[robmafia]

There are a lot of bad ass assassins in the series. Who do you reckon is the baddest?

Obv 1. Cotillion and 2. Apsalar (when Shadow Dancing). Nobody else can hang.

But among mere mortals, I speculate:

1. Kalam (even Dancer wouldnt cross him)
2. Dancer (ie pre-ascension)
3. Cowl
4. Laseen/Surly
5. Topper
6. Pearl

[Aptorian]

How far up do you want this discussion to go? The crippled god? Could you perhaps put a spoiler in the topic description?

If we're going all the way to the latest books then

TCG spoilers!

Spoiler

I would probably put the Shigal assassin just below Cotillion and Apsalar. But they are not on this list so I think it wins. Seeing as the Shigal is a mortal creature I think it would kill all the people on this list, maybe with the exception of Dancer since he was a very strong magic user even before he ascended. Unless you have the strength and speed and magic of a god I think you'd have a heck of a time competing against a 6 meter tall lizard monster that can make itself invisible and make you go to sleep when it sweats.

Also, these Assassin discussion often seem silly to me. These assassins aren't really being discussed as Assassins. You seldom see them actually assassinating people. Assassins work in the dark and kill people with out you seeing them. They use poisons and traps and subtlety. What we're actually discussing here is peoples prowess in a fight, probably with a blade.

[Kanese S's]

At the level of skill we're talking about, I think it's less a matter of "who is better?" than it is of "who is having a better day?"

[Aptorian]

Unless you're 6 meters tall.

[worry]

Can you kill a KCCM with paralt, do you think?

[champ]

worrywort, on 14 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Can you kill a KCCM with paralt, do you think?

A KCCM would probbly use paralt as toothpaste

[Eddie Dean]

When someone is "Shadow Dancing", isn't it actually the Rope that is doing the killing?

[Seras]

Eddie Dean, on 14 April 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

When someone is "Shadow Dancing", isn't it actually the Rope that is doing the killing?

DoD/TBH Spoilers

Spoiler

I believe what you're thinking of is Lostara Yil's Shadow Dance, where she was possessed by Cotillion. I don't think it applies to every Shadow Dance, however, since Apsalar pulls it off without any assistance in Malaz, and against the Hounds.

TCG Spoilers

Spoiler

I get the feeling that powerful magic-wielders would stand a chance against the Shigal. It's strengths seem to be in its physical capabilities (flight, paralyzing gas, razor claws, ectr), rather than magical prowess.

As for human assassins, I'd go with...

1) Dancer
2) Cowl
3) Apsalar
4) Kalam
5) Laseen
6) Topper

[Silk]

hmmmm...... these lists are done to death and are very subjective based on how one has interpreted the story and the little snippets of information given throughout about their abilities.

I personally feel that Dancer shouldn't be in the list as in all honesty the only time we actually see him as Dancer in the series he is taken out by Laseen and the claw through use of a prepared environment, however in his God form there is no touching him.

[Silencer]

Silk, on 15 April 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

hmmmm...... these lists are done to death and are very subjective based on how one has interpreted the story and the little snippets of information given throughout about their abilities.

I personally feel that Dancer shouldn't be in the list as in all honesty the only time we actually see him as Dancer in the series he is taken out by Laseen and the claw through use of a prepared environment, however in his God form there is no touching him.

*ahem* He is 'taken out' by Laseen and, what was it again, like a DOZEN of the BEST CLAW and TOPPER while defending a USELESS Kellanved and that pretty much went according to their plan. Yeah, we haven't seen enough of Dancer to place him. No sir.


Plus, we did not actually ever see Dancer. All we have is knowledge of his sheer badassery through other sources, which is what you're getting at, I take it. But those stories are enough to say he was easily in the top five, and probably the number one if he was still mortal. My argument would be that Dancer IS Cotillion, so there's no point in listing him as a separate entity, except to point out that way back when he was still the top man. Considering his list of accomplishments (assassinated the Protectress of Li Heng, was apparently an absolute terror to enemy command positions on the battlefield, akin to a Veil assault - except he was doing that to AVOWED - and fucked the shit out of the best Claw essentially with one hand tied behind his back) I think we can safely say that he has more credit to his name than most others we see in action. Because let's face it, Apsalar owns shit up, yes, but she is outright stated to basically be Cotillion-clone, which means if we're ignoring him, we should ignore her.


That's the trouble with this stuff. If you ignore the God, you're left with his carbon copy, his unascended self, a lizard-demon-monster, and then "everyone else", by all measures.


For example, we KNOW that Cowl, current-gen, ran himself into an Azath to get away from Topper. So technically Topper is better than Cowl (except Cowl is likely playing a long-game, was worn out, etc, etc) so I don't know why everyone keeps ranking Cowl up there. We know that Dancer wouldn't cross Kalam back in the day - but that strikes me as more of a "could kill you, but don't want to take the risk/get too wounded to do so" mentality, no? It's the same reason someone like Rake can't just go around lopping heads - if he expends enough effort/gets too weighed down by Dragnipur, even he can be taken out by someone further down the food chain.


