[Grief]

In fact, that is definitely my preferred course of action.

I don't necessarily see it as an intrinsically good thing to test the claims. Chances are, the revealed players won't be sticking around too long either way - if they test then they'll be PI and if they don't they're a dangerous role to have around. So we don't necessarily gain much from just having them tested for the sake of PI in itself.

And as people have pointed out, we stand to lose a lot, potentially.

However, I don't really think the people saying we're risking losing lots have really thought it through. Yes, if the vigs are used randomly they could well be detrimental (as vigs often are), and this downside might outweigh the advantages of having the reveals tested.

If we use them as lynches though, this problem becomes negligible. If the vigs are used to kill people we would've lynched anyway, we are getting the same amount of information as if we lynched them but with less town deaths than we usually would have for the same information - because only the person vigged dies rather than the person lynched and then whoever dies at night.

[Grief]

Of course, that does rely on the vigs being happy to let the town choose.

[Silencer]

Grief, on 04 March 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Jump Around, on 03 March 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

So what, we vig two random people just to test them?

Like I said before, that's not an exchange I find too positive.

If we don't trust Silencer (of the two, he's the one whose reveal bugs me the most), then we ask him maybe to prove it, but both??

this
also, wcs, we DO have 2 independant killers, and we may lose both of our PIed players in the night. with a lynch, wcs, we could lose 5 town in one cycle. that's too much for slim risk of gain.

HD, Silencer, does your vig send day to night?

We could just treat the vigs like lynches? If the vigs are up for it, we vote for whoever we would like vigged, and then they vig them. We've got a good bit of time to do this, and essentially get train info from it.

That's a decent way to play it, if everyone is amenable. Though I guess you also have to consider that that does increase the likelihood of the scum influencing the outcome - train info, yes, but also a higher chance of being down lots of innos by tomorrow.

[Mentalist]

Grief, on 04 March 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Jump Around, on 03 March 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

So what, we vig two random people just to test them?

Like I said before, that's not an exchange I find too positive.

If we don't trust Silencer (of the two, he's the one whose reveal bugs me the most), then we ask him maybe to prove it, but both??

this
also, wcs, we DO have 2 independant killers, and we may lose both of our PIed players in the night. with a lynch, wcs, we could lose 5 town in one cycle. that's too much for slim risk of gain.

HD, Silencer, does your vig send day to night?

We could just treat the vigs like lynches? If the vigs are up for it, we vote for whoever we would like vigged, and then they vig them. We've got a good bit of time to do this, and essentially get train info from it.

that's not always the best plan, nevermind that it requires the vig's cooperation.
we had a similar situation last game, where i ended up being dictator for the day--meaning my vote was teh only one necessariy for a lynch and the other votes didn't matter. I asked people who they wanted to vote, but the two candidates that were given were both built on weak cases (and they revealed as paired town the next day). Instead, I lynched the person I felt was low-lying and made some scummy summary posts and a lazy vote. it turned out to be the chief symp/backup killer.

what i'm trying to say is, i'd prefer the vigs used their discretion, but tried to be constructive.

[Grief]

Mentalist, on 04 March 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Grief, on 04 March 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Jump Around, on 03 March 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

So what, we vig two random people just to test them?

Like I said before, that's not an exchange I find too positive.

If we don't trust Silencer (of the two, he's the one whose reveal bugs me the most), then we ask him maybe to prove it, but both??

this
also, wcs, we DO have 2 independant killers, and we may lose both of our PIed players in the night. with a lynch, wcs, we could lose 5 town in one cycle. that's too much for slim risk of gain.

HD, Silencer, does your vig send day to night?

We could just treat the vigs like lynches? If the vigs are up for it, we vote for whoever we would like vigged, and then they vig them. We've got a good bit of time to do this, and essentially get train info from it.

that's not always the best plan, nevermind that it requires the vig's cooperation.
we had a similar situation last game, where i ended up being dictator for the day--meaning my vote was teh only one necessariy for a lynch and the other votes didn't matter. I asked people who they wanted to vote, but the two candidates that were given were both built on weak cases (and they revealed as paired town the next day). Instead, I lynched the person I felt was low-lying and made some scummy summary posts and a lazy vote. it turned out to be the chief symp/backup killer.

what i'm trying to say is, i'd prefer the vigs used their discretion, but tried to be constructive.

Perhaps, but this relies on the vig being correct over the town. If the vig is right - great. But if the vig is wrong then it is worse than the town being wrong, because you get lots less info.

