[worry]

I just don't agree with that at all, and I think GRRM is being held to a weird standard. This is a long-form single story, there's no reason for the middle books to feel climactic, especially after SoS was such a bold climax to the first act anyway. It seems natural that the next couple books start again from the bottom, and I also like that they are full of place-setting, wandering, occasionally even tangential threads. Momentum is an irrelevance at this point, since you're going up the roller coaster again after the first big drop and before the finale.

Also, Dany hasn't been almost going to Westeros for 5 books, that's just a misreading of the text. As a child she wanted to go immediately, as her brother taught her she'd be welcomed -- she then learned things weren't that easy -- and so she's been alternately preparative and hesitant up through ADWD. It largely makes sense, given her age and experience. There's some obvious storytelling flaws in her and Jon's chapters like time-wasting and repetition for padding, but that's two out of a bunch of POVs, and it's just plain pouty to pretend they infest the book as a whole. ADWD even vastly improved on the pirate storylines, after them being the worst parts by far of AFFC. It's also kind of presumptive to say GRRM doesn't know how to move the story forward, when clearly that was the Gordian Knot he was solving here...including setup for the last few books...which is a perfectly rational reason to take your time. The more whining I hear about this series (and this is not pointed at you, Ash, or even just folks on this board, since y'all are not remotely the worst offenders), the more glad I am that ADWD did not end with the big battles. I find it gleeful to have not given that to the self-important, entitled, incessantly complaining brats.

[polishgenius]

aSoIaF definitely has a planned timeline in general. The problem has come in when GRRM found himself eliminating a planned time-jump in the series, therefore writing about events that he hadn't intended to to start with. It's especially evident with Dany because she would have spent the intervening time building herself an army which she otherwise didn't have, and otherwise doing fuck all which shows, very much, in Dance where she basically regressed to a character she'd already evolved beyond by the start of the first book, just so she could spend the time developing as a character back to where she'd already sodding been.

It's an especial shame because, since GRRM decided it was a bad idea, several writers have shown that time-jumps can work fantastically well to move stories on without getting bloated - R Scott Bakker and Daniel Abraham being the most obvious examples.

[Asharak]

worrywort, on 06 December 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

I just don't agree with that at all, and I think GRRM is being held to a weird standard. This is a long-form single story, there's no reason for the middle books to feel climactic, especially after SoS was such a bold climax to the first act anyway. It seems natural that the next couple books start again from the bottom, and I also like that they are full of place-setting, wandering, occasionally even tangential threads. Momentum is an irrelevance at this point, since you're going up the roller coaster again after the first big drop and before the finale.

Also, Dany hasn't been almost going to Westeros for 5 books, that's just a misreading of the text. As a child she wanted to go immediately, as her brother taught her she'd be welcomed -- she then learned things weren't that easy -- and so she's been alternately preparative and hesitant up through ADWD. It largely makes sense, given her age and experience. There's some obvious storytelling flaws in her and Jon's chapters like time-wasting and repetition for padding, but that's two out of a bunch of POVs, and it's just plain pouty to pretend they infest the book as a whole. ADWD even vastly improved on the pirate storylines, after them being the worst parts by far of AFFC. It's also kind of presumptive to say GRRM doesn't know how to move the story forward, when clearly that was the Gordian Knot he was solving here...including setup for the last few books...which is a perfectly rational reason to take your time. The more whining I hear about this series (and this is not pointed at you, Ash, or even just folks on this board, since y'all are not remotely the worst offenders), the more glad I am that ADWD did not end with the big battles. I find it gleeful to have not given that to the self-important, entitled, incessantly complaining brats.

To each his own. I stand by my impression of the situation, and I certainly don’t think its okay to spend thousands of pages without really moving the story forward. That’s a pretty big sign the author doesn’t know where he is going.

Danny and Jon(and Tyrion too) have a pretty big amount of chapters in ADWD, so they naturally make a big impression on my overall opinion about ADWD. More than 1/3 of the book follows them, and the rest of the characters have mostly 2-3 chapters each, so the focus naturally falls on the three big povs.

I’m pretty sure he just pushed most of his Gordian knot to the next book, because there wasn’t much complexity to the end of the Mereen storyline, for an example only one outsider truly met Danny.

