[McLovin]

A forum ancient RETURNS!!!

[QuickTidal]

McLovin, on 22 May 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

A forum ancient RETURNS!!!

And she's from my city. Strange. Here I thought I was one of the only Torontonians.

[Abyss]

Lady Atheilen, on 21 May 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Looks intriguing, and I'm not generally a fan of Abrams.

QuickTidal, on 22 May 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

McLovin, on 22 May 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

A forum ancient RETURNS!!!

And she's from my city. Strange. Here I thought I was one of the only Torontonians.

We have a statutory limit but she was grandfathered in on a non-retro basis.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 22 May 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

We have a statutory limit but she was grandfathered in on a non-retro basis.

*nods* Understood.

[Silencer]

Basic premise is interesting, even if it has been done before. Action looks good. But one question I'm wondering about (and let's face it, it's basic plot-centric question): Nothing electrical works any more, right? EVEN BATTERIES. Weird, but OK. Not going to wonder how all electrical currents have apparently been blocked, but people are still walking and talking, that would make for no plot. But presumably non-electrical devices still work. I.e. clockwork and so forth. And gunpowder clearly still works. So...why has everyone jumped back to what appear to be single-shot rifles, when America is practically Land of the Gun? There is NOTHING electrical about an automatic gun. It all operates on recoil and gas (from the powder explosion) to move springs. There would certainly be no shortage of bullets, either. So why all the crossbows? Why the Civil War era-esque guns?

So yeah, between that and the hand-waving of the human body's electrical system being affected, either there is some serious MAGIC going on or some very weird aliens involved. XD But I'm not going to be satisfied with any explanation about the lack of modern firearms of any sort.

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 03 August 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Basic premise is interesting, even if it has been done before. Action looks good. But one question I'm wondering about (and let's face it, it's basic plot-centric question): Nothing electrical works any more, right? EVEN BATTERIES. Weird, but OK. Not going to wonder how all electrical currents have apparently been blocked, but people are still walking and talking, that would make for no plot. But presumably non-electrical devices still work. I.e. clockwork and so forth. And gunpowder clearly still works. So...why has everyone jumped back to what appear to be single-shot rifles, when America is practically Land of the Gun? There is NOTHING electrical about an automatic gun. It all operates on recoil and gas (from the powder explosion) to move springs. There would certainly be no shortage of bullets, either. So why all the crossbows? Why the Civil War era-esque guns?

So yeah, between that and the hand-waving of the human body's electrical system being affected, either there is some serious MAGIC going on or some very weird aliens involved. XD But I'm not going to be satisfied with any explanation about the lack of modern firearms of any sort.

Easiest guess. Manufacturing automatic weapons and the amount of bullets they require is not a realistic possibility any longer. There WOULD be a shortage of bullets, since the show takes place 15 years after the loss of power event. With the amount of chaos that would have followed such an event bullets would have become very scarce....thus single shot guns make much more sense if you are conserving the ammo you have.

As to the power outage I don't think we have to handwavium it, since the extended trailer shows that someone DOES have power, and thus this outage has been manufactured...and manipulated. My guess is that whatever type of EMP which wiped out regular power was also able to wipe out how batteries worked ect...it will be a big plot point methinks...the "How" this was able to happen.

At any rate, I think that with the pedigree of both Abrahm's AND Kripke (SUPERNATURAL) involved, I'm going to hope the writing is what wins it as this seems like it will be a character study. The one thing people have forgotten (barring WALKING DEAD and FALLING SKIES) when trying to get one of these Long-Arc, episodic-story TV shows off the ground is that it's not just about your gimmick that gets people to watch...but with LOST as an example, the reason people tuned in other than the mysteries...was the cast and their interaction. If they make THAT part of the show sing, then the rest will be cream.

I'm truly looking forward to this show.

[Abyss]

the writing had better shine because otherwise i foresee a tepid mashup of DARK ANGEL and that lame REIZE: KINGDOM FALLING thing Syfy and Space released last year and give it about the same lifespan as TERRA NOVA.

