[Abyss]

Sinisdar Toste, on 14 May 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

also need to add in that

Spoiler

oponn are the offspring of sechul lath.

And bear in mind that the nature of that relationship is entirely unclear, esp given the racial differences.

Aptorius, on 14 May 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

That is the thing I love about the Malazan magic system/universal order, it's not just what you are in your core, it's also about what other people/entities sees you as ...For the people who believe in the Mother Dark the Creator of the Universe Origin Myth she certainly must represent Order.

And just to complicate that, note that in the ICE books there is multiple ref to the aspect of 'Night', as distinct from 'Dark'.
We also have 'Sister of Cold Nights' who appeared to be using Rashan, which was a chunk of Dark derived from Shadow.
And Draconus is referenced in the context of 'Night' as opposed to Dark.

And of course, children of both Dark and Light (and Night) AND Shadow have taken on draconic aspect, and we know there is a link between dragons and Starvald Demelain, and from there to Chaos itself.

The closest we come to a 'god of chaos' seems to be either Rake in his 'Mane of Chaos' aspect that seems to be dropped after GotM, or Tiam herself and we don't see enough of her to really figure that out.

Korabas appears to be aspected to entropy, not chaos, btw.

[Aptorian]

Ah yes, Night being a distinct element separate from, yet connected with, Darkness.

Is this an evolution of the magic systems that hasn't been touched upon much? Perhaps connected with the Age of Holds coming after the Age of Wandering?

Darkness becomes Night

Light becomes Day?

Togg speaks of a time before the Jaghut and Omotose Phellack, of true Winter.

Did Winter turn into "Ice" or was it the other way around?

What anout Summer? Could Fire have turned into Warmth or Summer? ... and Life?

So many possibilities.

[Illuyankas]

Abyss, on 14 May 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 14 May 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

also need to add in that

Spoiler

oponn are the offspring of sechul lath.

And bear in mind that the nature of that relationship is entirely unclear, esp given the racial differences.

Who's to say they weren't their parent's race before becoming worshipped by humanity? Appearance is a very malleable thing when it comes to gods here.

[Abyss]

Have we seen anyone aspected to 'Day'? I don't think so. 'Night' raises an element of fear and the unknown so the distinction is logical.

Togg and Fanderay have been described as Wolves of Winter. Anyone's guess whether Omtose Phellack or 'Winter or the primal Beast Hold itself came first.

Fener and Trake both shared Summer. They were both linked to the Tennes warren, although Trake at least seems to pre-date the 'new' warrens.

And D'rek is referred to as the Worm of Autumn, with an underlying 'rot' element, and has it's own warren altogether. Plus it's hinted pretty heavily that D'rek may be an ascended animal, elder god, or something else entirely.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 14 May 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

and has it's own warren altogether.

Say what? I thought D'rek used D'riss?

[Abyss]

D, on 14 May 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Abyss, on 14 May 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

and has it's own warren altogether.

Say what? I thought D'rek used D'riss?

Yes, that.

[Aptorian]

Clarifying here, it seems that Abyss is implying that D'rek (the worm god) has a personal warren/an aspected warren of her own.

D'rek (the forum user) is pointing out that D'riss is the earth warren which does not seem to be very personal, just ordinary elemental, if anything you would suspect it was connected with the other "earth" warren we know of Tennes which belong to Burn.

D'riss is more associated with stone though, right? Or is that Tennes? Only time I remember it being brought up is in MoI when Quick travels through stone and in TTH when Mappo quick travels through lava or what ever he uses there.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 14 May 2012 - 05:01 PM

[Kanese S's]

Sinisdar Toste, on 14 May 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

the entry on t'iam in the OP gets wonky around rivals/warren. goes back to MD info.

also need to add in that

Spoiler

oponn are the offspring of sechul lath.

Thanks for catching that about T'iam.

With Sechul Lath and Oponn.... are the twins his literal offspring or are they just his thematic successors? Oponn never appeared to be Forkrul Assail-ish in appearance, from what I recall.

[Kanese S's]

D, on 14 May 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 14 May 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

The reason why I put Order besides her is that she is sort of a linchpin for the whole universe it appears but also because Eriksons magic/elemental system seems to work on many levels. At the core of things she is by far the most likely candidate for a "Champion of Order", like how Darkness and Chaos are the twin chambers of K'ruls heart but yeah it isn't out right stated anywhere.