[Silencer]

Mentalist, on 04 March 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Grief, on 04 March 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Jump Around, on 03 March 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

So what, we vig two random people just to test them?

Like I said before, that's not an exchange I find too positive.

If we don't trust Silencer (of the two, he's the one whose reveal bugs me the most), then we ask him maybe to prove it, but both??

this
also, wcs, we DO have 2 independant killers, and we may lose both of our PIed players in the night. with a lynch, wcs, we could lose 5 town in one cycle. that's too much for slim risk of gain.

HD, Silencer, does your vig send day to night?

We could just treat the vigs like lynches? If the vigs are up for it, we vote for whoever we would like vigged, and then they vig them. We've got a good bit of time to do this, and essentially get train info from it.

that's not always the best plan, nevermind that it requires the vig's cooperation.
we had a similar situation last game, where i ended up being dictator for the day--meaning my vote was teh only one necessariy for a lynch and the other votes didn't matter. I asked people who they wanted to vote, but the two candidates that were given were both built on weak cases (and they revealed as paired town the next day). Instead, I lynched the person I felt was low-lying and made some scummy summary posts and a lazy vote. it turned out to be the chief symp/backup killer.

what i'm trying to say is, i'd prefer the vigs used their discretion, but tried to be constructive.

This, pretty much, is what I'm saying we have to be careful of in the substitute-for-lynch method. XD But yeah, it can swing either way. I guess in the end HD and I do have discretion even if we put it to a vote, neh?

[Grief]

Silencer, on 04 March 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

Grief, on 04 March 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Jump Around, on 03 March 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

So what, we vig two random people just to test them?

Like I said before, that's not an exchange I find too positive.

If we don't trust Silencer (of the two, he's the one whose reveal bugs me the most), then we ask him maybe to prove it, but both??

this
also, wcs, we DO have 2 independant killers, and we may lose both of our PIed players in the night. with a lynch, wcs, we could lose 5 town in one cycle. that's too much for slim risk of gain.

HD, Silencer, does your vig send day to night?

We could just treat the vigs like lynches? If the vigs are up for it, we vote for whoever we would like vigged, and then they vig them. We've got a good bit of time to do this, and essentially get train info from it.

That's a decent way to play it, if everyone is amenable. Though I guess you also have to consider that that does increase the likelihood of the scum influencing the outcome - train info, yes, but also a higher chance of being down lots of innos by tomorrow.

That is a point I hadn't really considered.

However, if they're the people the majority think are more scummy, we would quite possibly end up lynching them anyhow - which then leads to night and more deaths in the long term.

I'm also not sure how much greater the chances of hitting an inno are - and tbh don't think it outweighs the improved chances of hitting scum from two trains worth of info as opposed to two people the vigs happen to think are scum. If you're very certain of someone, and think scum are influencing people away from choosing them, maybe vig them, but if the vigs are wrong we're in a worse situation than if the town is wrong by a considerably amount imo.

[D'rek]

Thing is, if the vigs are scum, they will say they strongly don't agree and vig someone else. Probably make a semi-convincing case of it when they do, and plunge is into even greater WIFOM and lack of info.

[Mentalist]

D, on 04 March 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

Thing is, if the vigs are scum, they will say they strongly don't agree and vig someone else. Probably make a semi-convincing case of it when they do, and plunge is into even greater WIFOM and lack of info.

its kind of an inevitable risk and we've been running with it ever since we got the reveal.

I'd suggest every person lists the top 2 people they'd like to see vigged.

for myelf, my top suspect right now is Vengeance. I already spoke out about this several times, so i'll re-iterate quickly--he's been far less of a presence in the game than he usually is, and of all the players he'd best fit the label of a "coaster" at this point. I can understand his snide remarks abaout not reading pages of spam, though I don't agree, but aside from that, he's added nothing to the game.
my second choice atm is Obdi. this is more of a gut feeling.

[Silencer]

D, on 04 March 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

Thing is, if the vigs are scum, they will say they strongly don't agree and vig someone else. Probably make a semi-convincing case of it when they do, and plunge is into even greater WIFOM and lack of info.

Potentially. But if HD and I are scum, and manage to pull that off? Well, the rest of you were fucked from the start, lol. There's nothing to stop us treating this like a regular set of case-building opportunities, however, so if I have a candidate I feel strongly about I'll push like I would for a lynch. Is that really any different from scum playing on trains? In the end you'd still have info, and HD and/or I would be sitting out in the frikking open. O.o

[D'rek]

Fair point I suppose, it just adds another layer to the scum-hiding-in-town that we don't usually have to consider. I can imagine once there is a vig some cases are going to get very convoluted. But we're the veterans game, right, I'm sure there's some mistaken notion that we're supposed to be good at working with such things.