[Silencer]

QuickTidal, on 03 August 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Silencer, on 03 August 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Basic premise is interesting, even if it has been done before. Action looks good. But one question I'm wondering about (and let's face it, it's basic plot-centric question): Nothing electrical works any more, right? EVEN BATTERIES. Weird, but OK. Not going to wonder how all electrical currents have apparently been blocked, but people are still walking and talking, that would make for no plot. But presumably non-electrical devices still work. I.e. clockwork and so forth. And gunpowder clearly still works. So...why has everyone jumped back to what appear to be single-shot rifles, when America is practically Land of the Gun? There is NOTHING electrical about an automatic gun. It all operates on recoil and gas (from the powder explosion) to move springs. There would certainly be no shortage of bullets, either. So why all the crossbows? Why the Civil War era-esque guns?

So yeah, between that and the hand-waving of the human body's electrical system being affected, either there is some serious MAGIC going on or some very weird aliens involved. XD But I'm not going to be satisfied with any explanation about the lack of modern firearms of any sort.

Easiest guess. Manufacturing automatic weapons and the amount of bullets they require is not a realistic possibility any longer. There WOULD be a shortage of bullets, since the show takes place 15 years after the loss of power event. With the amount of chaos that would have followed such an event bullets would have become very scarce....thus single shot guns make much more sense if you are conserving the ammo you have.

As to the power outage I don't think we have to handwavium it, since the extended trailer shows that someone DOES have power, and thus this outage has been manufactured...and manipulated. My guess is that whatever type of EMP which wiped out regular power was also able to wipe out how batteries worked ect...it will be a big plot point methinks...the "How" this was able to happen.

At any rate, I think that with the pedigree of both Abrahm's AND Kripke (SUPERNATURAL) involved, I'm going to hope the writing is what wins it as this seems like it will be a character study. The one thing people have forgotten (barring WALKING DEAD and FALLING SKIES) when trying to get one of these Long-Arc, episodic-story TV shows off the ground is that it's not just about your gimmick that gets people to watch...but with LOST as an example, the reason people tuned in other than the mysteries...was the cast and their interaction. If they make THAT part of the show sing, then the rest will be cream.

I'm truly looking forward to this show.

If America could run out of ammunition (and bear in mind; most guns have single-shot capability, or indeed are semi-automatic only) in only 15 years (not all of which is chaos and death), just because they cannot manufacture new rounds the world would be a happier place. Think about it: not everyone dies. Not everyone who dies is shot. Not everyone with a gun will use all the ammunition they have for it. Plenty of people in the US (not including military or PMC organizations) stockpile ammunition like mofos. I would guesstimate there are more rounds of ammunition in that country than there are people, easily.
Now, consider; why would it be easier to obtain ammunition for outdated, FLINTLOCK rifles, for whom ammunition is no longer produced, let alone in quantity, than it is to use something that fires over-the-counter ammunition like .223/5.56mm, or 9mm for pistols, or .303, heck, even .30-06? That's LUDICROUS. It's akin to suggesting that everyone on earth right now decides to use floppy disks for all their data storage needs because DVD manufacture stopped for a week. It doesn't solve the problem and in fact makes it worse. There is less ammunition for those kinds of guns than there are for modern firearms, and you can use single-shot if conserving rounds is your goal. :S

Sorry QT, but your suggestion just doesn't fly. XD I must admit it's partly my fault for saying "automatic" and "single-shot rifles"; the distinction I'm really getting at is "modern", be they semi-automatic or automatic, vs "old" and LITERALLY single-shot (as in, one round; reload; one round; reload; not magazine fed, bolt-action or semi-auto).



I agree that the broader question of how the electricity has been shut off is basically a plot-centric one. My concern is if that if no-one raises the point that the human body should've been affected by this stuff, I'll be disappointed. Not hugely so, as I said, that would make for no plot; it's just something that I noticed. And if the reason for the lack of modern guns is the blackout cause, THEN I'm calling BS/magic/aliens.

Certainly hoping for some well-written characters and interesting dynamics therein. The plot will hopefully hold up (and resolve my already nitpicky questions) to decent scrutiny, but that's quite likely with the pair mentioned at the helm; so I think it should do fine in both areas.