Does that really have anything to do with MD though, and not just because Draconus semi-arbitrarily decided to use Darkness as Order to fight Chaos? (And then in MoI he admits he made a mistake when he assumed only Darkness could manifest Order)

Just from what I remember of the series, especially with the turning away bit, it seems like chaos is more antithetical to her even than to other gods.

Especially with the whole bit where

MD: "What is this, Anomander, what are these things I hear about you drinking the blood of T'iam?"

Rake: "Oh yeah, mom, I killed T'iam and drank her blood, I can now turn into a dragon and use another warren. It's really cool"

MD: "WHAAT?!!! YOU'RE USING STARVALD DEMELAIN??!!!"

Rake: "Er, yes? Silchas did, too."

Ruin: "Yeah, and I can turn into a bigger dragon than Anomander can, so nyaaaa!"

MD: "Don't you know that T'iam and dragons are things of chaos, and can I abide chaos?"

Rake: "Er... no? But mom, it's only a little bit. Besides, it's not like we're the only ones doing it?"

MD: "What?!"

Rake: "Yeah, well, my friends thought it would be cool"

MD: "More Tiste Andii drinking the blood of T'iam?"

Silchas: "Basically, yeah."

MD: "I HAVE NO SONS! I DISOWN MY CHILDREN!!! GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"



Andrarist: "Nice job, assholes."

[Kanese S's]

Corrected bit about T'iam, updated Nightchill's warren to Rashan, and Trake and Fener's to Tennes, as well as putting D'rek's as D'riss.

But I thought T'riss used D'riss?

[Aptorian]

Kanese S, on 14 May 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 14 May 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

the entry on t'iam in the OP gets wonky around rivals/warren. goes back to MD info.

also need to add in that

Spoiler

oponn are the offspring of sechul lath.

Thanks for catching that about T'iam.

With Sechul Lath and Oponn.... are the twins his literal offspring or are they just his thematic successors? Oponn never appeared to be Forkrul Assail-ish in appearance, from what I recall.

His description (skin tone, build, movement) suggests that he is an FA.

I believe it is in TCG that Knuckles recalls a time when he walked into Chaos. He was torn apart/unmade and out of him came the Twins. Like Olympian gods coming out of the foreheads or thighs of their parents.

[Kanese S's]

Oh, I see. I'll put him down as their parent, then.

[worry]

The weird thing about the Night/Dark disparity is that Night would seem to be a concept of the mortal world, what with being a planet with a sun, and Draconus being an Elder God and therefore beholden (somewhat) to mortal worship. All of which seems fine and dandy, if Draconus is an EG who took a TA guise to infiltrate KG for his own purposes. But what's weird about it, and we are still mostly in the dark about it (hyuk hyuk), is that Sister of Cold Nights seems to be a TA/Shake title rather than something originating on the mortal world. Unless we come to learn differently in the trilogy. I suppose she (the original) might have come to KG in TA guise as well, like her brother, if the EGs have some stake in the First Shore.

Not to derail this thread into plot discussion, it's just something that stood out to me.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 14 May 2012 - 08:12 PM

[D'rek]

Aptorius, on 14 May 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

Clarifying here, it seems that Abyss is implying that D'rek (the worm god) has a personal warren/an aspected warren of her own.

D'rek (the forum user) is pointing out that D'riss is the earth warren which does not seem to be very personal, just ordinary elemental, if anything you would suspect it was connected with the other "earth" warren we know of Tennes which belong to Burn.

D'riss is more associated with stone though, right? Or is that Tennes? Only time I remember it being brought up is in MoI when Quick travels through stone and in TTH when Mappo quick travels through lava or what ever he uses there.

Kanese S, on 14 May 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

But I thought T'riss used D'riss?

Big long eye-bleeding post of IMO/theorizing:

Warrens are not exclusive - just like many Rashan mages can all use the one Rashan warren, many gods can use it, too.