Thus:

1. Cotillion/Dancer
2. Apsalar
3. Shi'gal
4. Kalam
5. Topper
6. Cowl
7. Laseen (possibly higher, I concede)
8. Mebbe Vorcan

And everyone else is mincemeat.

[BlackMoranthofDoom]

No love for Rallick Nom . Sure he isn't near the level of some of the others mentioned. But he's one of the few who actually does perform assasinations in the series.

[Kanese S's]

Silencer, on 15 April 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Thus:

1. Cotillion/Dancer
2. Apsalar
3. Shi'gal
4. Kalam
5. Topper
6. Cowl
7. Laseen (possibly higher, I concede)
8. Mebbe Vorcan

And everyone else is mincemeat.

Basically, but I'd list Laseen/Surly higher than Topper.


One criticism of lists I have is that they allow no room for concluding that two entries are evenly matched. Personally, I think that Laseen is probably marginally more deadly than Topper, but not by much, and that Kalam and Cowl are sort of clustered in the same neighborhood. Topper is better than Cowl, I'd say, based on their fight, but only slightly, and I'm not sure where in there Kalam would fit.

But like I said earlier, besides Cotillion/Dancer and Sorry/Apsalar, who as you mention is basically the same as the Rope (except for not using a rope), I think among the top assassins of Wu, it basically would come down to the circumstance of the confrontation, and which party had the advantage due to such.

[Silencer]

Well, you could put, for example, "5. Laseen and Topper (ish)" - but this is the case with almost all Malazan lists, the top two, or maybe three, are fairly clear. After that, unless they've actually faced off or faced the same opponent with all difference clear and weighted appropriately, it becomes increasingly hard to rank. In this case we've got more than average comparative battles, which is why it's fairly easy to lay out the top 5-7, with people around the bottom vying for an exact number. I mean, we have to consider that Vorcan was a High Mage (at least in theory), and that her half-demon(!) daughter was pretty kickass, which is why I struggle to place her. And Kalam was apparently very confident of just walking in and killing Laseen - perhaps he underestimates her skills, but she clearly didn't want to face him, and Dancer didn't either. Thus I rate him very highly. But in terms of on-screen feats, it certainly is quite hard to place him (killing the Claw in need of culling seems to be a tradition for lone wolf badasses, heh, but it still makes for little comparative value).

Still, I'm fairly happy with that layout, knowing that everyone below the Shi'gal are flexible, and depend extremely on circumstance and preparedness. I'm trying to assume that both parties know they're duelling and are no more prepared than they would be on an average (murderous) Friday, but that's pretty hard to gauge. For example, Laseen could very well have been ranked higher, if she hadn't (foolishly) let her guard down at the end of RotCG and got stabbity-stabbed. Cowl as of book one would be, on hearsay alone, beyond most except the Shi'gal, and possibly even him. But again, as of RotCG, he drops several ranks, while Topper gains considerably.


*shrug* Thus we're back to a stable top three and a variable everyone else. But hey, at least it's something, right?

[Supernova]

I agree with everything Silencer has said *nods*

[Silk]

Silencer, on 15 April 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Silk, on 15 April 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

hmmmm...... these lists are done to death and are very subjective based on how one has interpreted the story and the little snippets of information given throughout about their abilities.

I personally feel that Dancer shouldn't be in the list as in all honesty the only time we actually see him as Dancer in the series he is taken out by Laseen and the claw through use of a prepared environment, however in his God form there is no touching him.

*ahem* He is 'taken out' by Laseen and, what was it again, like a DOZEN of the BEST CLAW and TOPPER while defending a USELESS Kellanved and that pretty much went according to their plan. Yeah, we haven't seen enough of Dancer to place him. No sir.


Plus, we did not actually ever see Dancer. All we have is knowledge of his sheer badassery through other sources, which is what you're getting at, I take it. But those stories are enough to say he was easily in the top five, and probably the number one if he was still mortal. My argument would be that Dancer IS Cotillion, so there's no point in listing him as a separate entity, except to point out that way back when he was still the top man. Considering his list of accomplishments (assassinated the Protectress of Li Heng, was apparently an absolute terror to enemy command positions on the battlefield, akin to a Veil assault - except he was doing that to AVOWED - and fucked the shit out of the best Claw essentially with one hand tied behind his back) I think we can safely say that he has more credit to his name than most others we see in action. Because let's face it, Apsalar owns shit up, yes, but she is outright stated to basically be Cotillion-clone, which means if we're ignoring him, we should ignore her.


That's the trouble with this stuff. If you ignore the God, you're left with his carbon copy, his unascended self, a lizard-demon-monster, and then "everyone else", by all measures.