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 03 August 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 August 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Silencer, on 03 August 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Basic premise is interesting, even if it has been done before. Action looks good. But one question I'm wondering about (and let's face it, it's basic plot-centric question): Nothing electrical works any more, right? EVEN BATTERIES. Weird, but OK. Not going to wonder how all electrical currents have apparently been blocked, but people are still walking and talking, that would make for no plot. But presumably non-electrical devices still work. I.e. clockwork and so forth. And gunpowder clearly still works. So...why has everyone jumped back to what appear to be single-shot rifles, when America is practically Land of the Gun? There is NOTHING electrical about an automatic gun. It all operates on recoil and gas (from the powder explosion) to move springs. There would certainly be no shortage of bullets, either. So why all the crossbows? Why the Civil War era-esque guns?

So yeah, between that and the hand-waving of the human body's electrical system being affected, either there is some serious MAGIC going on or some very weird aliens involved. XD But I'm not going to be satisfied with any explanation about the lack of modern firearms of any sort.

Easiest guess. Manufacturing automatic weapons and the amount of bullets they require is not a realistic possibility any longer. There WOULD be a shortage of bullets, since the show takes place 15 years after the loss of power event. With the amount of chaos that would have followed such an event bullets would have become very scarce....thus single shot guns make much more sense if you are conserving the ammo you have.

As to the power outage I don't think we have to handwavium it, since the extended trailer shows that someone DOES have power, and thus this outage has been manufactured...and manipulated. My guess is that whatever type of EMP which wiped out regular power was also able to wipe out how batteries worked ect...it will be a big plot point methinks...the "How" this was able to happen.

At any rate, I think that with the pedigree of both Abrahm's AND Kripke (SUPERNATURAL) involved, I'm going to hope the writing is what wins it as this seems like it will be a character study. The one thing people have forgotten (barring WALKING DEAD and FALLING SKIES) when trying to get one of these Long-Arc, episodic-story TV shows off the ground is that it's not just about your gimmick that gets people to watch...but with LOST as an example, the reason people tuned in other than the mysteries...was the cast and their interaction. If they make THAT part of the show sing, then the rest will be cream.

I'm truly looking forward to this show.

If America could run out of ammunition (and bear in mind; most guns have single-shot capability, or indeed are semi-automatic only) in only 15 years (not all of which is chaos and death), just because they cannot manufacture new rounds the world would be a happier place. Think about it: not everyone dies. Not everyone who dies is shot. Not everyone with a gun will use all the ammunition they have for it. Plenty of people in the US (not including military or PMC organizations) stockpile ammunition like mofos. I would guesstimate there are more rounds of ammunition in that country than there are people, easily.
Now, consider; why would it be easier to obtain ammunition for outdated, FLINTLOCK rifles, for whom ammunition is no longer produced, let alone in quantity, than it is to use something that fires over-the-counter ammunition like .223/5.56mm, or 9mm for pistols, or .303, heck, even .30-06? That's LUDICROUS. It's akin to suggesting that everyone on earth right now decides to use floppy disks for all their data storage needs because DVD manufacture stopped for a week. It doesn't solve the problem and in fact makes it worse. There is less ammunition for those kinds of guns than there are for modern firearms, and you can use single-shot if conserving rounds is your goal. :S

Sorry QT, but your suggestion just doesn't fly. XD I must admit it's partly my fault for saying "automatic" and "single-shot rifles"; the distinction I'm really getting at is "modern", be they semi-automatic or automatic, vs "old" and LITERALLY single-shot (as in, one round; reload; one round; reload; not magazine fed, bolt-action or semi-auto).



I agree that the broader question of how the electricity has been shut off is basically a plot-centric one. My concern is if that if no-one raises the point that the human body should've been affected by this stuff, I'll be disappointed. Not hugely so, as I said, that would make for no plot; it's just something that I noticed. And if the reason for the lack of modern guns is the blackout cause, THEN I'm calling BS/magic/aliens.

Certainly hoping for some well-written characters and interesting dynamics therein. The plot will hopefully hold up (and resolve my already nitpicky questions) to decent scrutiny, but that's quite likely with the pair mentioned at the helm; so I think it should do fine in both areas.

Dude. No. America would run out of bullets fast...partially because of the militia's that would rise up and steal / protect those ammo rounds. Aside form that, this is a smaller community living together, not a militia, thus the fact that they have a bunch of crossbows and single shot weapons makes perfect sense.

