[tiam]

Raised many empires and let them fall yes but only as a result of the curse placed upon him in the moi prologue which is way after this and way before the main arc which leaves a good hundred thousand years for him to have empires rise and fall

[Ivan Kersovic]

I can't believe I actually looked this up, but here is the quote fu for you:

Quote

"Can you keep hiding us Errastas?"

"I doubt it. We must truly flee the lands of the Azathanai and the Jaghut."

"Then do we travel to the Jheck? The Dog-Runners? Surely not the Thel Akai!"

"None of those, for the borders they share with the Azathanai. No, we must cross the sea, I think."

"Sechul Lath started, and then scowled. "Whither fled Mael? He will not welcome us."

"Indeed not," Errastas agreed. I think...beyond his realm, even."

"The High Kingdom? Those borders are closed to the Azathanai."

Btw there's been some debate about the Dog Runners but they're clearly the Imass. Firstly because of the mention of Jaghut Tyrants ruling them, secondly they run with the Ay and thirdly because Burn is an Imass Bonecaster. The Eres'al were mentioned in the book as having left for the deep south long ago.

[Aptorian]

Copy pasted from the reading thread.

Just finished the book. Overall impression, as an entry into the list of Malazan Books, a great book that tells us so many things that we have wanted to know. As a stand alone fantasy book? Overly long, meandering and a bit boring. I think the final judgement of this book will rest upon the completion of the trilogy. As an opening book that sets the stage for the other two books it does a good job of laying the ground work but as a stand alone story it was not very satisfying, lacked any feeling of build up and climax and felt like it was spread to thin. In my opinion.

This is probably, I think, the first book he has written that lacks a convergence. And it sort of hurts the book I think, but seeing as this is a trilogy, it may turns out that this was an investment in a series where the third book is the convergence. Then again, the same was said about The Crippled God and that book I felt was anything but a convergence. It feels like he began a lot of stories in this one, leaving them open for a wrap up in the coming books. The Civil War is beginning, The War on Death is starting, the Hold Warrens are emerging, Dragons are appearing... promising stuff, all though I wonder if anything but the Civil War and the split between the Tiste will get full disclosure in these three books.

In terms of "epicness" I felt the story was lackluster. The Tiste are just yet another flawed civilization. For some reason I had expected them to be... better. More alien. With their own faults sure, but unlike human beings. I would think that creatures that have life spans of up to 2000 years (as stated in the book) would have much more different world views and a stranger culture. Surely something would happen to a people that live for upwards of millenia. A divergence in the population where the elders attain some kind of reverence or something. Where the scope of the peoples ambitions and thinking change as their lives unfold.

Similarly I did not get much of an understanding of their civilizations scope. During the book all you see of Kurald Galain really, is the Citaldel in a city you don't know how big is along with a lot of castles and military outposts. From the map it doesn't look like Kurald Galain is bigger than Denmark or Scandinavia (tiny countries) yet, supposedly, millions and millions of Tiste must have lived in Kurald Galain at this time considering the size of the Tiste armies that have invaded Lether in Midnight Tides, yet their civilization does not feel particularly big, advanced or uplifted. Maybe that's just me not paying enough attention to the details given. I don't know.

I don't like the way that Darkness and Light emerges in this book. It was a nice surprise that the Tiste Andii were once just Tiste and the darkness and light came later, but the way they come to it is... well, it's bumbling into greatness. Light is by chance awarded a fickle priestess, who gives the light to a military commander during a staff meeting? That's not particularly awesome. Darkness unfolding does not happen at some great event with all the Tiste present but is just a random moment where Draconus pops out of Narnia and throws it on the ground in a big confusion and to Mother Darks horror? That's some what of an anti-climax. Now granted that is the way we know Erikson likes to do these things, and we now shit is about to go down as all these new powers emerge but... it felt kind of meh.

My biggest gripe with the story is a personal one. I have a story telling pet peeve. I hate, HATE, when stories are based on omission or misunderstandings. Pretty much this entire conflict is based on the rape of Enesdia(sp?) and the assignment of guilt. Everyone agrees that all these killings and terror is not the work of Urusander, but one done by rebels, but now they need to go fight Urusander anyway? WHY?!? Similarly, Urusander and co just sit around on their asses doing fuck all while reports come in of murder and terror done in their name. They chose to do nothing and don't even send a messenger to Kharkanas to say "Dreadfully sorry about this whole mess but we are innocent, cheerio oh old chap, pip pip." WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!? I can not for the life of me understand how woefully inept the diplomatic channels are in this ancient civilization. Worst of all, why haven't anybody killed Hunn Rhal yet!? Every body seems to recognize that he is a viper plotting against everything yet nobody does anything about it? Really? Why doesn't Urusander have him killed or at least sever his ties to him? I don't get it.

