[mako]

In case of humanoid and mortal:

1.Kalam
2.Dancer
3.Surly

[Paran]

1. Dancer
2. Laseen
3. Apsalar
4. Topper
5. Cowl
6. Kalam
7. Vorcan

[Vaddon Ra]

robmafia, on 14 April 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

There are a lot of bad ass assassins in the series. Who do you reckon is the baddest?

Obv 1. Cotillion and 2. Apsalar (when Shadow Dancing). Nobody else can hang.

But among mere mortals, I speculate:

1. Kalam (even Dancer wouldnt cross him)
2. Dancer (ie pre-ascension)
3. Cowl
4. Laseen/Surly
5. Topper
6. Pearl

Nah Dancer would have Kalam, way back when he wasn't sure, but there's that part in HOC when Kalam see's Cotillion fight and knows, just knows, that the reason he is the god of assassins is because He would seriously tear that ass up.

Vorcan
Then Kalam
Then Laseen
Then Topper
Then Cowl
Then Taya

or something to that affect, although until we have ourselves a malazan celebrity deathmatch we cant really be sure

[Vaddon Ra]

Silk, on 15 April 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

hmmmm...... these lists are done to death and are very subjective based on how one has interpreted the story and the little snippets of information given throughout about their abilities.

I personally feel that Dancer shouldn't be in the list as in all honesty the only time we actually see him as Dancer in the series he is taken out by Laseen and the claw through use of a prepared environment, however in his God form there is no touching him.

Ah but then there were like 15 assassins against him.....while he was trying to protect Kellanved...who couldnt do anything due to otataral....even then he kills like 9 of them or something and Surly is all like, NERDRAGE!!!!

not because they got away, but because Dancer WTFPWND her master plan Dancer rules

[Vaddon Ra]

Silencer, on 15 April 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Silk, on 15 April 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

hmmmm...... these lists are done to death and are very subjective based on how one has interpreted the story and the little snippets of information given throughout about their abilities.

I personally feel that Dancer shouldn't be in the list as in all honesty the only time we actually see him as Dancer in the series he is taken out by Laseen and the claw through use of a prepared environment, however in his God form there is no touching him.

*ahem* He is 'taken out' by Laseen and, what was it again, like a DOZEN of the BEST CLAW and TOPPER while defending a USELESS Kellanved and that pretty much went according to their plan. Yeah, we haven't seen enough of Dancer to place him. No sir.


Plus, we did not actually ever see Dancer. All we have is knowledge of his sheer badassery through other sources, which is what you're getting at, I take it. But those stories are enough to say he was easily in the top five, and probably the number one if he was still mortal. My argument would be that Dancer IS Cotillion, so there's no point in listing him as a separate entity, except to point out that way back when he was still the top man. Considering his list of accomplishments (assassinated the Protectress of Li Heng, was apparently an absolute terror to enemy command positions on the battlefield, akin to a Veil assault - except he was doing that to AVOWED - and fucked the shit out of the best Claw essentially with one hand tied behind his back) I think we can safely say that he has more credit to his name than most others we see in action. Because let's face it, Apsalar owns shit up, yes, but she is outright stated to basically be Cotillion-clone, which means if we're ignoring him, we should ignore her.


That's the trouble with this stuff. If you ignore the God, you're left with his carbon copy, his unascended self, a lizard-demon-monster, and then "everyone else", by all measures.


For example, we KNOW that Cowl, current-gen, ran himself into an Azath to get away from Topper. So technically Topper is better than Cowl (except Cowl is likely playing a long-game, was worn out, etc, etc) so I don't know why everyone keeps ranking Cowl up there. We know that Dancer wouldn't cross Kalam back in the day - but that strikes me as more of a "could kill you, but don't want to take the risk/get too wounded to do so" mentality, no? It's the same reason someone like Rake can't just go around lopping heads - if he expends enough effort/gets too weighed down by Dragnipur, even he can be taken out by someone further down the food chain.


