[Votan]

Kanese S, on 12 October 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

It's pretty expressly stated that Olar Ethil is their mother. However, that's not to say that such should just be assumed correct.

Could you point me to where? I thought it was pretty expressly stated that Kilimandaros was the mother of Envy, Spite, and Malice. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Arathan meets Kilmandaros and then thinks to himself, if she had three cruel children by what name should they be called?

This is a pretty straightforward reference to Envy, Spite, and Malice, and made me think it was Draconus+Kilmandaros=3 sisters, not Olar Ethil.

This post has been edited by Votan: 10 March 2013 - 04:04 PM

[nacht]

Votan, on 10 March 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 12 October 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

It's pretty expressly stated that Olar Ethil is their mother. However, that's not to say that such should just be assumed correct.

Could you point me to where? I thought it was pretty expressly stated that Kilimandaros was the mother of Envy, Spite, and Malice. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Arathan meets Kilmandaros and then thinks to himself, if she had three cruel children by what name should they be called?

This is a pretty straightforward reference to Envy, Spite, and Malice, and made me think it was Draconus+Kilmandaros=3 sisters, not Olar Ethil.

Olar Ethil speaking to Draconus

Quote

Scowling, Olar Ethil set her hands upon her distended belly. ‘They don’t feed her.’
They were silent for a few heartbeats, and then he said, ‘Feren did not deserve that.’ ‘I said I was a cruel goddess and I meant it, Draconus. What care I about who does or who doesn’t deserve anything? Besides, she was already well used. You will have a grandchild to play with and let us be plain: I don’t mean tossing on one knee.

How are they, by the way? Our wretched spawn?’ ‘If they had a fourth sister she would be called Venom,’ Draconus replied. ‘As it is, alas, they have no need for a fourth sister.’

[Votan]

nacht, on 10 March 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Votan, on 10 March 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 12 October 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

It's pretty expressly stated that Olar Ethil is their mother. However, that's not to say that such should just be assumed correct.

Could you point me to where? I thought it was pretty expressly stated that Kilimandaros was the mother of Envy, Spite, and Malice. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Arathan meets Kilmandaros and then thinks to himself, if she had three cruel children by what name should they be called?

This is a pretty straightforward reference to Envy, Spite, and Malice, and made me think it was Draconus+Kilmandaros=3 sisters, not Olar Ethil.

Olar Ethil speaking to Draconus

Quote

Scowling, Olar Ethil set her hands upon her distended belly. ‘They don’t feed her.’
They were silent for a few heartbeats, and then he said, ‘Feren did not deserve that.’ ‘I said I was a cruel goddess and I meant it, Draconus. What care I about who does or who doesn’t deserve anything? Besides, she was already well used. You will have a grandchild to play with and let us be plain: I don’t mean tossing on one knee.

How are they, by the way? Our wretched spawn?’ ‘If they had a fourth sister she would be called Venom,’ Draconus replied. ‘As it is, alas, they have no need for a fourth sister.’

Thanks, I appreciate it. What was Erikson doing with the Kilmandaros quote then? Seems odd, but I know he likes to muddle things. Olar Ethil and Burn anyone? lol.

[nacht]

nacht, on 10 March 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Votan, on 10 March 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 12 October 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

It's pretty expressly stated that Olar Ethil is their mother. However, that's not to say that such should just be assumed correct.

Could you point me to where? I thought it was pretty expressly stated that Kilimandaros was the mother of Envy, Spite, and Malice. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Arathan meets Kilmandaros and then thinks to himself, if she had three cruel children by what name should they be called?

This is a pretty straightforward reference to Envy, Spite, and Malice, and made me think it was Draconus+Kilmandaros=3 sisters, not Olar Ethil.

Olar Ethil speaking to Draconus

Quote

Scowling, Olar Ethil set her hands upon her distended belly. 'They don't feed her.'
They were silent for a few heartbeats, and then he said, 'Feren did not deserve that.' 'I said I was a cruel goddess and I meant it, Draconus. What care I about who does or who doesn't deserve anything? Besides, she was already well used. You will have a grandchild to play with and let us be plain: I don't mean tossing on one knee.

How are they, by the way? Our wretched spawn?' 'If they had a fourth sister she would be called Venom,' Draconus replied. 'As it is, alas, they have no need for a fourth sister.'

It is interesting that you mentioned this. It does look a little out of place but the children he might be referring to could be the Forkrul.

