[stone monkey]

I'm going to put this here because it's probably slightly more involved than the usual fare in the Inn. And I'm not sure it belongs in the Other Literature section.

This article in Salon by the Arab-American Fantasy writer Saladin Ahmed sort of crystallises some of the thoughts I've had about the way race is dealt with in Fantasy - primarily in its generic Sword-and-Sorcery mode. I suspect one could equally well stretch the argument to gender and sexuality.

I personally would hazard that the reason why fantasy (and sf, for that matter) has a problematic engagement with these topics is pretty simple; it's primarily written by and for middle class white guys. But anyway, read the article, see what you think and discuss .

[Coco with marshmallows]

its an interesting enough article,

and though its focused on Martin primarily there is a fair amount of genre-wide truth to it.
With the obvious exception of our own SE, very few fantasy authors seem to have a significant number of non white protagonists.

But is that a problem that's due to inherent racism or cultural bias?
we're fairly inured to the idea of other cultures blending and mixing in these days, thanks to both cheap travel and television, movies, etc.

a hundred years ago though?
hundred and fifty?

or, since most fantasies tend to the medieval times - six hundred years ago?

If you were born in then in the British isles, you'd probably have to specifically travel for weeks, if not months, by boat to even SEE a non-white person.

So, is it a flaw of the writer reflecting current societal values, or is it simply that the culture the writer creates hasn't had the chance to interact with other cultures to the extent that we have?

In that respect, the idea that a foreign born prince (with a different colour of skin) would horrify a court lady enough to cause her to faint isn't that unusual.

So in that case....is it the writers fault?

[Terez]

This came up on Theoryland the other day, though it was a troll who started the thread. Brandon Sanderson has talked about it a little bit as well.

[D'rek]

I don't have any support for this, but in my opinion it's mostly a carry-over from the days before we were so globalized. Before there was the internet and before books got translated and sold so widely across the world novels would be written and read mostly within a single audience. A British author's novel would have mostly white characters because his novel would only be read in English by European and North American audiences, who are/were predominantly white. An Indian author would likewise write a novel starring mostly Indian characters and it would be written in Hindi, so the vast majority of the audience reading it would be fellow Indians.

Nowadays books get far more translations and are sold far more widely across the globe, so I think this trend may be slowly starting to reverse, but it will take time.

[Gust Hubb]

The other day, my wife and I were discussing racism (which is especially pertinent here in chicago, where races are often found grouped in specific regions/neighborhoods). She made the keen observation that in some respects, racism is almost a natural reflex: you tend to hang out with those like you. I think the same could be said of SF: you write what you know about. And this only builds on itself as one's interests attract other similar people and hence you have a group that is fairly homogenous as compared to the rest of the population.

Please note that I am in no way justifying racism, but rather observing that there is even "racism" across non-racial lines (smokers vs non-smokers, rich and poor, academic vs non-academic). I think most attempts by sf authors to write characters of different races plays a dangerous game with letting one's stereotypes and misconceptions leak into the character (like all arab-esq characters wear turbans and carry scimitars).

[Terez]

Good thing you don't have to breathe my smoke in webchat eh?

[Gust Hubb]

Terez, on 07 April 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Good thing you don't have to breathe my smoke in webchat eh?

You're assuming I don't smoke?

[worry]

Loki and I just had a non-discussion about this issue in the groove-messing thread, pretty interesting topic, but I personally come to the conclusion that GoT/GRRM isn't an especially strong example for Ahmed's case, even though the case certainly deserves to be made. Starts here: http://forum.malazan...ndpost&p=950169 just so I don't repeat myself or her too much. Suffice to say I think the case Ahmed is making is valid, but GoT isn't necessarily the best example...I'd put it on par with Deadwood in terms of examining a particular part of the world while acknowledging there's a whole lot left out there, and including a bit of crossover without resorting to tokenism. As opposed to, say, The Walking Dead, which totally -- and dishearteningly -- indulges in naked tokenism. The publishing industry has a race bias, and the film & television industry certainly does, and I suppose when you combine the two you get some pretty glaring examples (Nicholas Sparks comes to mind), but as I said in that other thread, I think Ahmed is himself the best answer to the problem: a (reportedly, as I haven't read him) talented content creator who challenges industry trends and prejudices. The other side of that coin, as Loki pointed out, is that the fantasy audience has to be more savvy about this as a community and as a marketplace, and simply rally around good writers of a more diverse background (not excluding very well-written European based fantasy either, of course).

