[Salt-Man Z]

Reading Tolkien's The Children of Húrin and it's amazing.

[QuickTidal]

Soon, I will be embarking on one of the more difficult reading excursions of my life. Reading all Tolkien's Middle-Earth books in chronological order beginning with THE SILMARILLION. I'm aware how daunting such an undertaking is and how rough the course material is...but I still want to do it.

Luckily, this guy teaches a course on it at a Washington University and he podcasted his class doing it a chapter at a time...so I will be listening to that to get through.

Anyways, wish me luck. I'll probably be blogging about it, but I won't post about it until I get into the thick of it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 23 May 2012 - 12:55 AM

[Salt-Man Z]

QuickTidal, on 22 May 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Soon, I will be embarking on one of the more difficult reading excursions of my life. Reading all Tolkien's Middle-Earth books in chronological order beginning with THE SIMARILLION. I'm aware how daunting such an undertaking is and how rough the course material is...but I still want to do it.

I'm doing much the same thing! Except I'm starting with The Children of Húrin because I want to get the "full" story before I read the abbreviated accounts in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.

[Dutch]

QuickTidal, on 22 May 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Soon, I will be embarking on one of the more difficult reading excursions of my life. Reading all Tolkien's Middle-Earth books in chronological order beginning with THE SIMARILLION. I'm aware how daunting such an undertaking is and how rough the course material is...but I still want to do it.

Luckily, this guy teaches a course on it at a Washington University and he podcasted his class doing it a chapter at a time...so I will be listening to that to get through.

Anyways, wish me luck. I'll probably be blogging about it, but I won't post about it until I get into the thick of it.

I have done this a couple of times before I discovered the Malazan Book of the Fallen.

Don't ask me which version of the Silmarillion I have, it was my first and only book that was written in "old" English full of hither and thither and who knows what.
It did leave me confused a couple of times.

Still, the Silmarillion is quite a treat.

Have fun.

[QuickTidal]

Salt-Man Z, on 22 May 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 22 May 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Soon, I will be embarking on one of the more difficult reading excursions of my life. Reading all Tolkien's Middle-Earth books in chronological order beginning with THE SIMARILLION. I'm aware how daunting such an undertaking is and how rough the course material is...but I still want to do it.

I'm doing much the same thing! Except I'm starting with The Children of Húrin because I want to get the "full" story before I read the abbreviated accounts in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.

I started my journey. The class highly recommends Tolkien's 1951 letter to publisher Milton Waldman basically outlining the entire First and second age events in a bit of a nutshell before embarking on the actual text of the thing. It was like a 30 page letter, but it gave me a VERY solid grounding in what I will read in the Silmarillion itself, so automatic kudos to this podcasted course for already helping me along the trail. According to the professor (one Corey Olsen), there is a string of 7 or 8 names that if I keep straight I will be okay.

Chris, I contemplated grabbing that one first as well, but in the end decided on straight up chronological, so I'll get the summary in this book first and read the full text for the piece down the line.

The tentative plan is to complete THE SILMARILLION, UNFINISHED TALES, Christopher Tolkien's a History of Middle Earth and the periphery stuff like CHILDREN OF HURIN in time for December's release of THE HOBBIT. Though that's probably significant wishful thinking.

At any rate, I've already had a crash course in pronunciation (which funnily enough with the accents and umlauts, Tolkien essentially built the pronunciation into each term and name...to a level that humbled me once I learned it), and the letter summary, and also the six or seven names that are most important and if I keep them straight I'll be fine.

Chris, if you finish Hurin and wish to catch up and read along with me on this book, let me know as I am going to be going slow trying to drink it in and understand as much as possible.

This is the course site BTW: http://www.tolkienpr...e/more-tolkien/

and each seminar is available on iTunes free as podcasts.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 23 May 2012 - 12:55 PM

[Nocturnal]

Salt-Man Z, on 22 May 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Reading Tolkien's The Children of Húrin and it's amazing.