Let's take three examples:

The Ascendant Ammanas sits on the Throne of Shadow, thereby making claim to the Shadow realm and its associated Meanas warren, and maybe all the fragments of Kurald Emurlahn, too. The claim is uncontested so it's just him and he gets out of it some control over the Shadow realm/warren(s). Furthermore (but obviously in conjunction with taking the Throne), he calls himself the title Shadowthrone and makes a shadow-aspected religion for himself and the other shadow-aspected Ascendants (The Rope, the Hounds), and this religion acquires temples and followers who worship him and thereby provide him with additional power and influence. In further conjunction (or as a result) of all this, the High House of Shadow is created in the pantheon system (recall in GotM it is said that that High House is new) and/or starts appearing in the Deck of Dragons (not that it couldn't ever appear before - lapsed cards do show up from time to time when relevant, as seen in TtH and RotCG).

So, the Ascendant Ammanas:
-is heavily aspected to Shadow (who knows when exactly this started)
-uses the Shadow/Meanas warren as his own realm
-claimed the Throne of Shadow, giving him control over the Shadow/Meanas warren
-is head of a Shadow(throne) religion
-is King of High House Shadow in the pantheon


The Ascendant (well we assume she is one) Burn, also known as the Sleeping Goddess, is an ancient entity who more or less embodies the planet itself. Her priests have used the D'riss (Path of Stone) warren in rituals involving her, and she's also been connected to the Tennes (Path of the Land) warren. Her aspect isn't precisely stated in a one-word sense, but it aligns most closely with either/both the Land/Earth and Life, so you could say she is Earth-aspected or Life-aspected. She most certainly has a realm of her own - the one QB brings Pannion to in MoI. Arguably, the whole of Wu is also her realm, or maybe something else, it's kind of vague. In the pantheon, she does not appear to hold any position, and there's never been much reference to her in any Deck reading that I can recall, so no cards have ever been associated with her. Then again, she could easily appear in a Deck reading simply as herself (much like Oponn, The Tyrant, Icarium, etc). She has an extensive religion that worships her and probably therefore provides her with additional power and influence.

So, Burn:
-is aspected to the Land/Earth/Life
-presides over at least one realm, unknown what warren it is part of, could be Wu itself (and therefore not one of the Paths) or part of Tennes or something else
-does not claim dominion over any particular warren (D'riss and Tennes both have other gods/goddesses that use them)
-is head of her own Burn religion
-does not hold a particular position in the pantheon


The Ascendant Fener, also known as Tennerock (Tennes implications right there) and the Boar of Summer, was apparently among the most powerful of gods. Like Burn and Shadowthrone, he has his own religion, including temples and priests on many continents, plus mercenary orders and military companies sworn to him. Like the others, presumably he gets plenty of power and influence out of this. His priests most certainly have magical abilities, but there is no specific warren ever said to be most closely associated with him - Karnadas and Heboric especially speak of his realm and communing with him and such, but never name a Path (other than Karnadas' Denul warren used for healing his troops). Given that Fener's other name is Tennerock, and a few mentions of the Tennes warren in conjunction with him (I think), it seems the warren Fener uses (or uses most) is Tennes and his realm is a part of that warren. But, this warren is not his alone, and is at the very least also used by Burn. So Fener has control over "his realm", but that realm is only a part of Tennes. Furthermore, Tennes is the Path of the Land/Earth, but that is not Fener's aspect - he is aspected to War. Lastly, like Burn, he has no position in the High Houses and Unaligned of the pantheon.

So, Fener:
-is aspected to War
-has a "realm" that he controls and is very strong in, apparently, but it is not a whole warren itself like Shadowthrone has
-uses the Tennes warren, but doesn't control it like ST
-is head of his own Fener religion
-does not hold a particular position in the pantheon



So, IMO, the warren a god uses does not dictate their aspect and vice-versa, though they are probably still related (ie Fener, aspected to War, would not use the Shadow warren). In the Elder warrens and Holds, it seems there's often/always a Throne of _____ that lets a single being assert themselves as the dominant controller of that Warren/Hold, but this does not seem to be the case for the Paths. The exception is Meanas, but Shadow can easily be an exception due to the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn and it just plain being Shadow. Certainly, there does not seem to be a Throne of the Sky granting control of Serc or a Throne of the Mind granting control of Mockra.