[Ulrik]

Well, I think that choosing AGOT isnt best. Its IMO really depicting stereotypes with wink of eye and equally in both ways - so its spreading prejudice about westerosi in "Middle East" and vice versa. And Martin is combining it well with showing real persons opposing those stereotypes. But yeah, I think that fantasy is full of simple views ans schematism.

But I dont think racism is right term. I would rather go for Orientalism. Its not really about race, its about culture.

[Terez]

Gust Hubb, on 07 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Terez, on 07 April 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Good thing you don't have to breathe my smoke in webchat eh?

You're assuming I don't smoke?

It was more of a general you.

[Gust Hubb]

Terez, on 07 April 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 07 April 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Terez, on 07 April 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Good thing you don't have to breathe my smoke in webchat eh?

You're assuming I don't smoke?

It was more of a general you.

Fair enough , though it depends on what you are smoking

[King Lear]

I think I agree with what Stone Monkey says in the OP. When I was a kid, and perhaps less so now than then, fantasy was mostly read by white, middle-class boys. I also think/hope that is something that's changing and will mean that there will be more demand for different sorts of fantasy.

I read through a couple of page of the comments before I got sick of them (Although the ones saying "that's problem with the internet, anyone can say anything" were amusing.)

As a sort of side note, I noticed a number of people in the comments section disagreed with the author on the basis that there were no black people/other people of colour in medieval Europe. It's funny, because that's a skewed perception, which is kind of what Saladin Ahmed was saying about the books he mentions.... The Moors invaded modern day Spain, Portugal and I believe bits of France in about 800CE, Constantinople was a 'Western' city until it was absorbed into the Ottoman Empire in the 15th century, one of Shakespeare's sonnets was probably written about a black woman in England's court, Moorish knights turn up in middle English Arthurian tales, there were apparently regiments from Africa in a number of Roman armies, not to mention that trade, while it took a lot longer than today, meant that people from northern Africa, the Middle East and Europe weren't exactly completely out of contact with each other. Sure, if you were a peasant living in the back end of some little village in the middle of Wales you'd probably not be too likely to come into contact with anyone who wasn't white, but how much fantasy fiction revolves around medieval-like peasants growing turnips?

Saying that people are white in those stories because everyone was white in the period they're based on ignores the nuances of medieval culture. Maybe I just care about stuff like that because I'm a nerd and studied a lot of medieval history and literature, but I do feel that if people don't care if their books mainly focus on white people or then that shouldn't be trying to justify that with something that has little basis in fact.

[stone monkey]

This.

I think medieval Europe has been whitewashed in the collective imagination. So fantasy writers, when using a pseudo-medieval setting, are perhaps unconsciously making it match their preconceptions.

One might point out that the earlier Roman society was way more ethnically diverse than is commonly held (they had at least one black Emperor ffs) and they had the eminently sensible habit of stationing their legions a long way away from where they were raised. And also that, via the crusades, the elites of Europe (and fantasy fiction is most often written about their analogues) had plenty contact with the Arab and Persian civilisations and that this continued through the Ottoman Empire period.

As has been mentioned trade is a huge issue too, think about the silk road and, if you must, the slave trade (which went both ways). Arguably the perceived lack of racial diversity in Europe is a factor of the post-medieval colonial period - but even then you have say Tiger Bay in Wales, which has a black community going back four or five centuries. And I suspect most other ports would have seen black sailors.

The argument from history is probably weaker than most would give it credit, as the world has been globalised for longer than you'd think.

You might say that authors write for their market and markets can have, let's call them requirements, that don't necessarily coincide with what an author might want to write. Look at the fuss made by some about a character from The Hunger Games being portrayed by a black actress - this despite the fact that the character is specifically described as being black in the book. Or indeed any time gay characters appear. Or the fact that a female name on the cover is likely to lead to lower sales for fantasy and sf novels.

I would argue that fantasy is an inherently conservative genre (and to a lesser extent sf, which by its nature has sometimes got to ask hard questions and extrapolate beyond today). Fantasy, especially its more popular generic form, is mostly about how the past was better; the Golden Age that has now been lost or is about to be lost. And for its still primarily white, middle-class, male audience I would argue that the real Golden Age that has been lost was the 1950s; where women and minorities "knew their place" and gay people weren't seen.

As to why most of the Urban Fantasies I've read are whitewashed too; I haven't a clue. Maybe it's the old "write what you know' thing.

[Terez]

As far as 'write what you know' goes, I think RJ had that difficulty to an extent. That can partly be demonstrated in some things I mentioned in the thread above (namely his treatment of race and slavery which I think is a deliberate contrast to our own experience with it in the US, particularly in the Deep South where tensions still linger), but also in things like gay characters. At first he didn't have any, and then he started dropping them in along the way. But only lesbians. He could handle writing lesbians, but trying to write a gay man apparently gave him the willies.