I'm also a little blown away that you think that in 15 years time the populous of a post-energy world would be flush with bullets. If there was even 5 years of war post-Energy event, the ammo stocks would dwindle...Look at WWII, in something like 4 years they were turning to scrap metal to manufacture ammo because they'd used so much (and that was in a theatre of war that was not even a fraction the size of the USA)...war will do that, and there would be probably nothing BUT war for a number of years if something like this happened. Anyways, I DO thin you need to watch the trailer again, as ONE GUY uses a rifle....one, the only other guns that even show up are a couple of shotguns (one carried, one fired off at Twilight Dad), other than the it's all Crossbows and Bow and Arrow...even the militia is mostly carrying swords and arrows...my guess is that A LOT of ammo was used up in post-energy wars, and that any that is left in any numbers is held by the various ruling factions and militia's...but even then the one militia we DO see seems to use a lot of crossbows.

[Abyss]

Also, guns need maintenance, which is difficult when you can't get tools and your oil supply is finite. I don't think lubricating a 9mm slide action with animal fat would end well.

[Silencer]

QuickTidal, on 03 August 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

Silencer, on 03 August 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 August 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Silencer, on 03 August 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Basic premise is interesting, even if it has been done before. Action looks good. But one question I'm wondering about (and let's face it, it's basic plot-centric question): Nothing electrical works any more, right? EVEN BATTERIES. Weird, but OK. Not going to wonder how all electrical currents have apparently been blocked, but people are still walking and talking, that would make for no plot. But presumably non-electrical devices still work. I.e. clockwork and so forth. And gunpowder clearly still works. So...why has everyone jumped back to what appear to be single-shot rifles, when America is practically Land of the Gun? There is NOTHING electrical about an automatic gun. It all operates on recoil and gas (from the powder explosion) to move springs. There would certainly be no shortage of bullets, either. So why all the crossbows? Why the Civil War era-esque guns?

So yeah, between that and the hand-waving of the human body's electrical system being affected, either there is some serious MAGIC going on or some very weird aliens involved. XD But I'm not going to be satisfied with any explanation about the lack of modern firearms of any sort.

Easiest guess. Manufacturing automatic weapons and the amount of bullets they require is not a realistic possibility any longer. There WOULD be a shortage of bullets, since the show takes place 15 years after the loss of power event. With the amount of chaos that would have followed such an event bullets would have become very scarce....thus single shot guns make much more sense if you are conserving the ammo you have.

As to the power outage I don't think we have to handwavium it, since the extended trailer shows that someone DOES have power, and thus this outage has been manufactured...and manipulated. My guess is that whatever type of EMP which wiped out regular power was also able to wipe out how batteries worked ect...it will be a big plot point methinks...the "How" this was able to happen.

At any rate, I think that with the pedigree of both Abrahm's AND Kripke (SUPERNATURAL) involved, I'm going to hope the writing is what wins it as this seems like it will be a character study. The one thing people have forgotten (barring WALKING DEAD and FALLING SKIES) when trying to get one of these Long-Arc, episodic-story TV shows off the ground is that it's not just about your gimmick that gets people to watch...but with LOST as an example, the reason people tuned in other than the mysteries...was the cast and their interaction. If they make THAT part of the show sing, then the rest will be cream.

I'm truly looking forward to this show.

If America could run out of ammunition (and bear in mind; most guns have single-shot capability, or indeed are semi-automatic only) in only 15 years (not all of which is chaos and death), just because they cannot manufacture new rounds the world would be a happier place. Think about it: not everyone dies. Not everyone who dies is shot. Not everyone with a gun will use all the ammunition they have for it. Plenty of people in the US (not including military or PMC organizations) stockpile ammunition like mofos. I would guesstimate there are more rounds of ammunition in that country than there are people, easily.
Now, consider; why would it be easier to obtain ammunition for outdated, FLINTLOCK rifles, for whom ammunition is no longer produced, let alone in quantity, than it is to use something that fires over-the-counter ammunition like .223/5.56mm, or 9mm for pistols, or .303, heck, even .30-06? That's LUDICROUS. It's akin to suggesting that everyone on earth right now decides to use floppy disks for all their data storage needs because DVD manufacture stopped for a week. It doesn't solve the problem and in fact makes it worse. There is less ammunition for those kinds of guns than there are for modern firearms, and you can use single-shot if conserving rounds is your goal. :S

Sorry QT, but your suggestion just doesn't fly. XD I must admit it's partly my fault for saying "automatic" and "single-shot rifles"; the distinction I'm really getting at is "modern", be they semi-automatic or automatic, vs "old" and LITERALLY single-shot (as in, one round; reload; one round; reload; not magazine fed, bolt-action or semi-auto).