I only read a story about Turin and the rest of the family in Unfinished Tales and Silmarilion and it felt so much different than anything else Tolkien wrote. It was really bitter from the mere beginning and the conclusion was just devastating. I could never read the whole book.

[QuickTidal]

Nocturnal, on 25 May 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 22 May 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Reading Tolkien's The Children of Húrin and it's amazing.

I only read a story about Turin and the rest of the family in Unfinished Tales and Silmarilion and it felt so much different than anything else Tolkien wrote. It was really bitter from the mere beginning and the conclusion was just devastating. I could never read the whole book.

That's pretty much the call sign of the First and Second age though, it never goes exactly well...And the difference in the writing is a difference in style and tonal values (of a theosophic tale told by the Elves [a lot of which is told in metaphor] of their early history as opposed to a properly written down book of events by a Hobbit [in this case Bilbo and Frodo]). While it is not easy to read about such bleakness, I think it's wonderful to flesh out the world in that way.

I say this since I am currently reading THE SILMARILLION.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 25 May 2012 - 12:55 PM

[Nocturnal]

QuickTidal, on 25 May 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Nocturnal, on 25 May 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 22 May 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Reading Tolkien's The Children of Húrin and it's amazing.

I only read a story about Turin and the rest of the family in Unfinished Tales and Silmarilion and it felt so much different than anything else Tolkien wrote. It was really bitter from the mere beginning and the conclusion was just devastating. I could never read the whole book.

That's pretty much the call sign of the First and Second age though, it never goes exactly well...And the difference in the writing is a difference in style and tonal values (of a theosophic tale told by the Elves [a lot of which is told in metaphor] of their early history as opposed to a properly written down book of events by a Hobbit [in this case Bilbo and Frodo]). While it is not easy to read about such bleakness, I think it's wonderful to flesh out the world in that way.

I say this since I am currently reading THE SILMARILLION.

Yes, I did enjoy the style of writing in the books I mentioned even though they ruined my impression of Noldor Elves (those bastards!). I also loved the story about Hurin's family, but it emotionally destroyed me at the time, since I wasn't used to that amount of bleakness in Tolkien's works. Honestly, I would've handled it easier if the ME people were all butchered by Morgoth than this emotional catastrophe.

[QuickTidal]

Nocturnal, on 25 May 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Yes, I did enjoy the style of writing in the books I mentioned even though they ruined my impression of Noldor Elves (those bastards!). I also loved the story about Hurin's family, but it emotionally destroyed me at the time, since I wasn't used to that amount of bleakness in Tolkien's works. Honestly, I would've handled it easier if the ME people were all butchered by Morgoth than this emotional catastrophe.

Yeah, Tolkien doesn't skimp on emotional distress. Haha! I mean look at even LOTR. Sméagol has to be one of the most tragic and saddest, broken characters ever...and even Frodo gets close to the same broken point, and the only reason he succeeds is Sam..."Come on Mr. Frodo I can't carry it for you...but I can carry you!" I mean say what one will about that bravery and the like but that moment is still utterly filled with bleak, sadness.

I think the one thing I am getting from the podcast-ed course I am listening to for THE SILMARILLION (as they talk about it chapter by chapter) is that Ilúvatar (Eru, god basically) is aware of the strife in which Arda endures constantly (even calling it Arda Marred (capital A and M), but that the only REAL respite from all things bad won't come till the end end of days (Arda Healed). Which is also bleak. LOL

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 25 May 2012 - 02:05 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Yeah, The Children of Húrin is definitely a tragedy. I finished it (veeeery late) last night, and it was fantastic.

[Nocturnal]

QuickTidal, on 25 May 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Nocturnal, on 25 May 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Yes, I did enjoy the style of writing in the books I mentioned even though they ruined my impression of Noldor Elves (those bastards!). I also loved the story about Hurin's family, but it emotionally destroyed me at the time, since I wasn't used to that amount of bleakness in Tolkien's works. Honestly, I would've handled it easier if the ME people were all butchered by Morgoth than this emotional catastrophe.