For Ment's idea, my 2 would be Bubba and Vengy. Both to me seem to be uncharacteristically laying low, posting far less than usual but all their posts act like they are doing no such thing.

[Path-Shaper]

not that something has changed...

It is Day 2. The clock has been frozen with 11 Hours and 07 Minutes remaining.

14 Players still alive: Bent, Bubba, D'rek, Dktorode, Grief, H.D., Jump Around, K0rbas, Macros, Mentalist, Obdigore, Silencer, Stalker, Vengeance

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Silencer ( Mentalist )
1 Vote for Vengeance ( Dktorode )
2 Votes for Dktorode ( Grief, Macros )

Players not voted: Bent, Bubba, D'rek, H.D., Jump Around, K0rbas, Obdigore, Silencer, Stalker, Vengeance

[Bent]

Ill be back tomorrow. Vigs vigging each other is the worst idea ever, if one is lying he cant vig, then we lynch him the following day. If neither are, they have 2 shots to hit scum, and if both are, we have 2 fake reveals worth lynching and since the vigs didnt work, we lose nothing. But vigs shooting each other is stupid.

[HoosierDaddy]

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Jump Around, on 03 March 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

So what, we vig two random people just to test them?

Like I said before, that's not an exchange I find too positive.

If we don't trust Silencer (of the two, he's the one whose reveal bugs me the most), then we ask him maybe to prove it, but both??

this
also, wcs, we DO have 2 independant killers, and we may lose both of our PIed players in the night. with a lynch, wcs, we could lose 5 town in one cycle. that's too much for slim risk of gain.

HD, Silencer, does your vig send day to night?

Don't know. I assume it doesn't. It just happens as soon as I determine to use it on somebody.

[bubba]

Do it

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[HoosierDaddy]

As for you all deciding who I vig.... I don't know. I see the logic behind treating it as a lynch. I'm definitely willing to consider anything put forward.

[Stalker]

there definitely is logic behind treating it a lynch, though perhaps it isn't necessary to use both vigs. I understand that using both would vpi both of you, but if both hit town, we are in trouble. I really doubt that town is stuck with only vigs for RIs, like I said it doesn't make sense. So assuming we have a healer, perhaps they would be willing to protect one of you. Personally, I'm much more inclined to accept HD's claim, and have silencer use his vig first.

I realize it is a risk trusting in a role that may not exist, but it seems better than the alternative of potentially losing 3 town members in the course of a single day, while having two potential town revealed in the same day. Not a good situation for us to be placed in.

[Silencer]

"Silencer has decided he is going to talk in the third person from now on, because you're all being so quiet." Silencer says with a hint of resignation.

[Silencer]

Stalker, on 04 March 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

there definitely is logic behind treating it a lynch, though perhaps it isn't necessary to use both vigs. I understand that using both would vpi both of you, but if both hit town, we are in trouble. I really doubt that town is stuck with only vigs for RIs, like I said it doesn't make sense. So assuming we have a healer, perhaps they would be willing to protect one of you. Personally, I'm much more inclined to accept HD's claim, and have silencer use his vig first.

I realize it is a risk trusting in a role that may not exist, but it seems better than the alternative of potentially losing 3 town members in the course of a single day, while having two potential town revealed in the same day. Not a good situation for us to be placed in.

"Silencer thinks that a healer is a long shot because the healer will have to guess between Silencer and HD even assuming the healer exists. Silencer is worried about his chances in this situation." Says Silencer as he looks imploringly at Stalker.

"Silencer also feels that if we're going to have two day-vigs and a healer in this game then Silencer and the others might as well assume there is also a cultist who can recruit all these wonderfully roled innocents." Silencer drawls a little sarcastically.

[Silencer]

Bent, on 04 March 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

Ill be back tomorrow. Vigs vigging each other is the worst idea ever, if one is lying he cant vig, then we lynch him the following day. If neither are, they have 2 shots to hit scum, and if both are, we have 2 fake reveals worth lynching and since the vigs didnt work, we lose nothing. But vigs shooting each other is stupid.

"And obviously you can always lynch Silencer or HD if they are proven to be lying through lack of a death." Says Silencer somewhat enthusiastically.