[Egwene]

I am in the middle of the book and loving every minute of it.

There are certainly a few confusing ideas floating around in it!

I, too, find Sukul's story arc difficult. My guess is that something terrible happens to someone she loves and it changes her.

Arathan does ponder the cruelty that can be in the giving of names several times in the earlier parts of the book. I have not yet got to his meeting with Kilmandaros but going by his previous ponderings, I think it may be more along those lines. I do believe that OE referring to them as 'our spawn' and speaking of her three memories of pain that this is an extremely strong indication of joined parentage of the triplets.

[Tony-t]

what EXACTLY are the azathanai. What do they lok like. Or are they kind of just nothing that take on the appearance of anything they want? olar ethil chooses the appearace of the imass draconus's appearance in the CG

[Egwene]

We don't as yet know that much about them but they are the top of the tree or the ultimate root, depending whether we are talking power or ancestry, by the look of things. Think of them as the ultimate Gods I guess. They seem to have been responsible for the creation of most of the races. There is probably a connection to the Vitr. The place is likley called 'The Shores of Creation' for a good reason.

We do know that thy tread around each other carefully and that they are able to take on any shape they like. Some seem to prefer the shape of those races that they are mostly associated with so Draconus=Tiste, Kilmandaros=Assail...

This post has been edited by Egwene: 22 April 2014 - 04:52 PM

[Coltainer]

This book completely changed the way I look at Envy and Spite. Previously I thought they were hot awesome powerful chicks. Now i just think they are hot psychopathic chicks. Why has no one raised up the incredibly evil things they did to their step brother and Malice? I felt so bad for Malice... Meanwhile everyone is talking about possibly family tree's. Not how horribly twisted and insane they were at a young age.

This post has been edited by Coltainer: 24 August 2014 - 03:23 AM

[Andorion]

Coltainer, on 24 August 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

This book completely changed the way I look at Envy and Spite. Previously I thought they were hot awesome powerful chicks. Now i just think they are hot psychopathic chicks. Why has no one raised up the incredibly evil things they did to their step brother and Malice? I felt so bad for Malice... Meanwhile everyone is talking about possibly family tree's. Not how horribly twisted and insane they were at a young age.

You mean Envy didn't give you the psychopathic vibe earlier?

[Saitama]

Coltainer, on 24 August 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

This book completely changed the way I look at Envy and Spite. Previously I thought they were hot awesome powerful chicks. Now i just think they are hot psychopathic chicks. Why has no one raised up the incredibly evil things they did to their step brother and Malice? I felt so bad for Malice... Meanwhile everyone is talking about possibly family tree's. Not how horribly twisted and insane they were at a young age.

Hahaha I agree 100%. I used to think that Envy was awesome in a 'hot but totally disconnected from the reality' kind of way. After reading OST and especially FOD? Bitch be crazy. I wonder how on earth Anomander thought it was a good idea to hook up with her. Must have been a temporary eleint-induced insanity.

[The Old Guard]

Well, Envy yes, but Spite struck me as an unsubtle character. Also, she saves Barathol Mekhar, Chaur and the others at some point in TtH before going full berserk against her twin.Also, after seeing what Spite did on Jacuruku in B&B I didn't get the idea that she was this cold-blooded killer we see in FOD.I thought she was an extremely impulsive and violent individual who hated her sister, but not a killer.

[Jaime Lannister]

Coltainer, on 24 August 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

This book completely changed the way I look at Envy and Spite. Previously I thought they were hot awesome powerful chicks. Now i just think they are hot psychopathic chicks. Why has no one raised up the incredibly evil things they did to their step brother and Malice? I felt so bad for Malice... Meanwhile everyone is talking about possibly family tree's. Not how horribly twisted and insane they were at a young age.

Yeah, I agree. Envy was one of my favorite characters in MoI -- I enjoyed seeing her engage in badinage with other characters (notably Toc) and the way she comported herself was oddly endearing. I got the impression that she was capricious and prone to amorality, but it never struck me that she was psychopathic or malevolent before.

I hated reading passages involving her - not because they were poorly written - but because they were making me dislike and root against a character I used to be so fond of. That she and her sisters (presumably) will never be held to account for the atrocities they visited on the household is also a bit annoying.

This post has been edited by Jaime Lannister: 09 August 2015 - 12:38 PM

[Aptorian]

I think it helps if you think of the sisters, even as children (perhaps particularly as children), as the personifications of elemental powers. Their names are not sunshine and rainbows. They can only be what they were born to be, especially considering the upbringing it appears they had.

Do you hate the sea when it swallows a ship? Do you rage at the sky when a Tornado wipes out a town? It only does what is in its nature.

Spite and Envy are definitely bad children but half a million years have passed. The Envy and Spite we meet in present day are not quite the same.

[Jaime Lannister]

Apt, on 09 August 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

I think it helps if you think of the sisters, even as children (perhaps particularly as children), as the personifications of elemental powers. Their names are not sunshine and rainbows. They can only be what they were born to be, especially considering the upbringing it appears they had.

Do you hate the sea when it swallows a ship? Do you rage at the sky when a Tornado wipes out a town? It only does what is in its nature.