There are plenty of gods without a warren. There are also gods who are said to have their own warren or realm (both those words are used directly in the novels) that is not shared by others, but isn't listed as one of the warren names we know (ie: Envy in MoI talks about looting "Poliel's warren"). I think the modern gods and goddesses carve their own realms out of parts of the Paths, maybe even being able to setup walls and boundaries for them, but these are all just parts of Paths and they don't get to claim dominion over the whole Path.

The only exceptions, that we know of and that I can think of, would be Shadow and Hood's Path, both of which were Elder Warrens/Holds before they became Paths (and K'rul isn't so mean to just leave all the dead souls in the Hold of Death to evaporate into chaos rather than converting the Hold, Hood-in-charge-and-all, into a shiny new Path).

There are nearly an unlimited number of possible aspects for a god, but only a limited number of Paths. This is fine - if the god is so powerful he is carving out a realm for himself he was probably a powerful Ascendant of one warren or another already, and so has the skills to manipulate that warren for him/herself anyways. The Path may not match the god's aspect perfectly, but their religion will, and that's what their worshippers are following, not necessarily the warren they use for it.



So, IMO, if you really want to try and give a clear picture of a god, you need to seperate the notions of Aspect, what Warren they use/have their realm in, what religions they lead/are associated with and how they fit into the "pantheon system" of High Houses, if at all. For some gods, all of these things can be distinct. If you;re bringing in Elder Gods, then add the possibility of Holds into it. In some of the more complex cases, you may even need to seperate the concept of what warren they use and what/where their realm is, since some are mages with special realms or none at all.

Examples:

D'rek, aka The Worm of Autumn
-aspected to rot/decay/etc
-warren: D'riss
-religion: priesthood of D'rek
-pantheon position: none

Queen of Dreams (former mortal name: T'riss)
-aspected to Dreams/Life
-warren: D'riss
-religion: priesthood of the QoD
-pantheon position: Queen of High House Life

Burn, aka The Sleeping Goddess
-aspected to Life/Earth/The World
-warrens: Tennes, D'riss
-religion: priesthood of Burn
-pantheon position: none

Shadowthrone (Ascendant name: Ammanas, former mortal name: Kellanved)
-aspected to Shadow
-warren: Meanas / Shadow / Kurald Emurlahn (has full control of the Meanas fragment)
-religion: priesthood of Shadow (plus some of the Cult of Rashan, Cult of Shadow, but not Cult of the Empty Throne, some or all of which may have been merged into the priesthood when it was created)
-other gods/Ascendants in this religion: The Rope, The Hounds of Shadow
-pantheon position: King of High House Shadow

Fener, aka The Boar of Summer, aka Tennerock (pre-Descent)
-aspected to War
-warren: Tennes
-religion: preisthood of Fener, soldier cults of Fener (the rank of Destriant being accept as equal in both the priesthood and Grey Swords shows that these might be part of one unified religion)
-pantheonic position: none

Oponn
-aspected to Luck
-warren: unknown, possibly none
-religion: priesthood of Oponn (there are temples mentioned, though I don't think we ever meet any Oponn priests in the series)
-pantheon position: Unaligned

Soliel
-aspected to health and healing
-warren: Denul
-religion: priesthood of Soliel in Quon Tali, 7C and Genebackis; co-goddess of The Sisters priesthood in Theft

Poliel
-aspected to plague and disease
-warren: unknown, but she definitely uses one
-religion: co-goddess of The Sisters priesthood in Theft (can't remember if she has her own temples and priesthood in Genebackis, Quon Tali and 7C or not)
-pantheoni position: none until MoI, then Consort of High House Chains

Mowri
-aspected to poverty?
-warren: unknown, possibly none
-religion: Patron of Beggars (I don't believe Mowri is ever seen to have a formalized religion with temples and organized priesthoods, but is rather just a Patron)
-pantheon position: none pre-MoI, then briefly Leper, Cripple and Fool of High House Chains, then nothing again

Hood (pre-Dragnipur)
-aspected to Death
-warren: Hood's Path (has full control of it)
-religion: priesthood of Hood
-pantheon position: King of High House Death

Dryjhna
-aspected to the Apocalypse
-warren: the Raraku fragment of Kurald Emurlahn
-religion: the Dryjhna cult
-pantheon position: none

[D'rek]

worrywort, on 14 May 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

The weird thing about the Night/Dark disparity is that Night would seem to be a concept of the mortal world, what with being a planet with a sun, and Draconus being an Elder God and therefore beholden (somewhat) to mortal worship. All of which seems fine and dandy, if Draconus is an EG who took a TA guise to infiltrate KG for his own purposes. But what's weird about it, and we are still mostly in the dark about it (hyuk hyuk), is that Sister of Cold Nights seems to be a TA/Shake title rather than something originating on the mortal world. Unless we come to learn differently in the trilogy. I suppose she (the original) might have come to KG in TA guise as well, like her brother, if the EGs have some stake in the First Shore.

