[Soulcrusher]

Just two small quesitons, I am about 100 pages in, have read the book before I ever discovered any of SE's books in the series, so am doing a re-read since I finished Reapers Gale.

Question One,
I don't really understand how the Crimson Guardsman can be so old, Stoop said he was 160 years old, but the Malazan Empire has not been around even 100 years. Can anyone explain this?

Question Two,
Why is Mael such a dick? I've never liked Mallick and it seems weird that Mael is helping him, I know that he's a High Priet of Mael but still, Mael would hardly notice one high priest if he went missing. He always seemed so awesome, or kind of 'good' in the Letheras Saga.

Thanks <3

[Sinisdar Toste]

1. They're Avowed. pay close attention to that word when and where it crops up. they vowed to return their prince to his lands, and it was a little stronger than usual.

2. mael is an elder god, he can be in a lot of places at once, and has a lot of avatars. mallick is using mael anyway. once mael's worship starts to come back in quon tali, mallick loses his hold of mael's power because he's no longer the only one 'worshipping' mael.

[Soulcrusher]

I understand that they're Avowed, But my issue is that there is no way they can be that old and be Avowed, Unless the Malazan Empire has been around ALOT longer than I ever thought it was, There is just no way that the vow could have taken place 80 Years ago.

[tiam]

Soulcrusher, on 15 July 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

Just two small quesitons, I am about 100 pages in, have read the book before I ever discovered any of SE's books in the series, so am doing a re-read since I finished Reapers Gale.

Question One,
I don't really understand how the Crimson Guardsman can be so old, Stoop said he was 160 years old, but the Malazan Empire has not been around even 100 years. Can anyone explain this?

Question Two,
Why is Mael such a dick? I've never liked Mallick and it seems weird that Mael is helping him, I know that he's a High Priet of Mael but still, Mael would hardly notice one high priest if he went missing. He always seemed so awesome, or kind of 'good' in the Letheras Saga.

Thanks <3

Im unsure where your problem lies. If your unsure why Stoop is so old in regards to his longevity then it has to do with him being Avowed. If it concerns you how Stoop is 160 when the Malazan Empire is only 100 it is mentioned that Stoop was the Siegemaster of Duke Kenussen Davore, the current Prince Kazz father most likely, and thus has served the family for generations and is one of, if not the, oldest Avowed.

EDIT- Just saw your post. Im unsure why the Vow could not have taken place over 80 years ago. It fits in with the book as when the CGRD return to Unta, we see a POV of Shimmer I think expecting either welcoming citizens or outright hostility rather than simply bemusement which is what happens. A main theme of ROTCG is that they are no longer entirely relevant to their world anymore.

In regards to Mael the link between EG and their worshippers is fickle more so with the Jhistal Cult of Falar. We know next to nothing of them apart from they were persecuted by Kellenved for their manipulation of their gods. Thus he had control over Mael until Mael became worshipped once more, that was what the flowers were symbolizing at the end of ROTCG.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 15 July 2012 - 07:45 PM

[Kanese S's]

Soulcrusher, on 15 July 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

I understand that they're Avowed, But my issue is that there is no way they can be that old and be Avowed, Unless the Malazan Empire has been around ALOT longer than I ever thought it was, There is just no way that the vow could have taken place 80 Years ago.

80 years ago is actually pretty decent estimate for when it took place.

How can the T'lan Imass be so old? It's a similar sort of deal. The Vow wasn't just like you saying "I vow that this will happen" right now. It was a ritual. A powerful one.

[Soulcrusher]

It's more that I don't believe that the Malazan empire was around for them to Vow against 80(estimate) years ago,

[worry]

Ah, then you're just wrong about the facts. The empire is older than you think.

[Kanese S's]

Yep.

[D'rek]

Soulcrusher, on 15 July 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

but the Malazan Empire has not been around even 100 years.

Yes it has. When Laseen took the Throne, the Malazan Empire was about 100 years old. By the time of RotCG, it is roughly 110 years old.