I was indifferent of or out right hated many of the characters he spent so many pages on. I was oddly satisfied when he killed off the Boarderswords. I had feared I would be forced to follow them through 3 books when all I wanted was to be done with them. Harad needs to die in a fire as well but I am sure he has some kind of evolution planned for that one. I certainly hope that fantastic things are in store for all these characters that popped up but went no where. The other side of this coin of course is the tons of named characters we get to meet for this first time or just in a new light. Scabandari seems like he will become a great character. Orfantal is promising. So is Rise Herat, Endest, Osserc, Spinnock, Arathan and many others.

On the other hand there were story sections that really pulled me in. The T'riss parts were great, anything with the Purake brothers, the parts with Envy, Spite and Malice (holy shit those kids are fucked up), Draconus and Arathan, Haut and that Tiste Mhybe. I loved ever page dedicated to the Azathanai and Jaghut. SO MUCH GOOD STUFF. Tons and tons of information given to us there.

I wonder how much attention Hood and the War on Death will get as well as the emrgence of the new gates.

The blurb on the back of the book stated that a threat was rising from the seas. It only arrived on the last page which was something of a bummer really. Are we supposed to believe the dragons are the threat?

I'm sort of rambling now but I'd give the book 3 torn out eyeballs out of 5. I want to give it 4 but as a stand alone book it didn't really do anything for me.

EDIT: By the way, am I the only one who sort of likes Olar Ethil now? I loved the part where her and Draconus show affection for one another and he she complains that the Dog runners (Imass?) are making her fat. On the other hand she sort of turned into the scariest creature in the entire series what with her "eat your head with my fat stomach" bit.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 10 August 2012 - 07:58 PM

[tiam]

As i said i might well have it wrong thanks for looking it up. I think i remember it as past his realm so imagined it somewhere different. Regarding apts comment of lack of epicness esp in regards to the birth of the liosan i completely agree it felt smaller. Also according to this book andii only live 2000 odd years which makes little sense.

[champ]

Rereading parts at the moment and I came across this, I won't type it out - or cannot be bothered - as it's a fair few lines but...

Page 513 Hard back, three paragraphs up from the bottom that starts: 'Just so,' Haut nodded...

From there to page 514 half way down I figured that passage somewhat a message to us fans! Typical SE, brilliant, if that is what it is!

[waylander001]

champ, on 10 August 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Rereading parts at the moment and I came across this, I won't type it out - or cannot be bothered - as it's a fair few lines but...

Page 513 Hard back, three paragraphs up from the bottom that starts: 'Just so,' Haut nodded...

From there to page 514 half way down I figured that passage somewhat a message to us fans! Typical SE, brilliant, if that is what it is!

Ha ha - I wondered would anyone else pick that out, I actually highlighted most of the passage and that whole 1st paragraph in my Kindle version. Here it is in full:

Haut - Korya

Quote

Haut: Yet what I would speak of this morning is but the beginning of a tale. It is without borders, and it's players are far from dead, and the story is far from finished. To make matters even worse, word by word I weave truths and untruths. I post a goal to events, when such goals were not understood at the time, nor even considered. I am expected to offer a resolution, to ease the conscience of the listener, or earn a moment or two of false comfort, with the belief that proper sense is to be made of the living, just as in a tale.

Korya: By this You mean to tell me that you are a poor tellet of tales. Fine, now please get on with it.

Haut: It may surprise you, but your impertinance pleases me. To an extent. The young seek quick appeasement and would flit like hummingbirds from one gaudy flower to the next, and so long as the pace remains torrid, why, they deem theirs a worthy life. Adventure and excitement, yes? But I have seen raindrops rush down a pane of glass with similar wit and zeal. And I would accord their crooked adventure a value to match

I got the exact same feeling you did when reading that first paragraph and so then maybe read a little more into the 2nd and third parts than maybe I should have - but I'd say the first at the very least was definitely aimed at his readers.

