[Jorram]

Sorry if this has been asked before, I didn't dare to forum search due to spoilers but short story is, i finally got to reading the crippled god after my 4th and finally successful attempt to dig through Dust of Dreams.

So far it's been pretty awesome and well, I know the timeline shouldn't be minded too much, but one thing's been nagging me and it's a bit too glaring to miss.

When Draconus and Ublala are joined by Ralata the Barghast woman, she tells him the story of Tool, the T'lan Imass and Olar Ethil.
Draconus then, figuring out what T'lan means, curses Olar Ethil for being a bitch to do that to the Imass.

It's all spelled out as though the Ritual happened after Draconus' demise at the hands of Rake, and he is pissed to find out about it.
However, as per MOI's prologue, it's obvious that Draconus was still very much in the world at the time of Dessimbelackis and Kallor, which happens many thousands of years after the Tellann ritual.

What's up with that? Did I misinterpret his reaction? I frankly don't see any other possible interpretation.

Btw, I'm only up to the first fourth of the book, so don't spoiler away anything further than, e.g. Ruthan walking back to the Bonehunters with Bottle.

[Fredwin]

Jorram, on 11 April 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

Sorry if this has been asked before, I didn't dare to forum search due to spoilers but short story is, i finally got to reading the crippled god after my 4th and finally successful attempt to dig through Dust of Dreams.

So far it's been pretty awesome and well, I know the timeline shouldn't be minded too much, but one thing's been nagging me and it's a bit too glaring to miss.

When Draconus and Ublala are joined by Ralata the Barghast woman, she tells him the story of Tool, the T'lan Imass and Olar Ethil.
Draconus then, figuring out what T'lan means, curses Olar Ethil for being a bitch to do that to the Imass.

It's all spelled out as though the Ritual happened after Draconus' demise at the hands of Rake, and he is pissed to find out about it.
However, as per MOI's prologue, it's obvious that Draconus was still very much in the world at the time of Dessimbelackis and Kallor, which happens many thousands of years after the Tellann ritual.

What's up with that? Did I misinterpret his reaction? I frankly don't see any other possible interpretation.

Btw, I'm only up to the first fourth of the book, so don't spoiler away anything further than, e.g. Ruthan walking back to the Bonehunters with Bottle.

Like you said, the timeline is wishy-washy and trying to make every event fit perfectally is just not going to happen.

My feelings on it are just this: Draconus just didn't care at the time. He didn't know it happened, or maybe he did but he didn't know exactly who was responsible for the ritual.

[worry]

It's been a year since I read it, but I think his anger regards Silverfox, not Olar Ethil. Silverfox, who is part Sister of Cold Nights (his own EG sister), who refused to let the T'lan Imass who came to her go, and who may very well have a grudge against Tellann given its roots with Light. That's all conjecture on my part, no spoilers. That said, OE is a factor in this book, and you may draw a plausible different conclusion as to what Draconus meant by the time you finish.

[tiam]

Jorram, on 11 April 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

Sorry if this has been asked before, I didn't dare to forum search due to spoilers but short story is, i finally got to reading the crippled god after my 4th and finally successful attempt to dig through Dust of Dreams.

So far it's been pretty awesome and well, I know the timeline shouldn't be minded too much, but one thing's been nagging me and it's a bit too glaring to miss.

When Draconus and Ublala are joined by Ralata the Barghast woman, she tells him the story of Tool, the T'lan Imass and Olar Ethil.
Draconus then, figuring out what T'lan means, curses Olar Ethil for being a bitch to do that to the Imass.

It's all spelled out as though the Ritual happened after Draconus' demise at the hands of Rake, and he is pissed to find out about it.
However, as per MOI's prologue, it's obvious that Draconus was still very much in the world at the time of Dessimbelackis and Kallor, which happens many thousands of years after the Tellann ritual.

What's up with that? Did I misinterpret his reaction? I frankly don't see any other possible interpretation.

Btw, I'm only up to the first fourth of the book, so don't spoiler away anything further than, e.g. Ruthan walking back to the Bonehunters with Bottle.