For example, we KNOW that Cowl, current-gen, ran himself into an Azath to get away from Topper. So technically Topper is better than Cowl (except Cowl is likely playing a long-game, was worn out, etc, etc) so I don't know why everyone keeps ranking Cowl up there. We know that Dancer wouldn't cross Kalam back in the day - but that strikes me as more of a "could kill you, but don't want to take the risk/get too wounded to do so" mentality, no? It's the same reason someone like Rake can't just go around lopping heads - if he expends enough effort/gets too weighed down by Dragnipur, even he can be taken out by someone further down the food chain.


Thus:

1. Cotillion/Dancer
2. Apsalar
3. Shi'gal
4. Kalam
5. Topper
6. Cowl
7. Laseen (possibly higher, I concede)
8. Mebbe Vorcan

And everyone else is mincemeat.

silencer, appreciate the comments, but as i said we see him as dancer in one book and he was taken out by a heavily prepared area..... set out by an assassin and her claw, we see more of Lasseen and the rest to make the assumptions, after all in most cases in the book Dancer has ascended and as such only his god form should be used..... and we never actually got to see him battle in real time. That was the only point I was trying to make.

[rhulad]

BlackMoranthofDoom, on 15 April 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

No love for Rallick Nom . Sure he isn't near the level of some of the others mentioned. But he's one of the few who actually does perform assasinations in the series.

Compared to the others already mentioned, Nom isn't that good IMO. TTH spoiler

Spoiler

Cutter/Crokus kicked his ass with little difficulty. The only reason that he survived is cause Crokus realized who he was.

1. Dancer
2. Apsalar
3. Kalam
4. Cowl
5. Laseen
6. Topper
7. Vorcan

Topper and Vorcan could probably be interchanged, but we haven't really seen much of her skill. No mention by me of the lizard cause he is a flying lizard.

[worry]

1. Feral - so deadly SE doesn't even want to write about her, lest his readership flea in terror.

[Vengeance]

What counts as assassination??? Would giant ice flows that suddenly form and crush you count? If so I would like to put some jughut on the list...

[Azathmaster]

I don't see why Laseen is so low, as in RotCG, we see her killing Avowed with hands and feet, and yeah, yeah, Topper jumps out of the Imperial warren to take out Cowl, but Laseen would have won IMO as Cowl was heavily reliant on magic, while Laseen had otataral dust scattered all around her. She could take down Kalam or Cowl alone, so I'd rank her 3rd.
Also, Apsalar is only as good as she is because she was possessed by Cotillion, I think as she is mortal, she is pretty much exactly equal to Dancer, so she is kind or implied in the Dancer ranking. Because of these things, I'd rank like this:

1. Cotillion
2. Dancer (also Apsalar)
3. Laseen
4. Cowl
5. Kalam/Topper (can't decide who is better)
6. Vorcan
7. Rallick Nom (He's good, as we've seen)

100000. The men sent to assassinate the retired Bridgeburners in Darujhistan. They got owned.

[Silencer]

Ahhhh, but Laseen got KILLED. Meanwhile Topper fought Cowl across a continent and drove him into an Azath[i]. I mean, sure, Cowl may have been worn out, but c'mon...Topper kicked his ass. XD As I said, I kinda think that was "all part of the plan" (Cowl strikes me as a man with a long game) to some extent, but even so. I grant you, if this was Cotillion we were talking about in place of Cowl, I'd be defending him to the death, but [i]nothing we have seen of him has made me respect his abilities at all. Far too dismissive of Tays, and everything else is rumour of "back in the day" which, as we've seen, means zip in the modern context. He's like Skinner - all his badassery is in the past. Bring him into the present and, boom, he's nothing. I mean, this is a guy who, when he was Avowed, High Mage Veil, went toe to toe with Dancer (supposedly). With a mortal, non-high-mage Dancer. Who was probably also fighting several Veils at the same time, lol. If he ran up against Cotillion, do you honestly think the fight would be even a fraction of the time it took Topper to fight him into an Azath? Really? Until on-screen events show otherwise, Cowl is not that hot, imnsho.

Quote

silencer, appreciate the comments, but as i said we see him as dancer in one book and he was taken out by a heavily prepared area..... set out by an assassin and her claw, we see more of Lasseen and the rest to make the assumptions, after all in most cases in the book Dancer has ascended and as such only his god form should be used..... and we never actually got to see him battle in real time. That was the only point I was trying to make.

-Silk

Ah, yeah, I think I mentioned that that's what you were getting at. I think we agree that we don't actually 'see' him as Dancer, as the fight is offscreen, but he apparently kicked ass and took names while fighting under severe handicap, if we just go by the aftermath...in a 'loss' that was pretty much engineered because they were going for the Azath. So I think we're basically seeing the same thing and drawing different conclusions. But yeah, we don't see Dancer pre-ascension ever do anything 'onscreen'.