After that passage he uses Haut to do something he rarely does for us - and spoon feeds us a massive amount of info about the Azathanai. That was another reason the passage stood out for me.

This post has been edited by waylander001: 10 August 2012 - 11:15 PM

[Pig Iron]

I think it worked great thematically, like old folk tales taking life (not thinking of the modern censored ones, more Alan Garner). Both the Azathanai and the emergence of the Dark and Light feels primeval and slightly creepy. The Tiste are an early civilization (though far from first) and having to take on the aspects are more of a curse. Mankind on Wu later on gets a better deal with warrens that are more predictable and scientific rather than religious, weaker maybe but more there to be used without the drama. Maybe Im notnmaking sense, but something like that.

And the Jaghut just become better and better with every book.

[ShadowOwl]

I totally enjoyed this book, was masterfully written! So much information, was an eye opener to read, and see how what we thought we knew, really came about. Looking forward to finding out so much more in the next books.

One thing that caught my eye, was the family of Hunn Raal, the Issgins. I remembered that name from the Crippled God, (see pg 428 - 430 HC) when Kallor went to Saranas to tell the Liossans of the death of his wife? queen? She was named Serap Issgin and had lived there and run away to Kallor. I like how SE ties things together even when he's blowing them up on us! Serap Issgin was the cousin of Hunn Raal. Nice connection with the mention of a High King in this novel.

Also in MOI, Envy mentions a brother, who helped heal Fanderay when she was badly injured after the fall of the CG. Possible now it could be Arathan.
And I loved how the Azathani are revealed as shapeshifters. Shadowthrone calls Quick Ben that in Gardens. Since he investigated the Azath so much maybe he knows more than we ever thought. Also in Gardens, QB is very familiar with Chaos and soul shifting, the latter which was one of the jaghut's gifts.

In the CG, when at the spar of Andii, QB uses a knotted piece of horse hair with blood on it plus the Andii royal sceptre to make his chaos horse. In Forge, we now know the Azathani made that sceptre, we've seen the entity named T'riss who could be an Azathani, use a knotted circle made of grass to make a horse, and Malice who is also azathani (being daughter of Draconus and Olar Ethil) speaks to Arathan of using a lock of his bloody hair to make a knotted circle to bring him back if Draconus kills him.

Long story short, I think this points to QB being a child of Azathani. He is probably in Forge, just not old enough to manifest being one yet. Really can't wait to find out who on earth Quick really is!
Ruthann Gudd is a known shapeshifter too, so no doubt Azathani, or at least part, and quite possibly related to Quick.
So much to look into and forward to!

[Aptorian]

ShadowOwl, on 12 August 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Also in MOI, Envy mentions a brother, who helped heal Fanderay when she was badly injured after the fall of the CG. Possible now it could be Arathan.
And I loved how the Azathani are revealed as shapeshifters. Shadowthrone calls Quick Ben that in Gardens. Since he investigated the Azath so much maybe he knows more than we ever thought. Also in Gardens, QB is very familiar with Chaos and soul shifting, the latter which was one of the jaghut's gifts.

I would not describe that Elder Gods as shapeshifters after hearing Protectors description of themselves. They choose what ever form they want. This isn't like a bonecaster turning into a wolf. They can be anything it would seem.

ShadowOwl, on 12 August 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

In the CG, when at the spar of Andii, QB uses a knotted piece of horse hair with blood on it plus the Andii royal sceptre to make his chaos horse. In Forge, we now know the Azathani made that sceptre, we've seen the entity named T'riss who could be an Azathani, use a knotted circle made of grass to make a horse, and Malice who is also azathani (being daughter of Draconus and Olar Ethil) speaks to Arathan of using a lock of his bloody hair to make a knotted circle to bring him back if Draconus kills him.

Long story short, I think this points to QB being a child of Azathani. He is probably in Forge, just not old enough to manifest being one yet. Really can't wait to find out who on earth Quick really is!
Ruthann Gudd is a known shapeshifter too, so no doubt Azathani, or at least part, and quite possibly related to Quick.
So much to look into and forward to!

I hope Quick isn't a child of an Azathanai that would be stupid. The theory goes that one of his souls is half jaghut, half something else and that he probably has a Tiste Andii soul as well, as of TCG. When Quick Ben soul shifts he doesn't turn into a squirrel or a dragon or something obvious like that. He shifts personalities, memories, powers. Different personalities become dominant.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 13 August 2012 - 03:29 AM

[Fid]

Found OE's consumption of Raskan reminded me of Neil Gaiman's American Gods when Bilquis "swallows" a client whole....