Draconus timeline is odd. He should theoretically have known about the Tlan Imass. I thought, unlike Worrywort, that he was talking about OE being a bicth but yes he should know. His timeline is a huge problem. According to the MOI prologue Draconusis still in the formative stages of forging Dragnipur. In either ROTCG or TTH we see that he uses Broods Hammer to forge the weapon in the fires of Burn. Now I cant remember if it actually says shes sleeping at that time, which would mean Draconus has only been imprisoned 1000 years or so, but either way theres a few problems.

As others have said dont wory about it until FoD comes out as its better to consider that as canonical.

[Puck]

To add to what worrywort said, there were several rituals, iirc, and they happened at different times in different places, so it may very well be that at the time Draconus was busy with Kallor it had already happened on Seven Cities but not elsewhere. But this is elabored on more later in tCG, so just read on, I'd say.

[MTS]

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 11 April 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

Jorram, on 11 April 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

Sorry if this has been asked before, I didn't dare to forum search due to spoilers but short story is, i finally got to reading the crippled god after my 4th and finally successful attempt to dig through Dust of Dreams.

So far it's been pretty awesome and well, I know the timeline shouldn't be minded too much, but one thing's been nagging me and it's a bit too glaring to miss.

When Draconus and Ublala are joined by Ralata the Barghast woman, she tells him the story of Tool, the T'lan Imass and Olar Ethil.
Draconus then, figuring out what T'lan means, curses Olar Ethil for being a bitch to do that to the Imass.

It's all spelled out as though the Ritual happened after Draconus' demise at the hands of Rake, and he is pissed to find out about it.
However, as per MOI's prologue, it's obvious that Draconus was still very much in the world at the time of Dessimbelackis and Kallor, which happens many thousands of years after the Tellann ritual.

What's up with that? Did I misinterpret his reaction? I frankly don't see any other possible interpretation.

Btw, I'm only up to the first fourth of the book, so don't spoiler away anything further than, e.g. Ruthan walking back to the Bonehunters with Bottle.

Draconus timeline is odd. He should theoretically have known about the Tlan Imass. I thought, unlike Worrywort, that he was talking about OE being a bicth but yes he should know. His timeline is a huge problem. According to the MOI prologue Draconus is still in the formative stages of forging Dragnipur. In either ROTCG or TTH we see that he uses Broods Hammer to forge the weapon in the fires of Burn. Now I cant remember if it actually says shes sleeping at that time, which would mean Draconus has only been imprisoned 1000 years or so, but either way theres a few problems.

As others have said dont wory about it until FoD comes out as its better to consider that as canonical.

Odd is right, because it does say she's dreaming. Then we apparently have Rake threatening Telorast and Curdle with Dragnipur during the Wars of Shadow, centuries before Dessimbelackis and Kallor, so there's that. There's too many conflicting pieces of information to get an accurate picture, but suffice it to say that it's incredibly odd Draconus wouldn't have known about the T'lan Imass unless he had left Wu before the Ritual and only come back for Kallor. I figured he was talking about OE as well, but worrywort's is a very interesting way to read that scene, since it could go either way.

[Jorram]

worrywort, on 11 April 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

It's been a year since I read it, but I think his anger regards Silverfox, not Olar Ethil. Silverfox, who is part Sister of Cold Nights (his own EG sister), who refused to let the T'lan Imass who came to her go, and who may very well have a grudge against Tellann given its roots with Light. That's all conjecture on my part, no spoilers. That said, OE is a factor in this book, and you may draw a plausible different conclusion as to what Draconus meant by the time you finish.

Like the others, it's kinda hard to concur with this interpretation because of all the "T'lan?.. Tellann! The bitch.." stuff. It's like he hears the word "T'lan" for the first time ever. Which totally doesn't make sense. Silverfox is a part of this conversation only so far as Ratala thinks Draconus bitches about Silverfox. He actually means Olar Ethil. I think

@MTS - Good point about the Wars of Shadow and Dragnipur. I remember vaguely the scene (was it a convo with OE? Or before that, with Apsalar?) but not sure if it's certainly Dragnipur or maybe Vengeance.