Not to derail this thread into plot discussion, it's just something that stood out to me.

Given how K'rul used Kurald Galain as one of the "twin hearts" of himself, when he could technically have used any Order manifestation he wanted, maybe the "siblings" K'rul, SoCN and Draconus are all Darkness-aspected in some way for some particular reason, and are all tied up in Andii history...

[worry]

Yah I wouldn't be surprised...but my confusion, if you wanna call it that, is predicated on the notion that the very concept of "night" would be foreign to Kurald Galain/Tiste Andii before the exodus. But the First Shore might complicate that, and it's mostly just guesswork based on spare info and hunches. Needless to say, Forge of Darkness can't come soon enough.

It springs to mind that a lot of troubles in KG -- many having to do with EGs and their incursions -- are all necessarily, at least by proxy, the fault of mortal humans. Even unwittingly, humans worshiping gods has created problems for the Tiste, not to mention Kallor alone had something to do with Tiste civilizations at some point. And of course you bring up K'rul and his heart, which brings to mind the Eleint being taken care of. Seems to me that everyone owes mortals a lot more than they recognize (or at least, refuse to acknowledge). Maybe that's what made Hood so mad.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 14 May 2012 - 09:55 PM

[Kanese S's]

Damn... I think maybe you should take over this, D'rek.

[D'rek]

Kanese S, on 14 May 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Damn... I think maybe you should take over this, D'rek.

No can do, I've got my own projects, so the ownership stays with you! But my consultation fee is very reasonable...

[Kanese S's]

Also, wouldn't pantheonic position for those who are not part of various High Houses be unaligned? And I thought Burn was represented in the deck by Obelisk.

And I thought Fener and Trake at least, and possibly Togg and Fanderay, were in High House War?

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 15 May 2012 - 01:16 AM

[D'rek]

Kanese S, on 15 May 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

Also, wouldn't pantheonic position for those who are not part of various High Houses be unaligned? And I thought Burn was represented in the deck by Obelisk.

Ah yes, Obelisk, which represents K'rul, Burn, Icarium, Kruppe's grandmother...

That's the thing... I don't know who writes the glossaries at the end of the novels, but they put together the Deck of Dragons with the pantheon - they list the Deck of Dragon cards but then indicate who holds those positions in the pantheon. Which, IMO, doesn't work because even though some of the Deck cards are the same as the High House positions, we know for a fact that when a card comes up in a Deck reading it doesn't necessarily represent the person who actually holds that position in the pantheon. Furthermore, the glossary then has a completely arbitrary list of the "Unaligned", which it seems can vary wildly from Deck to Deck (a card for Darujhistan? Icarium? Oponn but not Fener?). As for Obelisk, it and Crown, Sceptre, Throne, Orb and Chain seem to me to be common Deck cards that, unlike the other Deck cards, are not also an Ascendant, God or pantheon position. They seem to indicate motives and aspects more than actual people (ie Chain in a reading represents binding or imprisonment, Throne repesents dominion, etc)

Kanese S, on 15 May 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

And I thought Fener and Trake at least, and possibly Togg and Fanderay, were in High House War?

Prior to TBH (which is, of course, after Fener's descent), there was never any indication of a High House War existing. Then in TBH we have a High House War in Fiddler's Deck, but I'm not sure there's every any reference to it as an actual part of the pantheon (Fiddler's Deck is, after all, very different from what we've seen prior, owing quite possibly to him being such a Talent that his Deck formatted itself better, plus added in the Master of the Deck's new card all on its own). Unlike all the other High Houses, the Ascendants of High House War don't really seem to be unified or allied, especially with Togg & Fanderay's motivations revealed in TCG. It may be just a Deck structuring not truly reflected in the pantheon (after all, why would Treach ever actually submit to T&F's leadership?).