Yeah, Tolkien doesn't skimp on emotional distress. Haha! I mean look at even LOTR. Sméagol has to be one of the most tragic and saddest, broken characters ever...and even Frodo gets close to the same broken point, and the only reason he succeeds is Sam..."Come on Mr. Frodo I can't carry it for you...but I can carry you!" I mean say what one will about that bravery and the like but that moment is still utterly filled with bleak, sadness.

I think the one thing I am getting from the podcast-ed course I am listening to for THE SILMARILLION (as they talk about it chapter by chapter) is that Ilúvatar (Eru, god basically) is aware of the strife in which Arda endures constantly (even calling it Arda Marred (capital A and M), but that the only REAL respite from all things bad won't come till the end end of days (Arda Healed). Which is also bleak. LOL

I spotted that "the end of days" or "the last battle" - Dagor Dagorath are mentioned a lot. Gives me the chills every time, really. There can be no peace in Arda until everyone is slaughtered, basically. Obviously Tolkien was highly religious.

This post has been edited by Nocturnal: 25 May 2012 - 05:39 PM

[QuickTidal]

Nocturnal, on 25 May 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

There can be no peace in Arda until everyone is slaughtered, basically.

Yup. Pretty much. LOL!

What I find infinitely telling though (about Tolkien especially) is the notion that in amongst all this strife, never ending strife i fact, infighting amongst the Valar, Maiar of crew, and down through everyone else...you get places like Rivendell, and the Shire...where for all intents and purposes one CAN live a peaceful and relatively idyllic life. I think that may be the point too...and that kind of makes me happy.

We are gonna get in trouble for derailing the thread though...LOL...unless one of our Admin friends wishes to split this stuff off into a Tolkien thread (or GH could necro one for us).

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 25 May 2012 - 05:45 PM

[QuickTidal]

Moved from Reading thread: (thanks for the topic merging Abyss )

Being about halfway through THE SILMARILLION I am still wholly entertained, though I can see where some folk would find it complex. Beginning at the Valequenta section which is basically a long, dramatis personae of the gods, and the early chapters that concern a lot of metaphor...and then later there is Chapter 14 (OF THE LANDS OF BELERIAND) which is, for all intents and purposes, a MAP of the lands of Northern Middle-Earth as TOLD out loud by the elves. Yeah, so it's a MAP...being read (...and on the far side of the river Gelion was Thogothron and Dor Whatshisnuts where So-And-So dwelt) and CAN come across as both difficult and boring since the protagonists of the chapter are actually the rivers and there is no plot progression...BUT...what we can get from it is language, as in that chapter I learned Dor means Land or Kingdom, and so when Tolkien mentions places like Doriath I know that is the land of the fence (since we know that's where Melian and Thingol and the rest of the Sindar dwell). It's boring but it serves a purpose. Everything else since the Elves showed up and the Men showed up has been total cream and I've been enthralled, from Fëanor's oath onwards things just get awesome!

I'm still listening to the Professor Tolkien podcasts (as they go chapter by chapter), but once I got ahold of the majority of the names of gods and elves and locations and machinations (I think somewhere around the time the Fëanor takes the Noldor to leave the undying lands, chapter 8 perhaps?) I began to get totally sucked into the story and I started really reading ahead...a lot...so now as opposed to listening to the podcasts for each chapter explicitly before going on I am reading ahead as I may and listening to the podcasts whenever I am out and walking (be it with the dog, or just out shopping) I'm still getting the extra help and insight the 'casts give me, but I get to read ahead. And once it gets good, it gets REALLY good.

[QuickTidal]

Here's my first Year Of Tolkien post comprising my thoughts about THE SILMARILLION. Enjoy!

http://icebergink.bl...lmarillion.html

[Salt-Man Z]

QuickTidal, on 04 June 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Here's my first Year Of Tolkien post comprising my thoughts about THE SILMARILLION. Enjoy!

http://icebergink.bl...lmarillion.html

I'll respond here just because of the increased chance of conversation.