[Ivan Kersovic]

The timeline is really weird anyway, it's best not to question it to be honest. A lot of the soldiers in the early books are veterans of various Quon Talian wars, which presumably happened when they were maybe 10-15 years younger, but if the Empire was still subduing Quon Tali even 30-40 years before the present that doesn't leave a lot of time for the Seven Cities/Korel/Genabackis campaigns. It also begs the question what exactly the Empire did between the conquest of Kartool and the final subjugation of Li Heng (which is mentioned a few times as one of the campaigns current-age people were veterans of). I wish I could quote some stuff as backup, but alas my collection is at home.

Anyway it mentions in House of Chains that some Untan general beat Duke Kenussen Davore (iirc) and conquered the D'Avore lands. Obviously this was pre-Malazan, with the Malazan conquest of Unta coming later. Again this clouds the timeline though, because if I remember in RotCG it's mentioned that "the citadel" or wherever the vow was taken was the last stronghold in Quon Tali, and when the Empire marched on it they all took the vow. If that's the case then either the Li Heng wars etc which are mentioned were an uprising which came later or it's just a timeline issue. Or the Crimson Guard is much younger than we think, which as OP says would make Stoop well over a hundred when he actually took the vow, which is a bit unlikely unless he had access to the expensive rituals/alchemies which prolong life.

Anyway no point arguing about the timeline, it makes no sense.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Ivan Kersovic, on 16 July 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

The timeline is really weird anyway, it's best not to question it to be honest. A lot of the soldiers in the early books are veterans of various Quon Talian wars, which presumably happened when they were maybe 10-15 years younger, but if the Empire was still subduing Quon Tali even 30-40 years before the present that doesn't leave a lot of time for the Seven Cities/Korel/Genabackis campaigns. It also begs the question what exactly the Empire did between the conquest of Kartool and the final subjugation of Li Heng (which is mentioned a few times as one of the campaigns current-age people were veterans of). I wish I could quote some stuff as backup, but alas my collection is at home.

Anyway it mentions in House of Chains that some Untan general beat Duke Kenussen Davore (iirc) and conquered the D'Avore lands. Obviously this was pre-Malazan, with the Malazan conquest of Unta coming later. Again this clouds the timeline though, because if I remember in RotCG it's mentioned that "the citadel" or wherever the vow was taken was the last stronghold in Quon Tali, and when the Empire marched on it they all took the vow. If that's the case then either the Li Heng wars etc which are mentioned were an uprising which came later or it's just a timeline issue. Or the Crimson Guard is much younger than we think, which as OP says would make Stoop well over a hundred when he actually took the vow, which is a bit unlikely unless he had access to the expensive rituals/alchemies which prolong life.

Anyway no point arguing about the timeline, it makes no sense.

actually, li heng is one of the first places on quon tali to fall, and it was taken when kellenved discovered the first throne in a cavern beneath the city and raised logros t'lan imass. they killed the protectress and the city fell before anyone knew what was happening.

the soldiers in the early books are most assuredly not veterans of quon talian conflicts. the only people who are still alive from that time are those in kellenved's 'family' - those who stayed with him and dancer in the deadhouse on malaz isle. There was the two of them, surly, the crusts, amaron, dassem, nok, his wife, tayschrenn, and dujek. the bridgeburners never fought on quon tali. they were created during a war of re-conquest in seven cities, after the place had rebelled (it apparently does this like clock-work every generation), and were then integral to the conquest of genebackis.

dujek fought in the wickan wars, which is where he lost his arm to bult, but other than him and the other 'family' members, all the people who took part in the original conquest of the quon talian nations are dead, some literally, others less so (logros).

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on 16 July 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Ivan Kersovic, on 16 July 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

The timeline is really weird anyway, it's best not to question it to be honest. A lot of the soldiers in the early books are veterans of various Quon Talian wars, which presumably happened when they were maybe 10-15 years younger, but if the Empire was still subduing Quon Tali even 30-40 years before the present that doesn't leave a lot of time for the Seven Cities/Korel/Genabackis campaigns. It also begs the question what exactly the Empire did between the conquest of Kartool and the final subjugation of Li Heng (which is mentioned a few times as one of the campaigns current-age people were veterans of). I wish I could quote some stuff as backup, but alas my collection is at home.