I agree that the broader question of how the electricity has been shut off is basically a plot-centric one. My concern is if that if no-one raises the point that the human body should've been affected by this stuff, I'll be disappointed. Not hugely so, as I said, that would make for no plot; it's just something that I noticed. And if the reason for the lack of modern guns is the blackout cause, THEN I'm calling BS/magic/aliens.

Certainly hoping for some well-written characters and interesting dynamics therein. The plot will hopefully hold up (and resolve my already nitpicky questions) to decent scrutiny, but that's quite likely with the pair mentioned at the helm; so I think it should do fine in both areas.

Dude. No. America would run out of bullets fast...partially because of the militia's that would rise up and steal / protect those ammo rounds. Aside form that, this is a smaller community living together, not a militia, thus the fact that they have a bunch of crossbows and single shot weapons makes perfect sense.

I'm also a little blown away that you think that in 15 years time the populous of a post-energy world would be flush with bullets. If there was even 5 years of war post-Energy event, the ammo stocks would dwindle...Look at WWII, in something like 4 years they were turning to scrap metal to manufacture ammo because they'd used so much (and that was in a theatre of war that was not even a fraction the size of the USA)...war will do that, and there would be probably nothing BUT war for a number of years if something like this happened. Anyways, I DO thin you need to watch the trailer again, as ONE GUY uses a rifle....one, the only other guns that even show up are a couple of shotguns (one carried, one fired off at Twilight Dad), other than the it's all Crossbows and Bow and Arrow...even the militia is mostly carrying swords and arrows...my guess is that A LOT of ammo was used up in post-energy wars, and that any that is left in any numbers is held by the various ruling factions and militia's...but even then the one militia we DO see seems to use a lot of crossbows.

IF there were five years of war - proper war - yes, the bullet supply would dwindle rapidly. Bear in mind however that in WWII bullets were not being manufactured on as vast a scale as they are today, and while I grant rate of use would likely be higher if everyone using them was a complete novice...it would still give some solid years of WAR. If there was a large-scale civil war, however, I'm not sold on the rate of usage. Either your average citizen in the States is armed (and therefore has ammunition in some quantity, and therefore the total ammunition supply we're talking about goes up) or the average citizen is unarmed in which case it's a lot easier to kill them with less ammunition expended because only one party is shooting. Even presuming there is only 4-5 years of war-situation ammunition supplies, that's a fuckton to be able to shell out in a civil war (combining death by bullet with death by other weapons, planes falling from the sky, disease, lack of medical attention, etc...looooots of dead people very short space of time) of any kind.

Again, though, I argue that even if I were to concede the potential for ammunition drying up, that one guy using a rifle? It's a FUCKING FLINTLOCK. Explain to me how that makes any sense whatsoever when there are practically no other guns shown? It's impossible to contend that that weapon (which requires more maintenance than a modern rifle, btw) is likely to have more shots lying around than ANY gun firing a common modern calibre, EVEN assuming mass wastage of rounds during a five-year civil war. I'd sooner take any modern rifle with only one round for it than that thing.



As to the maintenance...that is a reasonable suggestion. Though it's up in the air how fast oil gets used post-blackout during a civil war with no vehicles or any other electrical devices with moving parts working, guns do require a fairly good quality of lubricant. Unless, apparently, they're an AK-47. Still doesn't explain the idiot with a flintlock, tho'.



ANYWAY, this is getting extremely speculative given all we have to go on is the trailer for the pilot. XD

[Abyss]

Silencer, on 03 August 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

...Again, though, I argue that even if I were to concede the potential for ammunition drying up, that one guy using a rifle? It's a FUCKING FLINTLOCK. Explain to me how that makes any sense whatsoever ... I'd sooner take any modern rifle with only one round for it than that thing.