It's been 10-12 years since I last read Tolkien (I seem to read him every 10-12 years: first in 5th grade, for the second time at or near the end of college, and now) although I did start this go-round's Middle-earth adventure with the standalone The Children of Húrin. Though that familiarized me with some of the major players of the First Age, it didn't really reveal much else of the backstory or mythology of Middle-earth. So I went into The Silmarillion more or less cold. And I devoured it with little trouble; I think the maps, index, and genealogies were comprehensive enough to understand the proceedings when necessary.

Two takeaways I had: First, that Tolkien must have been very much inspired by E. R. Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros, as they feel very similar, especially in regards to the high language used. Secondly, I was struck by just how Christian the mythology of Arda is, and all of the parallels of the Christian faith and creation story. Certainly not surprising, given Tolkien's own views, but I had been previously aware of the similarities, and wow did they resonate with me. I'm kinda curious what an athiest reader makes of that.

[QuickTidal]

Salt-Man Z, on 04 June 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 June 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Here's my first Year Of Tolkien post comprising my thoughts about THE SILMARILLION. Enjoy!

http://icebergink.bl...lmarillion.html

I'll respond here just because of the increased chance of conversation.

It's been 10-12 years since I last read Tolkien (I seem to read him every 10-12 years: first in 5th grade, for the second time at or near the end of college, and now) although I did start this go-round's Middle-earth adventure with the standalone The Children of Húrin. Though that familiarized me with some of the major players of the First Age, it didn't really reveal much else of the backstory or mythology of Middle-earth. So I went into The Silmarillion more or less cold. And I devoured it with little trouble; I think the maps, index, and genealogies were comprehensive enough to understand the proceedings when necessary.

Two takeaways I had: First, that Tolkien must have been very much inspired by E. R. Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros, as they feel very similar, especially in regards to the high language used. Secondly, I was struck by just how Christian the mythology of Arda is, and all of the parallels of the Christian faith and creation story. Certainly not surprising, given Tolkien's own views, but I had been previously aware of the similarities, and wow did they resonate with me. I'm kinda curious what an athiest reader makes of that.

Re: The Christian paralells. Oh indeed, those are quite prevalent. Most especially in the genesis and creation of Arda, more specifically with Ilúvatar (God) and the Valar (Angels I guess?). For the first 100 pages or so it's very clear that Tolkien's Catholic views were present, but where I really enjoyed it was where he began with Christian viewpoints he then spidered it out using other religions and myths (Like the fact that the Valar begin more or less as angelic beings, and then there is Melkor's fall mirroring Lucifer's fall ect...but as they come into the world they begin to move off into more polytheistic Norse or Greek style "The God of..." Like Manwë being the god of the sky and the wind and eagles, and Aulë being the god of smithing, Nienna the Goddess of Sadness and Sorrow ect. So he begins with this very clear Christian allegory and moves it in various ways and peppers it with other religions and faiths as well...while it never loses the core "one major god" part...but that the Valar are left to make decisions are they will. I think one of the best bits from that beginning was Aulë's making of the dwarves against Ilúvatar's wishes because he simply could not wait. It's funny, he makes the same presumptuous change to "the music" as Melkor did, but he repents, god forgives him and the punishment is that the dwarves will show up later after the Elves do. It felt like it got less and less directly allegorical of the Christian faith as the chapters went on, but it still never left it behind as it still jumps out at you now and again. As an athiest, I found it as fascinating as I do most religions. Regardless of my views, the level of detail here just shows you how deep faiths go around the planet. And I do like that Tolkien never thought that other faith's were "wrong", but rather different interpretations of the same basic premise and thus could all be included. I think he brings that to Arda, and in my humble opinion I thought it only serves to make it richer.