After having waited 11 years for the continuation of most of the storylines I do think I have a right to my opinion, and just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t make me anything negative, it just means I don’t agree with you. Don’t throw around "nametags" every time I say something that disagrees with your opinions.


If you are satisfied with the last two books then that’s good for you, I wish I was.

To be honest I just don’t care that much about this book series any more, I’m much more interested In Malazan and other authors work. ASOIAF hasn’t been good since ASOS for me, that’s 11 years ago. So I’m moving on from it, though the TV show keeps bringing me back regularly anyway, dammit :-)

This post has been edited by Asharak: 06 December 2012 - 09:26 AM

[Werthead]

Asharak, on 05 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

I think she/he meant that the Malazan books have clearly been planned out beforehand, unlike ASOIAF, and I certainly agree with that notion.

While obviously Erikson and Esslemont invent a bunch of stuff during the process of writing each installment, each book(with some exceptions) has a clear beginning, middle and end, each story having a climax, and each book having a clear identity of its own.

True, but that's not the same structure as ASoIaF, so the comparison doesn't really work on that basis. Also, whilst Erikson clearly had a structure in mind (he provided titles for all ten books before even MEMORIES OF ICE came out), an awful lot of stuff got worked out on the fly. That's particularly clear with all the timeline/structural issues that emerge late in the series.

Quote

I’m pretty sure he just pushed most of his Gordian knot to the next book, because there wasn’t much complexity to the end of the Mereen storyline, for an example only one outsider truly met Danny.

The Knot was getting people to Meereen and in what order. That's actually been done (Tyrion is there, if not having met Dany yet; Quentyn's already been and gone; Victarion is almost there and Marwyn is on his way), if not fully resolved in published materials. Certainly, apart from Marwyn, the material of them having all arrived and gotten involved in the battle has been written, just delayed to the next book.

[Asharak]

"True, but that's not the same structure as ASoIaF, so the comparison doesn't really work on that basis. Also, whilst Erikson clearly had a structure in mind (he provided titles for all ten books before even MEMORIES OF ICE came out), an awful lot of stuff got worked out on the fly. That's particularly clear with all the timeline/structural issues that emerge late in the series."



Yea, but if you look at each Malazan book there is a pretty clear skeleton/plan for each book. While Im not saying ASOIAF is exactly the same type of series, I do think GRRM would benefit grately from planning out his books in more detail, because the last two books felt to me like an aimless mess. He needs a good editor among other things.

This post has been edited by Asharak: 06 December 2012 - 09:51 AM

[worry]

How dare you accuse me of throwing around nametags?!?! I don't even know what that means!!

[Asharak]

Im just saying I can disagree with you without being pounty,presumptive, "self-important, entitled, incessantly complaining brats". I of course realise that your really speaking more about your frustration with a large group of the readers, and not me, but people can disagree with you without a flaw in their character being the reason.

I feel the need to say Im not a hater of the series, just wanted to say my opinion and continue reading "Blood and Bone".

This post has been edited by Asharak: 06 December 2012 - 12:16 PM

[worry]

Asharak, on 06 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Im just saying I can disagree with you without being pounty,presumptive, "self-important, entitled, incessantly complaining brats". I of course realise that your really speaking more about your frustration with a large group of the readers, and not me, but people can disagree with you without a flaw in their character being the reason.

Theoretically yes, I grant you this. And the American mainland's forests may actually be teeming with "Squatches", sure. There's just not convincing real world evidence for either of these cases to be confirmed.

[Werthead]

Quote

He needs a good editor among other things.

This is a bit of a lazy comment (though an extremely common one), to be honest. Readers seem to think that editors serve the same role as directors do on films, when in fact they are, at best, creative consultants. Editors can make suggestions to authors on how to improve their books, but authors are rarely under any legal obligation to listen (if the author ignores the publisher and the publisher as a result refuses to publish the book, the author can sue them for breach of contract). If a book is 'bad' or disappointing, the fault lies squarely with the author, not the editor.

In addition, GRRM has had the same editor throughout the entire series, for the good parts and the bad.