[amphibian]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 05 August 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Also why is Sinnock not really old and Enddest is? We see that there both of similar age and that theolder Tiste in this book are only around 2000 years old yet Spinnock is spritely in the new series but Enddest isnt. My initial thought was he was broken via holding Moons Spawn but even in the Nimander flashbacks Endest is an old man. How did they even live so much longer than some of the Andii here? Korlat and Orfantal aswell as some others mentioned have draconian blood explaining their longevity but how is Spinnock still there.

Towards the end of FoD, we see an already broken Endest. His faith has been shaken already and the effects are visible enough that people can see it writ upon his face.

[Silk]

"Light is by chance awarded a fickle priestess"

Quoted line above, my interpretation on this is that whatever the Errant did to create the portable gate for draconus inserted a bit of himself into it and as such a bit of a nudge so to speak in the assignment as he is essentially blood thirsty and knows a war is about to break ...... so why allow it to go to a sheep when a rabid wolf would be better?

[Vaddon Ra]

Iamme, on 05 August 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Caladan Brood! He is older than Rake...and not barghast. Book is turning everything on it's head. How can that weakling be Osserc? Osserc was bastard of father light!

Osserc isn't weak, Huun Raal says somewhere amongst all the words that he is the strongest man he has ever met. He's just immature and spiteful but apparently very strong they never actually say caladan is barghast they saythey think he has barghast blood, but then why not he's ancient, what do the post burns sleep guys know
im just glad he's in the book....as is

wait for it!!!








HOOD

[fdomain]

I just can't wait to see how Shadow will come out of all this, but I'm guessing that won't be until the 3rd book in the series :/

[fdomain]

Aptorius, on 10 August 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Copy pasted from the reading thread.


EDIT: By the way, am I the only one who sort of likes Olar Ethil now? I loved the part where her and Draconus show affection for one another and he she complains that the Dog runners (Imass?) are making her fat. On the other hand she sort of turned into the scariest creature in the entire series what with her "eat your head with my fat stomach" bit.

I agree she does seem like a slightly more sympathetic character now, even with the eat your head bit. Bit of confusion though on the whole she's an Azathanai no wait she's an Imass Bonecaster no wait she's a... but I guess after FoD a lot of the Azathanai make for curious future characters...

[Dragnipurake]

Read it last weekend, absolutely loved the book. Actually liked this better than the last few of the main series, even though it lacks the usual convergence at the end. It is incredible the number of surprises SE managed to spring despite the eventual conclusion being known.

Really found it funny that the three brothers' skin/hair color is different because of the belief or its lack of, in MD.

[Crow Clan Baby]

And just finished too, with a day passed to give myself some time to mull over it.

I think that "it was the best of times, it was the worst of times" would be a decent summary of my overall impression, although "worst" is maybe too strong a word here. It was really enjoyable learning about the Tiste origins, and there's enough interesting stuff set up for the next two to keep me happy.

The lack of everything coming together in a huge crash at the end was odd for sure, but Erikson's the author and it's his prerogative. I respect that and I trust him in this; he knows what he's doing and won't let us down.

On the minus side I found this one to be maybe the most difficult read since TtH. The overall pattern of the book came across as alternating between cool, interesting and fun stuff that kept things moving and huge bouts of "ANGST! PHILOSOPHY! ANGST! PHILOSOPHY!" On the other hand, some of that "ANGST! PHILOSOPHY!" was very skilfully woven into the more story-related stuff, which pleasantly surprised me by working very well. Where it stood on it's own it did prove to be an almighty slog, though.

This isn't really a complaint - like I said, Erikson's the author and it's his prerogative. I do think he's evolving better at this style of writing now, but still has a (small-ish) way to go, and I intend having the enjoyment of being there with him for it.

Final opinion is that it's a worthy first entry in this trilogy, stands equal with many of the MBotF titles in overall quality, and contained enough new info and surprises to make the story more interesting and keep me looking forward to the rest of the trilogy. If that sounds like damning with faint praise it must be remembered that this is Erikson, so by default it's automatically at least twice as awesome as almost anything else, and scales are relative.