Anyway it mentions in House of Chains that some Untan general beat Duke Kenussen Davore (iirc) and conquered the D'Avore lands. Obviously this was pre-Malazan, with the Malazan conquest of Unta coming later. Again this clouds the timeline though, because if I remember in RotCG it's mentioned that "the citadel" or wherever the vow was taken was the last stronghold in Quon Tali, and when the Empire marched on it they all took the vow. If that's the case then either the Li Heng wars etc which are mentioned were an uprising which came later or it's just a timeline issue. Or the Crimson Guard is much younger than we think, which as OP says would make Stoop well over a hundred when he actually took the vow, which is a bit unlikely unless he had access to the expensive rituals/alchemies which prolong life.

Anyway no point arguing about the timeline, it makes no sense.

actually, li heng is one of the first places on quon tali to fall, and it was taken when kellenved discovered the first throne in a cavern beneath the city and raised logros t'lan imass. they killed the protectress and the city fell before anyone knew what was happening.

the soldiers in the early books are most assuredly not veterans of quon talian conflicts. the only people who are still alive from that time are those in kellenved's 'family' - those who stayed with him and dancer in the deadhouse on malaz isle. There was the two of them, surly, the crusts, amaron, dassem, nok, his wife, tayschrenn, and dujek. the bridgeburners never fought on quon tali. they were created during a war of re-conquest in seven cities, after the place had rebelled (it apparently does this like clock-work every generation), and were then integral to the conquest of genebackis.

dujek fought in the wickan wars, which is where he lost his arm to bult, but other than him and the other 'family' members, all the people who took part in the original conquest of the quon talian nations are dead, some literally, others less so (logros).

Not exactly... there are "Old Guard" who were not part of "The Family" and so did not stay in the Deadhouse, who are still alive, but as important members of the Empire they did have access to age-lengthening alchemies and healing, or there are some that are mages who naturally live longer. Some examples of mages would be Hairlock, A'Karonys and Tattersail. Another example would be Braven Tooth, who everyone keeps being surprised is still alive because he put all his back-pay into life-prolonging Denul rituals.


Conquests-wise, Ivan please quote the passages you are referring to, as I don't recall any mentions of non-Old Guard saying they were (personally) part of any wars on Quon Tali or Falar other than the Wickan rebellion (which was failry recent - probably about 20-40 years before DG).

More importantly, though, conquests don't finish all in a week. When the Empire started out (and we don't really know when they date the first year of the Empire to - could have been retro-actively dated to the day they took over Malaz Island, even though they hardly had an "empire" at that time), they couldn't field very many troops so gains would have been small pieces, one at a time. After they took Li Heng, there was still plenty more provinces on Quon Tali to attack, and on all sides. Conquering Quon Tali entirely probably took decades. Only once they had large conquered areas in Quon Tali could they field entire armies all at once to begin conquests of other places - 7C, Stratem and Falar being next (with Stratem being at least as large as Quon Tali, though the objectives was much more narrow, and 7C being much larger than Quon Tali). Likewise, the Crimson Guard didn't all suddenly fight the Empire in one big battle. The Avore family had holdings all across the sub-continent, so Crimson Guard forces would have fought the Empire for decades. Who knows when in that span of time the Citadel was attacked, or when the Vow was sworn (not necessarily at the same time).

[Ivan Kersovic]

Quote

She knew these to be hardened men and women, veterans of the siege of Li Heng and the Wickan Wars out on the north plains. But something had been clawed into their eyes that had left them raw and exposed.

- Admittedly GotM and therefore dubious anyway, but that's Adjunct Lorn at the slaughter outside of Itko Kan

Quote

"Her father lost an arm at the siege of Li Heng," Crokus said, shaking his head...

Deadhouse Gates referring to Apsalar's father, who doesn't seem to be ancient, being a fairly ordinary fisherman.

RotCG spoiler... not sure how far through OP is.