[polishgenius]

Werthead, on 07 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Quote

He needs a good editor among other things.

This is a bit of a lazy comment (though an extremely common one), to be honest. Readers seem to think that editors serve the same role as directors do on films, when in fact they are, at best, creative consultants. Editors can make suggestions to authors on how to improve their books, but authors are rarely under any legal obligation to listen (if the author ignores the publisher and the publisher as a result refuses to publish the book, the author can sue them for breach of contract). If a book is 'bad' or disappointing, the fault lies squarely with the author, not the editor.

In addition, GRRM has had the same editor throughout the entire series, for the good parts and the bad.

In fairness, I think when that phrase is used it's usually insinuating that the author should have availed themselves of the services of the editor more, rather than blaming the editor. And GRRM would hardly be the first writer to listen to his editor less as the series gained profile.

That said, I don't think a lack of editing by either himself or the publishers is Martin's problem, and I think no amount of editing could have rescued Dance from its problems, it's just an unfinished book.

[worry]

Yah, in the same way The Empire Strikes Back is an unfinished movie.

[Asharak]

Werthead, on 07 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Quote

He needs a good editor among other things.

This is a bit of a lazy comment (though an extremely common one), to be honest. Readers seem to think that editors serve the same role as directors do on films, when in fact they are, at best, creative consultants. Editors can make suggestions to authors on how to improve their books, but authors are rarely under any legal obligation to listen (if the author ignores the publisher and the publisher as a result refuses to publish the book, the author can sue them for breach of contract). If a book is 'bad' or disappointing, the fault lies squarely with the author, not the editor.

In addition, GRRM has had the same editor throughout the entire series, for the good parts and the bad.

Ok, GRRM together with his editor should have edited

down most of the chapters. There is so much blabbering in ADWD I found it really hard to read the book.

It’s not just that I felt the book didn’t deliver enough story, I didn’t enjoy reading it.

This post has been edited by Asharak: 08 December 2012 - 01:00 PM

[Overactive Imagination]

I liked Feast a lot.

ADWD was OK.. but I never really liked Dany that much in the first place so it kind of sucked having to read through so many of her chapters.

I still have some faith in GRRM though and it seems like ADWD set the stage for the next book which should have more badassness in it.

[Mikkelinski]

I liked Jamie in Feast, took little to no time for him to grow to be one of my favorite characters. I seem to hold the opinion of Asharak, that the story has bogged down and has gone next to nowhere over the course of the last two books (yes it has progressed but not to the extent I would have liked).

In a youtube video on Brandon Sanderson he specifies that GRRM is a "gardener" type writer - as in just writing without an outline. It wouldn't be at all hard to see how the series has become tough to progress if that is true, especially when his five year (was it 5? I think it was) jump didn't work out. Still, I wouldn't miss out on the rest of the series for the world, but the quality of the last two books has made the wait for the sequel a lot easier unlike how I felt waiting for the last few Malazan books.

worrywort, The Empire Strikes Back is a fully realized movie despite it's cliffhanger ending so I think the comparison is a poor one (but each to their own I suppose).

[worry]

I defy you to name seventeen fully realized aspects of that film.

[Mikkelinski]

Seventeen, that seemed arbitrary or is there a reason for the number (as in, you would say there are seventeen fully realized aspects in Dance)? Also, what would constitute one such aspect (if I were to guess, I'd say you'd define it in such a way that there is none in the movie at all)?

Anyway, it certainly progresses the story to a larger degree (in my opinion) than A Dance With Dragon does. This made me remember something actually, in the book I felt that more of significance happened in the epilogue with Varys than the rest of the book combined (again, I exaggerate I know). While the movie in question has a solid pace throughout the whole. Note that I am not touching on the content of the story which is very so - so but that I found the story told in a well-paced manner.

[worry]

You're the one who said fully realized, so you define it.

[Mikkelinski]

Now you're making me have to go watch it again damn it! Oh well, hopefully I can find what I think is there by delving into my memories and some fan-side synopsis of it, it's been years after all...

I'll be back!

[polishgenius]

Worrywort, I don't know if that's cruel but masterful, or masterful but cruel.

[worry]

He's no good to me dead.