Easier to make and maintain, including probably from parts scavenged from modern weapons. Even the ammo, a simple ball, is easier to make than a modern bullet.

It will be interesting to see if they play up the angle on the value of those people who actually know how to make gunpowder, or hand machine a hollow rod.

Quote

... this is getting extremely speculative given all we have to go on is the trailer for the pilot. XD

Since when has that ever stopped us?

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 03 August 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Silencer, on 03 August 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

...Again, though, I argue that even if I were to concede the potential for ammunition drying up, that one guy using a rifle? It's a FUCKING FLINTLOCK. Explain to me how that makes any sense whatsoever ... I'd sooner take any modern rifle with only one round for it than that thing.

Easier to make and maintain, including probably from parts scavenged from modern weapons. Even the ammo, a simple ball, is easier to make than a modern bullet.

It will be interesting to see if they play up the angle on the value of those people who actually know how to make gunpowder, or hand machine a hollow rod.

Quote

... this is getting extremely speculative given all we have to go on is the trailer for the pilot. XD

Since when has that ever stopped us?

A good point about the flintlock.

Plus, I fail to see how one guy using a weapon Silencer finds unorthodox to be using in such a situation is such a sticking point. People make unorthodox decisions every day.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 03 August 2012 - 03:19 PM

[Otataral Toblakai]

This is mindblowing! Ill have to catch it.

[QuickTidal]

So my local Comic Convention (Aug23rd-26) has the premiere scheduled for a screening in one of the Hall's, so I will be catching that. I'll report in afterwards and let you all know what I thought.

[QuickTidal]

Okay, so I went to the screening last night....and Billy Burke (mustache dad from Twilight) was there to introduce it...which was cool.

It was...very good. A solid pilot, well acted, scripted and directed (by Jon Favreau of Iron Man fame). I throughly enjoyed it, good action, great mystery, and some poignant scenes as well. Giancarlo Esposito was excellent of course.

Oh and to the person (can't recall who) who brought up the flintlock rifle in the trailer and why they'd have that...it turns out that SOME of the regular people even have to use muskets...because when you see the first scene with the militia...THEY have all the better, modern guns....which I think is partly what I said would happen....the military (which is partly what the militia's rose from) stockpiles all the GOOD weapons and ammo...plus owning a gun...(the guy with the flintlock from the trailer) according to Esposito's character...is a hanging offense.

Oh and the scene with Billy Burke being surrounded and attacked by militia is well done and cribs some notes from John Woo's THE KILLER.

Lastly, whgat impressed us most is the amount of genre's represented in the show...Western, Civil war, Swashbuckler, Hunger Games, sci-fi....it was an interesting facet and we quite enjoyed.

The show debuts Sept. 17th....and I will TOTALLY be watching this season now. The pilot sold me.

Oh and there were 500 people at the screening...and I was second in line. What what!

[Gnaw]

Primateus, on 14 May 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

This actually looks pretty good. ...... that there would be someone out there with Technology.

Agreed on the looks good.
The technology? It's J. J. Abrams, so that likely comes from an alternate universe.

Silencer, on 03 August 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

So yeah, between that and the hand-waving of the human body's electrical system being affected, either there is some serious MAGIC going on or some very weird aliens involved. XD But I'm not going to be satisfied with any explanation about the lack of modern firearms of any sort.

Agreed on the neurological issue as well. Having had conduction tests performed in the past and scheduled for more, I can assure anyone that nerves are electrical in function.

[D'rek]

If Malcolm Reynolds can use a western-style revolver in space, I see no reason not to have a lone character toting a flintlock in post-apocalypse america. Both characters are just doing it to compensate look cool.

[drinksinbars]

saw this premiere, my god it was utterly abymssmal. i mean beyond bad. from the piss poor acting, the awful plot, terrible characters, terrible set design and total cliched ideas. will not be watchning any more of that.

[Vengeance]

drinksinbars, on 18 September 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

saw this premiere, my god it was utterly abymssmal. i mean beyond bad. from the piss poor acting, the awful plot, terrible characters, terrible set design and total cliched ideas. will not be watchning any more of that.

Seconded..