Quote

He returned to his cooking, adding more chips to the fire, but the chill would not leave him. If a goddess of love had cruel children, he wondered, by what names would they be known?

[nacht]

from TTH

Quote

Alas, it did not occur to either twin that their father understood all too well the potential danger of his daughters forged together in alliance. And in shaping them – as carefully, as perfectly as he shaped Dragnipur itself – he had done what he could to mitigate the risk.
And so, as they walked side by side up the street, in Spite’s mind she had already begun scheming her fateful stab into her sister’s back. While Envy amused herself with virtually identical thoughts, roles reversed, naturally.

Wait, Spite and Envy are twins (fraternal?). For some reason I always assumed Spite was older by a few years
And Draconus shaped them consciously. Interesting. I didnt think Draconus could be this subtle.

[Iamme]

nacht, on 18 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

from TTH

Quote

Alas, it did not occur to either twin that their father understood all too well the potential danger of his daughters forged together in alliance. And in shaping them – as carefully, as perfectly as he shaped Dragnipur itself – he had done what he could to mitigate the risk.
And so, as they walked side by side up the street, in Spite's mind she had already begun scheming her fateful stab into her sister's back. While Envy amused herself with virtually identical thoughts, roles reversed, naturally.

Wait, Spite and Envy are twins (fraternal?). For some reason I always assumed Spite was older by a few years
And Draconus shaped them consciously. Interesting. I didnt think Draconus could be this subtle.

Triplets, actually.

[Abyss]

nacht, on 29 January 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

There were some very interesting references to spite, envy and malice (and venom) that I caught on my second read.
...

Excellent quote fu there, rep'd accordingly.

SE might be doing some verbal trickery but another way to interpret it is

Quote

...3. Spite, Envy and Malice are named not only because they have these characteristics but they can actually control these behaviors within others.
4. This is how Envy could control the Seguleh in MoI. Essentially she can amplify that characteristic in others and take over their mind because they cant see anything else
...

Don't think so. She kept Mok asleep with Mokra, and the other Seguleh had already 'lost' to her so they acknowledged her dominance. No 'envy' involved.

Votan, on 10 March 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

...
Thanks, I appreciate it. What was Erikson doing with the Kilmandaros quote then? Seems odd, but I know he likes to muddle things. Olar Ethil and Burn anyone? lol.

nacht, on 10 March 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

...
It is interesting that you mentioned this. It does look a little out of place but the children he might be referring to could be the Forkrul.

Quote

He returned to his cooking, adding more chips to the fire, but the chill would not leave him. If a goddess of love had cruel children, he wondered, by what names would they be known?

I took it as Arathan musing on the nature of love and it's lack in his sisters.
Bear in mind that 'love' isn't exactly an aspect to either Kila or Olar, so the comment is wide open to interpretation, but it really does not support Kila over Olar as their mom.

nacht, on 18 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

from TTH

Quote

Alas, it did not occur to either twin that their father understood all too well the potential danger of his daughters forged together in alliance. And in shaping them – as carefully, as perfectly as he shaped Dragnipur itself – he had done what he could to mitigate the risk.
And so, as they walked side by side up the street, in Spite's mind she had already begun scheming her fateful stab into her sister's back. While Envy amused herself with virtually identical thoughts, roles reversed, naturally.

...And Draconus shaped them consciously. Interesting. I didnt think Draconus could be this subtle.

Indeed. He shaped them to ensure they would never truly trust each other enough to cooperate, so their power would never be united in one goal. Inevitably one would betray the other.

Interesting how this reflects the dealings between draconic soletaken as described by Silchas in TCG as well.

[Citravaghra]

I'm maybe a few weeks late to this discussion, however, I just finished FoD. I really enjoyed the Spite, Envy, and Malice moments. I don't know how to quote other posts yet, so hopefully you can catch what I'm referencing with my points.

1) It's pretty clear (or at least heavily implied) that Olar Ethil is the mother of the three daughters of Draconus.

2) Don't trust anything the Daughters of Shadow have to say. We've met Sheltatha Lore, who is now connected to Sagamander, who is in turn connected to House Dracons. GIven that the trilogy is still 2 books shy of an ending, I think its very plausible that this could be tied in (Creation of the Tiste Edur). I think it's weird, but Sukul Ankhadu is pretty friendly in the books, going as far to bond with Orfantal and looking out for his well-being. I'm curious as to how she becomes crazy as a daughter of shadow.

