Now we find that they aren't the biological children of MD, and that the title ('sons of MD') is just that, a title, an honorific, the position is one of spirit rather than one of blood, say. And the title is never (openly) questioned or commented on... no one says "the sons of MD, who aren't really her sons". Combine that (acceptance by Tiste society for 'adoption' like this) with the whole FL/MD Civil war, creation of Shadow (as something to bring peace between the two) and the Tiste tradition of Hostages. When Light/Dark/Shadow come together in peace, hostages will be traded... but, this won't be the giving of hostages between families, it will be the giving of hostages within a family (MD/FL) and will be more like adoption... those who are adopted will become, in every sense other than blood, the children (or whatever) of their new 'parents'.

As Puck says, Sheltatha Lore would be their Mother in spirit.

Bit more theorising that I'll wrap in spoilers, just incase...

Spoiler

I could also see this fluid/flexible approach to family perhaps explaining some of the other discrepancies between what's revealed in tMBotF and what we're seeing in FoD... Sheltatha Lore being the spawn of Scabandari and Tiam, for example: It could be that Scabandari invites Sheltatha to drink the blood of Tiam, he brings her to this, and so takes on the role of the 'Father'. Similarly, Ossric could bring Sukhul and Menandore to Tiam.

This post has been edited by Malbolge: 29 August 2012 - 01:09 PM

[Roldom]

I dont OE was the threesomes mother, i thought it was killimandros? when arathen meets her and killy goes on about how she should be goddess of love and arathan muses that if the goddess of love was cruel and had three children, what there names would be....

[Kanese S's]

It's pretty expressly stated that Olar Ethil is their mother. However, that's not to say that such should just be assumed correct.

[Drusas Achamian]

[Kanese S's]

Might it be possible that Olar Ethil is Errastas' mother?

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Kanese S, on 12 October 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Might it be possible that Olar Ethil is Errastas' mother?

i'd believe it. they're both pretty insane in that special blood-thirsty elder god kinda way.

[worry]

Wouldn't shock me at all. But we also have Ardata and T'riss who are both currently big mysteries, pre- and post-Vitr. And apparently plenty of unnamed Azathanai, if they have villages.

[nacht]

There were some very interesting references to spite, envy and malice (and venom) that I caught on my second read.

Quote

There was no sense in the world, she decided, much later when she lay sleepless under furs in the carriage. No sense at all. It had surrendered to the facile creatures like her, gliding through life in a glowing penumbra of petty self-obsession, where every unclear comment a slight, and every slight personal, and spite and malice bred like vermin, in whispers and hidden glances.

Quote

A soul made weary of life longed for sordid ends. Rise Herat climbed for the tower, his refuge from which any escape was downward, and the height of which reduced entire lives to smudges crawling on faraway streets, like insects examining the crevices between pavestones. He had earlier this day walked those streets, wandering through stained Kharkanas and its uneasy multitudes. He had looked upon faces by the hundred, watching people hide in plain view, or cleave close to companions and loved ones while offering suspicious regard to every stranger who dared look their way. He had witnessed smug wealth, worn like precious cloaks of invulnerability, and saw in those visages the wilful guarding of things that could not be guarded. He had seen the poverty that every concourse exhibited, figures like bent and tattered standards of ill-luck and failure, although to all others that measure of ill-luck was in itself failure. He had seen flashes of envy and malice in veiled glances;

Quote

Syntara threw up a staying hand, and her face twisted into a mask of spite and venom.

SE might be doing some verbal trickery but another way to interpret it is

1. The Azathanai are bound to an aspect.
2. The aspect can be be physical (Mael) or behavioral (spite, envy, malice)
3. Spite, Envy and Malice are named not only because they have these characteristics but they can actually control these behaviors within others.
4. This is how Envy could control the Seguleh in MoI. Essentially she can amplify that characteristic in others and take over their mind because they cant see anything else
5. It is possible Draconus by his presence was dampening their ability to grow into their aspect. Once Draconus leaves, it appears that their aspect bloomed

And though indirect Envy, Spite and Malice had a significant role in making the Tiste into envious, spiteful, malicious people who destroy each other...

This post has been edited by nacht: 29 January 2013 - 08:22 PM