Spoiler

Quote

Fiddler scowled. "Soldiers are always underestimated," he said. "I've not spent fifteen years fighting imperial wars with my eyes closed. The Emperor clashed with both Treach and Ryllandaras outside Li Heng. I was there."

That puts that particular squabble inside the last fifteen years, unless Fiddler was a child observing it. Obviously there is no guarantee the Emperor locked up the man jackal as soon as Li Heng fell, but RotCG does imply that's the case.

And it does specifically say in RotCG that the vow was sworn at the fall of the citadel, which was the last place on QT to fall.

Quote

Eventually, after decades, the last of their ancestral holds, the D'Avore family fastness in the Fenn Mountains, fell. The Citadel it was called.

For some reason I think the vow was made in 1066 Burns Sleep, which would put it in the first ten years of the Empire-ish. Which would mean the Empire would have to have been proclaimed midway through the above decades of fighting on QT, not when Mock was beaten. But that makes everyone above even older.

That's where my confusion comes from anyway. But there are plenty of other examples of where the timeline makes no sense. I mean Whiskeyjack is mentioned as once being Dujek's commanding officer, despite him being relatively young at the beginning of GotM and Dujek supposedly being part of the Emperor's original family. Seems a bit weird Dujek would be Whiskeyjack's inferior at that stage. Dujek is also mentioned by Nok in House of Chains as being part of the original "family" before the entry into the deadhouse (ergo before founding of the Empire) despite as many people have said the Empire being something like 98 years old at the beginning of the first book at Dujek specifically aged at 79.

But like I said, the timeline doesn't really matter.

This post has been edited by Ivan Kersovic: 17 July 2012 - 08:10 AM

[D'rek]

Ivan Kersovic, on 17 July 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Quote

She knew these to be hardened men and women, veterans of the siege of Li Heng and the Wickan Wars out on the north plains. But something had been clawed into their eyes that had left them raw and exposed.

- Admittedly GotM and therefore dubious anyway, but that's Adjunct Lorn at the slaughter outside of Itko Kan

Quote

"Her father lost an arm at the siege of Li Heng," Crokus said, shaking his head...

Deadhouse Gates referring to Apsalar's father, who doesn't seem to be ancient, being a fairly ordinary fisherman.

Whatever "siege of Li Heng" the above quotes are referring to is not the same as the original conquest of Li Heng.
(DoD spoiler)

Spoiler

In a Throatslitter PoV in DoD, we learn that the original conquest of Li Heng was nothing like a "siege" - one day everything was fine, then suddenly T'lan Imass showed up and Dancer killed the Protectress, resulting in the city being conquered in a few hours. Definitely not what I would call a "siege".

Ivan Kersovic, on 17 July 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

RotCG spoiler... not sure how far through OP is.
[spoiler]

Quote

Fiddler scowled. "Soldiers are always underestimated," he said. "I've not spent fifteen years fighting imperial wars with my eyes closed. The Emperor clashed with both Treach and Ryllandaras outside Li Heng. I was there."

That puts that particular squabble inside the last fifteen years, unless Fiddler was a child observing it. Obviously there is no guarantee the Emperor locked up the man jackal as soon as Li Heng fell, but RotCG does imply that's the case.

And it does specifically say in RotCG that the vow was sworn at the fall of the citadel, which was the last place on QT to fall.

Quote

Eventually, after decades, the last of their ancestral holds, the D'Avore family fastness in the Fenn Mountains, fell. The Citadel it was called.

There's a difference between "the last place on QT to fall" and "the last of [the D'Avore family] ancestral holds [...] fell"

Where does it say the Vow was sworn at the Citadel? I recall a "[X number] swords were sworn to K'azz that day/night" kind of passage, but not one referencing the Vow directly.

Ivan Kersovic, on 17 July 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

That's where my confusion comes from anyway. But there are plenty of other examples of where the timeline makes no sense. I mean Whiskeyjack is mentioned as once being Dujek's commanding officer, despite him being relatively young at the beginning of GotM and Dujek supposedly being part of the Emperor's original family. Seems a bit weird Dujek would be Whiskeyjack's inferior at that stage. Dujek is also mentioned by Nok in House of Chains as being part of the original "family" before the entry into the deadhouse (ergo before founding of the Empire) despite as many people have said the Empire being something like 98 years old at the beginning of the first book at Dujek specifically aged at 79.