Thus:

1. Cotillion/Dancer
2. Apsalar
3. Shi'gal
4. Kalam
5. Topper
6. Cowl
7. Laseen (possibly higher, I concede)
8. Mebbe Vorcan

And everyone else is mincemeat.

Just as an aside, in TBH Kalam hears the useless claw noobs fearfully saying that he's like a badass demon mofo who even 'dancer wouldn't fight' how do we know that is actually true? it could just be a propagandic rumour against the talon who;s master was 'too scared' to kill this badass who is now messing up our shit....

needless to say I have a feeling Dancer would have won anything because he also uses the shadow warren no? Kalam never uses magic, not once, so i guess a straight on blade to blade, him (in his prime, lets not forget he most certainly isnt and is STILL messing shit up) against Dancer, Dancer would win...but your right, perhaps be a long fight....and anyway, why would Dancer (who is not a nob head) want to fight an assassin, who's awesome and in the best, meanest company in his empire? Makes little sense...

People just hate on dancer (but not to his face, good lords no) out of jealousy...Bah, he pwns all, even Tayschreen (yes god flattening force of nature bitch slapping tayschrenn) poo's his linen pants when Dancer lazily walks down some stairs...

right having a nerdgasm...must.....reign...in....the....LOVE

[Vaddon Ra]

BlackMoranthofDoom, on 15 April 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

No love for Rallick Nom . Sure he isn't near the level of some of the others mentioned. But he's one of the few who actually does perform assasinations in the series.

Ok True Rallick hasn't been mentioned since SE made the worst decision in the world...I know, I know, SE is like the most badass fANtasy writer ever...and unlike many MANY other authors has only done a few things I didn't much like...which funnily enough on second and third rereads became a much smaller list...anyway, i digress...

SE did one thing, in one page in one book, which ruined Rallick noms badassity forever...

You all know what it is...

in TTH Rallick comes out of the Azath (fans everywhere errupt in gleeful exultation at the poison knife weilding shitstorm thats about to happen) He approaches someone he recognizes, someone who, in this one deft stroke, could be turned from a crappy, moaning, boring turd, into the fun youthful thief from way back when every character was great fun (GOTM)
He approaches and suddenly is beaten and near killed in a KNIFE FIGHT...but sodding crokus....

Crokus, beats Rallick Nom....RALLICK NOM!!!! RALLICK, IM SO HARD I WEAR MY I R ASSASSIN SHIRT OUT IN THE DAYTIME JUST TO PISS OFF THE LOCALS....

so therefore sadly, in a straight up list of best assassins, unless we want to put crokus on the list (and by hoods wrinkly sack we dont want that) we cant by admonition put rallick nom up there (((

SE WHY, WHYYYYYYY??????

Anyway my favourite assassins....thats a better list

Dancer
KALAM
Rallick Nom
Topper
Vorcan

there we go, love for house nom

[Vaddon Ra]

Silencer, on 20 April 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Ahhhh, but Laseen got KILLED. Meanwhile Topper fought Cowl across a continent and drove him into an Azath[i]. I mean, sure, Cowl may have been worn out, but c'mon...Topper kicked his ass. XD As I said, I kinda think that was "all part of the plan" (Cowl strikes me as a man with a long game) to some extent, but even so. I grant you, if this was Cotillion we were talking about in place of Cowl, I'd be defending him to the death, but [i]nothing we have seen of him has made me respect his abilities at all. Far too dismissive of Tays, and everything else is rumour of "back in the day" which, as we've seen, means zip in the modern context. He's like Skinner - all his badassery is in the past. Bring him into the present and, boom, he's nothing. I mean, this is a guy who, when he was Avowed, High Mage Veil, went toe to toe with Dancer (supposedly). With a mortal, non-high-mage Dancer. Who was probably also fighting several Veils at the same time, lol. If he ran up against Cotillion, do you honestly think the fight would be even a fraction of the time it took Topper to fight him into an Azath? Really? Until on-screen events show otherwise, Cowl is not that hot, imnsho.