3) Arathan's thoughts regarding Kilmandaros (Goddess of Love, cruel children...). This is purely speculation, but if some Azathanai are like founding figures of the races, or possibly patrons of a race (OE to the Imass or Draconus to the TIste), is it plausible that Kilmandaros could also be a "patron" in this way. I'm suggesting she's linked as a creator or patron to the Forkrul Assail. Kilmandaros' aspect is a virtue, and that is the highest goal of the Forkrul Assail, to the point where they are cruel and narrow-minded in their pursuits of that. We also know Sechul Lath is the son of Kilmandaros, and in the MBotF he resembles a Forkrul Assail (with multiple jointed limbs). Both Sechul (aka Knuckles) and KIlmandaros fight with their fists, as do the Forkrul Assail.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

1) i agree. I like those three. Funny stuff, and the are quite wicked.

2) i would posit that its drinking the blood of tiam that makes her act da fool.

3) i think thats about right. O think its mentioned elsewhere that they are her erstwhile children. Knuckles' appearance would be another clue. But SE loves misdirection.

[Kanese S's]

Sukul Ankhadu was a very sad character to read about, for me, since she seems to be a caring and principled character in FoD, and we know that later she's a lung-eating, murdering psychopath.

[Kanese S's]

Iamme, on 25 April 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

nacht, on 18 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

from TTH

Quote

Alas, it did not occur to either twin that their father understood all too well the potential danger of his daughters forged together in alliance. And in shaping them – as carefully, as perfectly as he shaped Dragnipur itself – he had done what he could to mitigate the risk.
And so, as they walked side by side up the street, in Spite's mind she had already begun scheming her fateful stab into her sister's back. While Envy amused herself with virtually identical thoughts, roles reversed, naturally.

Wait, Spite and Envy are twins (fraternal?). For some reason I always assumed Spite was older by a few years
And Draconus shaped them consciously. Interesting. I didnt think Draconus could be this subtle.

Triplets, actually.

Interesting. Is that stated? Malice seemed younger than the other two.

[nacht]

Kanese S, on 24 May 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Iamme, on 25 April 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

nacht, on 18 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

from TTH

Quote

Alas, it did not occur to either twin that their father understood all too well the potential danger of his daughters forged together in alliance. And in shaping them – as carefully, as perfectly as he shaped Dragnipur itself – he had done what he could to mitigate the risk.
And so, as they walked side by side up the street, in Spite's mind she had already begun scheming her fateful stab into her sister's back. While Envy amused herself with virtually identical thoughts, roles reversed, naturally.

Wait, Spite and Envy are twins (fraternal?). For some reason I always assumed Spite was older by a few years
And Draconus shaped them consciously. Interesting. I didnt think Draconus could be this subtle.

Triplets, actually.

Interesting. Is that stated? Malice seemed younger than the other two.

It is. I was surprised too.

Quote

He told himself that he remembered his half-sisters’ mother, a brooding, heavy woman with a strange face, who had either died or departed shortly after weaning the triplets she had borne, but a later comment from Tutor Sagander suggested that the woman he’d remembered had been a wet-nurse, a witch of the Dog-Runners who dwelt beyond the Solitude. Still, he preferred to think of her as the girls’ mother, too kind-hearted to give them the names they now possessed – names that, to Arathan’s mind, shackled each sister like a curse.

[The Hust Legion]

im hoping draconus really beats the shit out of them when he gets home because what they did.........
also if they are azathanai (are they half or full) can they turn into any form they want
grizzin farl said that he could take any form he wanted to mother dark
so im assuming that enzy and her sis could do
and im guessing they wreak even more havoc when they realise this

[Felisin Fatter]

Perhaps Draconus created them in an attempt to control the spite, envy and malice that are destroying the Tiste? To 'excize' it, perhaps, or to at least keep a close eye on it. Pretty stupid of him to let them out of his sight, and he should have known that, so it's puzzling. But so is his entire trip away from his seat of power. Which indeed lets spite, envy and malice (the creatures and the emotions both) grow rampant. Another 'metaphor made flesh', how SE loves those

In my reread, I too enjoy the liberal sprinkling of the words spite, envy, malice, venom in the text. More and more, the triplet seems central to the whole story. In a thematic way, I mean, not in the sense that they control events. Draconus remains a complete mystery though, I still have no idea what his motives are.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

My theory is that the Tiste are Draconus' creation. And they were straying from his intended path so he he came among them and tried to right the ship, so to speak, and then we have FoD.

[HoosierDaddy]

If that is the case, there is some quasi-oedipal stuff going on with Draconus.