But like I said, the timeline doesn't really matter.

Not a problem at all. In the GotM prologue WJ dispatches Fiddler with orders to send Dujek out to reign in Tattersail's cadre, so right there is confirmation that WJ was at one point a higher rank than Dujek. Furthermore, WJ was commander of the Bridgeburners, and was then promoted (to Fist?) out of the BBs, who were then commanded by Korbolo Dom, and after that Dujek - another example of Dujek being lower ranked. This makes perfect sense considering Dujek was very young when he joined "The Family" and that he was not a soldier. Unlike, say, Urko, Dujek had no military experience and probably didn't start a military role until late in his life, whereas WJ probably started as a soldier at a very young age and so had a head start on Dujek.

[Sinisdar Toste]

ah, forgot about all those who got alchemical and magical longevity, rather than deadhouse longevity. i imagine toc elder and lubben are some of those too.

apsalar's father could have lost his arm in the same incident that saw kellenved fighting treach and trapping ryllandaras. there's a lot of time for people to decide they want to rebel against the tyrant who's ruled for decades upon decades.

[Ivan Kersovic]

Well like I said the timeline is troublesome. There's a big difference between "feasably not the same event" and "leaves enough space to be retconned as something else". Fair enough Li Heng might have fallen in some sort of second after the protectress had been assassinated, and it's possible that inbetween the first conquest and the second Ryllandaras was just wandering around the Seti plains. I just think it was probably a timeline mistake which was left deliberately vague.

Spoiler

In RotCG there's a lot of storyline inside of Li Heng surrounding the various mages and council members. Don't get me wrong, I'm not providing any cast iron quotes here, but I only re-read it recently and it didn't feel like the Hengese had just underwent a siege within the last fifteen years. It's possible, it just didn't feel like the whole locking up of Ryllandaras etc was a recent event. Dusty chambers, the swords of the protectress locking the gates, the "woe unto he who releases the man jackal" stuff would seem a bit flat if he'd been locked up recently.

SE himself has said there are quite a few examples of that. I could list others- for example that when he's travelling Raraku Heboric starts getting visions, and effectively places the end of the First Empire (the beast ritual) at 9000 years before the present day. Later in Midnight Tides we learn the first Empire lost contact with their colonies more than 70k years ago, and that the first empire was a contemporary of Kallor's empire.

On Whiskeyjack I totally accept he was Dujek's superior officer at one point, but that doesn't mean the timeline isn't a bit messed up. I mean according to every source we have, Dujek is 79 in GotM. The Empire was in it's 105th year at the beginning of Gardens, which means Dujek was born 26 years after the founding of the Empire, and even if he was ten years old when he signed up that would mean the Empire was 35 years old when he got involved, which means he couldn't concievably be part of the original "family", and in fact he was born after the invasion of kartool, the vow, and all the early events of the Empire. However even if we accept this inconsistency, in the prologue of Gardens when Whiskeyjack dispatches Dujek it's the 96th year of the Empire, meaning that Dujek is either 70 years old or (if we go for the "Dujek lies about his age" theory and he was part of the original family) over a hundred. I just found it a bit weird that whilst all other members of the Emperor's family were given senior positions in charge of navies, assassin clans, armies etc, Dujek (who is an old guy either way here) is still at a rank of Captain or something serving under Whiskeyjack in charge of a provincial army. I'd be gutted if I was him.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well, there is no doubt deliberate vagueness, and some of the pieces don't fit too well, but i think i prefer that. it gives us space to concoct possibilities. i don't think dujek ever says the words, "I've lived for x years," so i'm content to believe that any age given by another character, either as a guess or as something they think they know, could be incorrect. also, WJ is way younger than dujek any way you slice it. the malazan army under dassem was a meritocracy. WJ showed that he was more able than dujek, so for a time he was above him. in dujeks many years, he's held ranks aplenty, and seen things few can boast of. i doubt he's gutted.