[worry]

One series that was really problematic along these lines for me, even though I enjoyed it in high school and still have affection for it, is the Belgariad/Malloreon stuff. This series seems to be both entirely whitewashed AND distinctly (if unwittingly) racist. I mean, pretty much all the "races" are just different races of humans, there's not really many humanoid counterparts (like elves, dwarves, whatever) to take that cultural burden away. And while a lot of the European style races get mocked and stuff, it's usually all in good fun (those Viking analogue dudes, or the Mandorallen chivalrous knights). On the other hand, the jungle race is about as corrupt as you can get, and all the Eastern races are either inherently villainous or incredibly stupid -- that whole race of moron piggy farm peasants maybe worst of all. It irked me the first time through, and was downright creepy when I re-read it in college, so I think it's a pretty good example of what this thread is talking about.

[stone monkey]

It was actually the Belgariad that first got me thinking about these things way back in my teens in the 80s. Even then my politically naive self spotted that there might be issues. Which caused me to go back and read Tolkien with a more critical eye. I think I may even have written an article about it for the 'zine of my University SF& Fantasy Society - being a black student at a British university back in the late 80s was an eye-opening experience (and not for just me - someone a bit younger than me told me the other day that I was the first black person they ever knew who went to University)

I think during the 80s tokenism, rather than outright racism (however unthinking), became the problem - as I was far from the first to notice the issue (Michael Moorcock's personal overview of the fantasy genre Wizardry and Wild Romance talks about it; taking both CS Lewis and Tolkien to task iirc). I can think of a few books from the late 80s/early 90s where the author appears to have thought: "I'll make this supporting character black, that'll add a hint of exoticism."

[the broken]

How much of this is due to reader assumptions, though? I mean, I don't think it's very often directly stated that the protgonists are white. Fantasy worlds aren't limited to earth races, what makes you think that the main characters aren't green, unless the author states 'These are Caucasians'

I debated something like this recently, about masked, uniformed soldiers in a particular canon. Why assume they are white men unless you have been told by the narration? 'Pale skin' isn't always described.

[stone monkey]

Even the words "pale skin" can have different meaning depending on who is saying it. I would describe my mother as having "pale skin", but she's not Caucasian; she's much paler than me though.

A case in point: how many people have the mental image of the characters in Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea novels as Caucasian, despite the reader being explicitly told that the vast majority of them aren't ? I can remember a discussion I had on the subject with one of my white friends a many years ago. I was telling him that as a child I found myself quite struck by the fact that almost all of them were dark skinned, as it was a pleasant change to read a fantasy book with characters that looked like me. His reaction: "OMG! They are, aren't they? I'd never seen them in my head that way."

[Destiny]

But isn't it also the fact that some authors don't feel the need to specify that someone is Caucasian. We're sort of subconsciously taught that white = normal, and all the rest must be specified.

I know that I sometimes have trouble imagining characters as black (don't know why, it's not on purpose I can assure you). It took me a long time to see Anomander Rake as dark-skinned in my head. I knew he was, and SE mentions it often enough, but it just didn't happen for me. Yet Quick Ben and Kalam were dark-skinned from the beginning.

Maybe my brain is just weird...

[amphibian]

Destiny, on 08 April 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

But isn't it also the fact that some authors don't feel the need to specify that someone is Caucasian. We're sort of subconsciously taught that white = normal, and all the rest must be specified.

I know that I sometimes have trouble imagining characters as black (don't know why, it's not on purpose I can assure you). It took me a long time to see Anomander Rake as dark-skinned in my head. I knew he was, and SE mentions it often enough, but it just didn't happen for me. Yet Quick Ben and Kalam were dark-skinned from the beginning.

Maybe my brain is just weird...

Well, now that you know there's a problem, you can work to address it and not be subconsciously racist. It's not easy work nor one that is often recognized or rewarded, but it's worthwhile.

I really can't give that much of a pass to authors who do not write characters of difference ethnicity, skin color or cultures. Do some research, travel to a different place or have long talks with a variety of people who have been to those places. Go do something pro-active about that gap in the knowledge base, instead of sticking to what is comfortable and already known.

It's one of the reasons why I enjoy the Erikson and Esslemont Malazan books so much. Steve and Cam went around to a ton of places themselves, and due to their academic and professional pursuits, they realized that the people of the past moved around quite a bit, cultures mixed and clashed and the visions of historical homogeneity are actually wrong in most cases.

I effin' hate C.S. Lewis's shoddy efforts with the Telmarines and Calormens.