This post has been edited by Crow Clan Baby: 10 September 2012 - 10:07 PM

[fingon]

I just finished FoD and feel overwhelmed by the amount of new info that needs to be processed.

First, it is brilliant how Erikson plays with myth. We see the myth being transformed into history.
Mother Dark is not the Elemental Being we all thought to be, when we positioned her above all entities, even Elder Gods.

Sorcery is -finally- a bit more tidy in Erikson's world. All those wild uses of sorcery all over the Books of the Fallen are wiped out by a simple magic system:
Azathanai aka the Elemental Beings of the world, probably existing pre-creation are the sole manifestations of Magic.
Krul decides to share his magic with everybody, thus opening the way to mages and ascendancy
And each individual Azathanai provides magic to the people it protects.
Also, I do not think that the Azathanai created their corresponding peoples, I just believe they gave them their aspect and elevated them.
Giving such a vast superiority to the Azathanai though it becomes a problem when re-reading the main series.
At least at the time of the Malazan Empire, those surviving Azathanai do not seem all that powerful:
Errant is afraid that a human Paran may have become more powerful.
Caladan Brood does not get into any serious action, he doesn't seem quite like the Elemental Being he is supposed to be (actually we all thought he was a human Ascendant)
I guess all this may be explained by the new paths to ascendancy opened by Krul's gift.

Another major theory that gets sundered by FoD is that of the founding races. Again we read that whatever was myth in the Malazan times, was not the correct truth. We do not have the whole picture yet, but Wu does not seem like being a part of this world, thus making all of the founding races a lie. I bet the High King is Kallor, so neither are humans native to Wu (someone said there's a quote that only the K Chain are native).

And finally a great revelations is in my eyes the creation of the warrens and gates. It seems like nothing existed before Draconus gift to MD, or it was only accesible to the Azathanai.

To my speculations/questions now:

1. Those gates that were created, actually make it possible to visit other other realms already existing, right? Death's realm, Darkness realm etc. Is it probable that some Azathanai's aspect opens a gate to the Wu realm?

2. The Azath are vaguely mentioned by Errastas. I did not quite figure out what he meant. He talkes about worshiping the stone etc. The Azath again seem older than everything else, which makes me wonder if they are not sentient beings, but some kind of aspect opposed to Power, since its motive is to contain those that get extremely powerful.

3. The Eleint. When will we finally get to answer at least half the answers we have about them? Right now they seem to be connected to the Vitr. Is it their power source? It does not fit though with the title "Shores of Creation", but then again, whose creation does it refer? Maybe the Eleints'. Tiam getting into the story will definitely fill some gaps. Until then, my theory is that the Eleint are a species aspected to Chaos, their Azathanai creator probably being Tiam (theory mentioned in another thread), strengthened/altered by the Vitr.

4. I did not get the part with Burn. She seems Imass to me, not Elemental. Still, her later manifestation seems a lot more close to an Azathanai than an Ascendant

[Crow Clan Baby]

Just doing a re-read of The Crippled God at the moment, and right there in the first few pages is this "holy fuck" moment:

Quote

Did she not abandon her consort and take you for her own?

Said by a Tiste Liosan addressing Father Light. And it's pretty damn obvious who "she" and "her consort" are now, isn't it? Just --- wow. Erikson, you mad talented bastard, you. This is why I read your books.

This post has been edited by Crow Clan Baby: 15 September 2012 - 01:17 AM

[Asharak]

Ivan Kersovic, on 09 August 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

I can't believe I actually looked this up, but here is the quote fu for you:

Quote

"Can you keep hiding us Errastas?"

"I doubt it. We must truly flee the lands of the Azathanai and the Jaghut."

"Then do we travel to the Jheck? The Dog-Runners? Surely not the Thel Akai!"

"None of those, for the borders they share with the Azathanai. No, we must cross the sea, I think."

"Sechul Lath started, and then scowled. "Whither fled Mael? He will not welcome us."

"Indeed not," Errastas agreed. I think...beyond his realm, even."

"The High Kingdom? Those borders are closed to the Azathanai."

Btw there's been some debate about the Dog Runners but they're clearly the Imass. Firstly because of the mention of Jaghut Tyrants ruling them, secondly they run with the Ay and thirdly because Burn is an Imass Bonecaster. The Eres'al were mentioned in the book as having left for the deep south long ago.

And the descriptions of their features, burial rituals and mood swings. Everything is exactly like the Imass are described in the main series.