[Kanese S's]

HoosierDaddy, on 04 February 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

If that is the case, there is some quasi-oedipal stuff going on with Draconus.

Dat olde time religion.

[tiam]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 04 February 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

My theory is that the Tiste are Draconus' creation. And they were straying from his intended path so he he came among them and tried to right the ship, so to speak, and then we have FoD.

Its pretty much stated that the FA are Kilys, the Imass are OEs while the Tiste are Draconus 'children; isnt it? We have no idea why these azathanai created these races other than because they could. I think Draconus is only involved with his creations because he fell in love with MD who jumped from the Spar of the Andii into chaos without fear. Isnt there a POV that deals with House Dracons fairly recent rise at the start of FOD? He did well in the war and became a much bigger player after that sort of thing.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated that they are his get. Just hints, allegations, things left unsaid. I guess I shouldn't have said "theory" so much as "operating premise until otherwise convinced". I do remember that part about Mother Dark jumping into Chaos. Its Tulas telling Sharenas about when Mother Dark saw the dragons as she stood at the Spar of Andii. So I did a little research...

Draconus was the heir to Lady Dracons who died suddenly some time before FoD. Then he earned Mother Dark's respect during the Forulkan Wars. I think this is from Ivis' POV early in the book, and he said something about not knowing who Draconus was or where he came from, only that he was the lady's distant cousin.

Haut later tells Korya this on their journey to the spar:

Quote

Haut's hand met her back, solid as stone. 'Unwise, hostage. To look upon Chaos is to yield to its invitation. For that, I am most sorely tempted. It is said,' he went on, the axe-head crunching on the bedrock as he let the weapon down, 'that Mother Dark did not hesitate. She leapt into that wild realm. And returned, but not the same woman she had been before. Now, she would turn her back upon Chaos, a champion of all that it is not.'

Later Varandas talks to Korya about the sorcery that Draconus gave Mother Dark, but she's lost in it.

THere is the part where Grizzin Farl is talking to Mother Dark after she was gifdted with the Gate of KG, and he says this:

Quote

‘Lord Draconus brought to you his gift, his power. He is the first Azathanai to have done this solely for those who dwell in his domain.’ Grizzin Farl hesitated, and then said, ‘I did not know that your children were ignorant of your Consort’s true nature.’

So then all that we know for sure is that the Tiste are of his "domain".

There may be another part that relates her actual jump into Chaos that I have missed.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 04 February 2014 - 05:35 PM

[kempster]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 04 February 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated that they are his get. Just hints, allegations, things left unsaid. I guess I shouldn't have said "theory" so much as "operating premise until otherwise convinced". I do remember that part about Mother Dark jumping into Chaos. Its Tulas telling Sharenas about when Mother Dark saw the dragons as she stood at the Spar of Andii. So I did a little research...

Draconus was the heir to Lady Dracons who died suddenly some time before FoD. Then he earned Mother Dark's respect during the Forulkan Wars. I think this is from Ivis' POV early in the book, and he said something about not knowing who Draconus was or where he came from, only that he was the lady's distant cousin.

Haut later tells Korya this on their journey to the spar:

Quote

Haut's hand met her back, solid as stone. 'Unwise, hostage. To look upon Chaos is to yield to its invitation. For that, I am most sorely tempted. It is said,' he went on, the axe-head crunching on the bedrock as he let the weapon down, 'that Mother Dark did not hesitate. She leapt into that wild realm. And returned, but not the same woman she had been before. Now, she would turn her back upon Chaos, a champion of all that it is not.'

Later Varandas talks to Korya about the sorcery that Draconus gave Mother Dark, but she's lost in it.

THere is the part where Grizzin Farl is talking to Mother Dark after she was gifdted with the Gate of KG, and he says this:

Quote

‘Lord Draconus brought to you his gift, his power. He is the first Azathanai to have done this solely for those who dwell in his domain.’ Grizzin Farl hesitated, and then said, ‘I did not know that your children were ignorant of your Consort’s true nature.’

So then all that we know for sure is that the Tiste are of his "domain".

There may be another part that relates her actual jump into Chaos that I have missed.

I had gotten the impression that the domain of Draconus was actually darkness and that the big secret so to speak was that it was all his power of darkness that MD kind of fell into... and that was possibly the reason Rake ended up Dragnipuring him for his .... what was the term....audacity.... not quite right... maybe it was arrogance. Anyway.... guess we will see.

Cheers