Quote

silencer, appreciate the comments, but as i said we see him as dancer in one book and he was taken out by a heavily prepared area..... set out by an assassin and her claw, we see more of Lasseen and the rest to make the assumptions, after all in most cases in the book Dancer has ascended and as such only his god form should be used..... and we never actually got to see him battle in real time. That was the only point I was trying to make.

-Silk

Ah, yeah, I think I mentioned that that's what you were getting at. I think we agree that we don't actually 'see' him as Dancer, as the fight is offscreen, but he apparently kicked ass and took names while fighting under severe handicap, if we just go by the aftermath...in a 'loss' that was pretty much engineered because they were going for the Azath. So I think we're basically seeing the same thing and drawing different conclusions. But yeah, we don't see Dancer pre-ascension ever do anything 'onscreen'.

Cowl also has a mage fight with anomander rake....although your right, all the speculation about cowl is hearsay. He 'may' have done this, he 'could' have done that...ooooooh, so he might have a long game....well yeah, but sadly he's like skinner....mad and madly ambitious....yeah he's hard, but Topper is a pimp and, well actually he's mad too XD but Cowl runs, and runs and knowing he's had it hides away....so er, he lost...and damn it he woul dhave lost to rake too...

oh actually, best assassin....Karsa Orlong.... HOC He goes in at night, blindsides a bunch of 'assassins' tears them a new asshole, then sets about stealth killing a bunhc of high mages and high priests just because he doesnt like them much

So to renew my list

Top Assassins

Karsa Orlong
Dancer
Kalam
Rallick Nom (cos SE was drunk when he wrote that bit in TTH of course he admitted to it.... .... .... )
Topper

BOOM!

[The dancing game]

Tavore wins. Subtly killing people will knives may be talented, but getting them to kill themselves is by far the most shadowy.
In the list you listed, I would certainly choose Dancer.

[Brujah]

Silencer, on 15 April 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Silk, on 15 April 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

hmmmm...... these lists are done to death and are very subjective based on how one has interpreted the story and the little snippets of information given throughout about their abilities.

I personally feel that Dancer shouldn't be in the list as in all honesty the only time we actually see him as Dancer in the series he is taken out by Laseen and the claw through use of a prepared environment, however in his God form there is no touching him.

*ahem* He is 'taken out' by Laseen and, what was it again, like a DOZEN of the BEST CLAW and TOPPER while defending a USELESS Kellanved and that pretty much went according to their plan. Yeah, we haven't seen enough of Dancer to place him. No sir.


Plus, we did not actually ever see Dancer. All we have is knowledge of his sheer badassery through other sources, which is what you're getting at, I take it. But those stories are enough to say he was easily in the top five, and probably the number one if he was still mortal. My argument would be that Dancer IS Cotillion, so there's no point in listing him as a separate entity, except to point out that way back when he was still the top man. Considering his list of accomplishments (assassinated the Protectress of Li Heng, was apparently an absolute terror to enemy command positions on the battlefield, akin to a Veil assault - except he was doing that to AVOWED - and fucked the shit out of the best Claw essentially with one hand tied behind his back) I think we can safely say that he has more credit to his name than most others we see in action. Because let's face it, Apsalar owns shit up, yes, but she is outright stated to basically be Cotillion-clone, which means if we're ignoring him, we should ignore her.


That's the trouble with this stuff. If you ignore the God, you're left with his carbon copy, his unascended self, a lizard-demon-monster, and then "everyone else", by all measures.