Dragnipur not yet forged in MOI but being forged in ROTCG prologue is still okay. He says "since the time of all darkness I've been forging a sword" in the MOI prologue. It probably didn't happen over a day, and once you start procrastinating, what's a couple hundred thousands of years anyway

[D'rek]

Another alternative is he's mad at Olar Ethil because the T'lan Imass still haven't been released from their eternal war and existance. Granted, since Kallor's empire was roughly 100k years Before Burn's Sleep and the Ritual of Tellann was 300k years BBS it's a bit weird for him to be okay with them existing 200 000 years but not 300 000... hmm. Maybe at the time of Kallor's Empire and up to when he got Dragnipur'd there were still numerous Jaghut around, and whether or not Draconus was happy about the T'lan Imass, he foresaw that they would be released from the Ritual soon. Then he comes out of Dragnipur to find Olar Ethil still manipulating and using them for her insane purposes, and is pissed.

As for the "T'lann... Tellan!" bit, well they are speaking some weird combination of Tarthenal/Letheri/Barghast/trader tongue if Ralata and Ublala are communicating okay, and Draconus hasn't been up-to-date on languages in centuries.


re the RotCG prologue: he doesn't have Dragnipur in that, he just has a void-y thing. Maybe the Gate of Darkness itself, before he put it in Dragnipur. He can go around for hudnreds of millenia with that thing and then make Dragnipur if he wants, so I see no problem with that. Note that it shows up when he visits Heuk, despite Draconus obviously not having Dragnipur at that point, so it doesn't seem like the same thing, IMO.

[worry]

I do agree the Sister of Cold Nights interpretation is totally not orthodox, but it is at the point they are discussing Silverfox that Draconus has his rage moment. I just thought it was worth mentioning a counter-theory. OE on the other hand definitely fits the "selfish, spiteful hag" epithet.

What I don't believe, even from this passage, is that Draconus doesn't know who the T'lan Imass are. In fact I'd say he very much knows who they are, and the name Onos Toolan has at least mild resonance with him. It's that Onos Toolan is still "bones" at the time of Silverfox that really surprises him, and when he makes the T'lan/Tellann connection -- I'm just not so sure it's a mere linguistic connection...he verbalizes it as such, but he might be making a deeper connection subtextually, which means there's something to the Tellann aspect he hadn't considered before. So something like D'rek's point in her first paragraph above is what made me start thinking of alternates to the OE theory.

[Kanese S's]

I like D'rek's interpretation, that he's shocked at the revelation that the Imass are still undead. Perhaps he's even more surprised that the Imass' situation has stayed virtually the same than that other things have changed.

[tiam]

Also we see that Dragnipur was a manifestation of power long before it was an actual blade, which might make fitting it in easier. We see it as an elemental entity in the ROTCG prologue (I still dont know what Draconus means by having union with the All' or some such at the end of that btw) but its still able to chain people. This actually makes more sense than Draconus forging a blade then going around killing people. He sets the gate in motion first then turns it into a sword.

Still alot of conflicting info though

[Puck]

Basically, D'rek's theory is pretty close to how I'm looking at it. Also, I don't see a contradiction between Draconus back during Kallor's time and now.. He might have been angry about the T'lan Imass being imprisoned by the ritual but that doesn't mean he would have actively done something to change that; he says himself he's changed between then and now, so now he's more willing to do something about the situation.

This post has been edited by Puck: 20 April 2012 - 09:52 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Puck, on 20 April 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Basically, D'rek's theory is pretty close to how I'm looking at it. Also, I don't see a contradiction between Draconus back during Kallor's time and now.. He might have been angry about the T'lan Imass being imprisoned by the ritual but that doesn't mean he would have actively done something to change that; he says himself he's changed between then and now, so now he's more willing to do something about the situation.

plus, i'm sure he can empathize. trapped in a deathless tormented parody of life for hundreds of thousands of years? draconus and the t'lan could talk you to death on the subject.