Spite and Envy are definitely bad children but half a million years have passed. The Envy and Spite we meet in present day are not quite the same.

I agree with everything you've said. Although, I wish the sisters weren't as indistinguishably evil as they were in this book. Envy, Malice and Spite are three distinct appellations, each signifying different things. By their behavior it seemed to me that all three might as well have been named Malice. For ex. someone named Malice committing wanton mass murder might be understandable, but I'd expect the other two to also be actuated by what their names suggest. It would have more appropriate if Spite had reason to spite, and Envy to be envious; of those they killed in this book -- rather than just going on an indiscriminate murder spree through the house IMO.

[Lycaenion]

Jaime Lannister, on 10 August 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

Apt, on 09 August 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

I think it helps if you think of the sisters, even as children (perhaps particularly as children), as the personifications of elemental powers. Their names are not sunshine and rainbows. They can only be what they were born to be, especially considering the upbringing it appears they had.

Do you hate the sea when it swallows a ship? Do you rage at the sky when a Tornado wipes out a town? It only does what is in its nature.

Spite and Envy are definitely bad children but half a million years have passed. The Envy and Spite we meet in present day are not quite the same.

I agree with everything you've said. Although, I wish the sisters weren't as indistinguishably evil as they were in this book. Envy, Malice and Spite are three distinct appellations, each signifying different things. By their behavior it seemed to me that all three might as well have been named Malice. For ex. someone named Malice committing wanton mass murder might be understandable, but I'd expect the other two to also be actuated by what their names suggest. It would have more appropriate if Spite had reason to spite, and Envy to be envious; of those they killed in this book -- rather than just going on an indiscriminate murder spree through the house IMO.

It's been a while, but didn't they go on the murder spree because they were afraid of Draconus coming home and finding out what they did? So they just decided to kill every potential witness instead?

[Jaime Lannister]

Lycaenion, on 10 August 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

It's been a while, but didn't they go on the murder spree because they were afraid of Draconus coming home and finding out what they did? So they just decided to kill every potential witness instead?

I was re-reading the passage were they were plotting and I sort of got the impression that they had been fantasizing about this for some time, and this was merely the pretext Envy used to make it seem necessary. Spite suggests as much herself:

Quote

Spite smiled knowingly. 'You just want to know what it feels like.'

(referring to the act of murdering someone)

Otherwise their actions don't really make much sense. There were no witnesses to the murder of Malice. Envy merely thought that they should kill anyone who may notice her absence. Though that begs the question: What's the point in killing all those people? Including all the maids, servants etc.? Draconus will eventually return and notice Malice is absent, and if upon arrival he sees the better part of his household gone too, that would only make it more suspect.

[Andorion]

Envy, Spite and Malice were all born as socio/psychopaths. At a young age I think the only thing that restrained their nature was Draconus. The Envy and Spite we see in the main series are hundreds of thousands of years older. They have gone through different experiences, made different decisions. This has turned Envy into the whimsical force of destruction we see in MoI. Spite is seemingly more balanced. But in FoD we see them in the raw primal stage, where all they have is their unbridled aggression and murderousness. A point worth noting though is they never lose their fear of Draconus. Do you rememember OST?

[Jaime Lannister]

Yeah, if I recall correctly Envy fainted after her interaction with Draconus near the end of the book. And I agree with what you've said, as I never objected to Envy's portrayal in this book as an inconsistency or anything -- the sheer amount of time that has elapsed makes believable that their innately malevolent nature could be tempered.

It still took me off-guard though. I mean, I expected them to be bad as children, but so bad as to derive pleasure from mass murdering innocent people? Didn't see that coming at all.

[Felisin Fatter]

The mass murder is highly disturbing, but at least as disturbing is that even before that, they raped (by proxy) both Arathan and Malice. And thereby caused the insanity and murder of a dog, for those more affected by the suffering of animals... (And I fervently hope Draconus was never stupid enough to have hapless servants' children on his estate...) And that was with Draconus tempering them and their powers still chained up. So yes, sociopaths of the worst kind, natural born sadists.
Oh, and also very 'cute' how it was really Spite, not Osserc, who murdered that man by crushing his throat one-handed (eek). And made Osserc like it (double eek).


I guess later, they just got tired of it (same old, same old, right?) and became smarter and more political.

[theocean]

Can anyone explaing the whole dying to unleash power thing they were talking about. Both with themselves as well as with Arathan almost dying.

[Felisin Fatter]

It seems to be how Azath kids mature. They grow fairly normally for about 9 years (the size of the evil triplet) then probably just... stop? And Arathan nearly drowning caused him to start growing again, though it took a while for him to come into his power after that. All their actual and relative ages are highly ambigous. I think it also has to do with Draconus' presence 'chaining' them, preventing them from growing in some ways. Since things only escalate when he is far away,

[Kanese S's]

Coltainer, on 24 August 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

This book completely changed the way I look at Envy and Spite. Previously I thought they were hot awesome powerful chicks. Now i just think they are hot psychopathic chicks. Why has no one raised up the incredibly evil things they did to their step brother and Malice? I felt so bad for Malice... Meanwhile everyone is talking about possibly family tree's. Not how horribly twisted and insane they were at a young age.

Puberty is a difficult time.