Them's my two cents, spend them as you may.

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

I've only read The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales once, and that was a long time ago. Once I've worked my way through my existing to-read pile, I may start on a similar thing as you chaps.

[Salt-Man Z]

QuickTidal, on 04 June 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Re: The Christian paralells. Oh indeed, those are quite prevalent. Most especially in the genesis and creation of Arda, more specifically with Ilúvatar (God) and the Valar (Angels I guess?). For the first 100 pages or so it's very clear that Tolkien's Catholic views were present, but where I really enjoyed it was where he began with Christian viewpoints he then spidered it out using other religions and myths (Like the fact that the Valar begin more or less as angelic beings, and then there is Melkor's fall mirroring Lucifer's fall ect...but as they come into the world they begin to move off into more polytheistic Norse or Greek style "The God of..." Like Manwë being the god of the sky and the wind and eagles, and Aulë being the god of smithing, Nienna the Goddess of Sadness and Sorrow ect. So he begins with this very clear Christian allegory and moves it in various ways and peppers it with other religions and faiths as well...while it never loses the core "one major god" part...but that the Valar are left to make decisions are they will. I think one of the best bits from that beginning was Aulë's making of the dwarves against Ilúvatar's wishes because he simply could not wait. It's funny, he makes the same presumptuous change to "the music" as Melkor did, but he repents, god forgives him and the punishment is that the dwarves will show up later after the Elves do. It felt like it got less and less directly allegorical of the Christian faith as the chapters went on, but it still never left it behind as it still jumps out at you now and again. As an athiest, I found it as fascinating as I do most religions. Regardless of my views, the level of detail here just shows you how deep faiths go around the planet. And I do like that Tolkien never thought that other faith's were "wrong", but rather different interpretations of the same basic premise and thus could all be included. I think he brings that to Arda, and in my humble opinion I thought it only serves to make it richer.

Yes, I loved the origin of the Dwarves. That was great! I think what I loved most though was the concept of Ilúvatar's gift to Men: the Gift of Death, with perhaps (I forget if it was ever stated or implied) the promise of something beyond the mortal life that hasn't even been revealed to the Valar or the Elves. What's really interesting about this (in allegorical terms--I know Tolkien hates allegory, but it's hard for me not to read into it) is that it puts the Elves somewhere between angelic beings and mortal men.

[QuickTidal]

Salt-Man Z, on 04 June 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Yes, I loved the origin of the Dwarves. That was great! I think what I loved most though was the concept of Ilúvatar's gift to Men: the Gift of Death, with perhaps (I forget if it was ever stated or implied) the promise of something beyond the mortal life that hasn't even been revealed to the Valar or the Elves. What's really interesting about this (in allegorical terms--I know Tolkien hates allegory, but it's hard for me not to read into it) is that it puts the Elves somewhere between angelic beings and mortal men.

Ah indeed, the gift to men of death. Thus when they die they go" where the elves know not whither", and the info I was getting from the podcasts was like, men are not properly from Arda, and therefore they go "somewhere" when they die...presumably "home", whereas the elves live forever on Arda because it is their "home" and even the idea of going to reside in Mandos' Hall is not really death. So yeah, it does kind of put the elves are beings between the Valar and Men. As if to say hey, you guys are going to be awesome...but living forever is going to get tiring...and you'll see how the "gift of death" really is a gift when it comes to men.

I really liked stuff like Lúthien getting to basically live a mortal life with Beren, but eventually she dies and doesn't really go anywhere (she can't go where the elves go, nor can she continue on past with Men) and just ceases to exist. That was such a bleak addendum to (for all intents a purposes) a happy ending (with them living their lives in Ossiriand). That was deftly done and makes it nearly as tragic as Túrin Turambar's tale. Though maybe not quite that rough. LOL

[McLovin]

Been a LONG time since I read Tolkien (nearly 20 years, I think - wow).

I think it's time I dusted off those badboys.

Cheers you guys.