For example, we KNOW that Cowl, current-gen, ran himself into an Azath to get away from Topper. So technically Topper is better than Cowl (except Cowl is likely playing a long-game, was worn out, etc, etc) so I don't know why everyone keeps ranking Cowl up there. We know that Dancer wouldn't cross Kalam back in the day - but that strikes me as more of a "could kill you, but don't want to take the risk/get too wounded to do so" mentality, no? It's the same reason someone like Rake can't just go around lopping heads - if he expends enough effort/gets too weighed down by Dragnipur, even he can be taken out by someone further down the food chain.


Thus:

1. Cotillion/Dancer
2. Apsalar
3. Shi'gal
4. Kalam
5. Topper
6. Cowl
7. Laseen (possibly higher, I concede)
8. Mebbe Vorcan

And everyone else is mincemeat.

1. CotillonDancer - he is THE Patron of Assassins and has the best nickname and weapon - The Rope
2. Apsalar - easily almost as good as Cotillon, therefore number 2 definitely.
3. Kalam - I'd rank Kalam over anyone else, except Cotillon, and therefore Apsalar. Above Laseen because Kalam seemed confident that could he get to Laseen, he could kill her. She also seemed wary of him.
4. Laseen - she was head of the claw, became Empress, and owned avowed
5. Vorcan - a demon in human form, guild master of Darjustan assassins, fought Raest
- "The ease with which she'd dispelled his power made it clear that she was his master in sorcery." - Baruk
- better than both Cowl and Topper in sorcery, imo, which would be the key between these 3.
6. Topper/Cowl - Cowl was good but still second under Shimmer. Topper is under Laseen. Could go either way.
7. Pearl - wanted to throw Pearl in here last, not as good as these but still should be mentioned.

[Grimjazz]

Ignoring that TTH ever happened I'd say for me it goes


1, Rallick Nom (just a pure badass assassin)

2, Cowl (it's his reputation that does it for me plus that bit in BaB when he escapes the Azath, just awesome)


3, Topper (Cool as fuck when he is hiding in the Imperial Warren)

4, Dancer (pre-ascension)


5, Kalam (especially when aided by Quick Ben, woohoo)


6, Cotillion ((end of the TCG))

7, Redmask (in that first scene in RG only)


8, Vorcan


9, Pearl


10, Surly

This post has been edited by Grimjazz: 18 August 2013 - 11:29 AM

[YouSikFuk]

if all of them consume ottataral ( thus no magic involved) i'll pick

1. Dancer and Sorry/Apsalar
2. Dancer and Sorry/Apsalar
3. Shigal
4. Everyone else ( Kalam will probably have an edge though)

[Kanese S's]

I like that list, ha ha.

[Vaddon Ra]

Won't count apsalar COs its not her skill,



dancer
topper/kalam/cowl
vorcan
surly
rallick nom



i know nom gets beat by cutter....but eww

[Mob]

Where is it said that even Dancer was wary of Kalam?

[Kanese S's]

Vaddon Ra, on 30 September 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Won't count apsalar COs its not her skill,



dancer
topper/kalam/cowl
vorcan
surly
rallick nom



i know nom gets beat by cutter....but eww

Apsalar got her skills an unusual way, but she has also maintained them. And even given Ammanas pause in her efficacy.

However, for the purpose of list-making (a somewhat dubious endeavor), she and Cotillion/Dancer basically count as the same, since she's, beyond not using a rope, pretty much the same, so wherever Cotillion/Dancer is ranked, that's about where she is, also.

[Andorion]

Mob, on 04 January 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

Where is it said that even Dancer was wary of Kalam?

Forgetting that one, but either in DG or in TBH there is a quote where I think Shadowthrone watches Kalam at work and says not even Dancer

[Aptorian]

That's Apsalar in Bonehunters.

[Mob]

Apt, on 05 January 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

That's Apsalar in Bonehunters.

I've searched the books and I actually think it's the conversation between Topper and Laseen on p. 909 (UK edition) on Deadhouse Gates. It comes immediately after Kalam leaves Laseen towards the end of the book. She and Topper speak and he says that 'even Dancer himself would have hesitated before taking on Kalam Mekhar'.