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The USA Politics Thread

#14861 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 28 February 2025 - 09:20 PM

 HoosierDaddy, on 28 February 2025 - 08:42 PM, said:

It's not Christian to wish ill on others. But I find it very damn hard to not hope they all get blown to hell by a bomb.

Old boy missing trump in Pennsylvania might be one of the greatest what ifs ever.


Might've just gotten us technocratically competent and comparatively subtle "lawful" evil (if Republicans could've still subbed in DeSantis) rather than (technocratically) incompetent brazen chaotic evil. On the bright side of the burgeoning garbage fire, it might be much easier for hypercompetent technocrats---AI-powered or otherwise---to seize power from discredited human democracy. Especially if much of government function is given over to tech companies, AI, and (if they have time enough) robotics.

Plus in a sense Trump's Making America Medieval Again (or MAMA):

Quote

Historian Jon Meacham [on] MSNBC[...]

"Take us back. Is this more like a Teddy Roosevelt imperialist approach? Is this William McKinley? Who does this remind you of [Trump's] world view when it comes to power politics?" asked MSNBC host [...]

[Meachem responded:] "It's older than that even, it's almost medieval and Renaissance… This is a royal house with a kingdom who bases relations on personal connection, personal feeling… and basically the transfer of assets. It's very autocratic, very straightforward. I mean, let's be honest. It's kind of, I don't want to say refreshing, but the president is being very clear here," Meacham said.

"So one of the things that I think is really important here is to remember that we are now living — to shift from a historical metaphor to a cultural one — we're now living in the Sopranos, right? This is a protection racket.

https://www.alternet...raine-zelensky/


OTOH some of the chaos is intentional---part of flooding the zone with frothing dicing shit, like an accelerating fast-forward projectile asshole slot machine---and Trump's apparent genuine derangement may make him more effective at it (if still less effective than someone hypercompetent simply feigning the same effectively).

Of course Putin iirc seized dictatorial power without these particular types of chaos (or appearance of disarray and confusion from the aspiring dictator's own spewage)... but Trump is partly following his model:

Quote

Trump didn't campaign on cutting cancer research and foreign aid any more than he did on threatening to annex Greenland and Canada or lifting sanctions on Putin's dictatorship and extorting Ukraine. What these things have in common is that they provoke conflicts with allies, which then allow him to distinguish the truly loyal.

[...] The Putin model [for transitioning from democratically elected leader to dictator is] to
Spoiler


The Putinization of America - The Atlantic


When I told my elderly mother that Republican congresspeople are afraid MAGA might kill them if they insist on voting against Trump, she asked why they're not afraid that people will kill them for voting as Trump and his ilk decree. I find it hard to imagine Democratic leadership promoting stochastic terrorism, death threats, and assassinations---not even via dog whistle and ironic plausible deniability. But consider the reaction of many on the internet to the assassin Luigi. Cutting Medicaid to constituents who need it to survive may be enough for more Luigis to leap up from the shithole garbage inferno... and then perhaps a very civil war (in the sense of civilians with lots of guns, explosives, poisons, and large vehicles) will start.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 28 February 2025 - 09:21 PM

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#14862 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 01:38 AM

 Macros, on 28 February 2025 - 07:37 PM, said:

Haven't watched it, but mates saying the trumping meet8ng was like watching a car crash


Trump was clearly under instructions from his BFF/master Putler to derail it in any way, as loudly as possible in order to create as much publicity as possible, and Trump (or Putler) told Vance to do the same or Vance just jumped in because he was so far up Trump's butthole. Putler must be having trouble breathing from laughing so hard - hopefully it kills him.

EDIT: seen Lindsay Graham's remarks? Another former neverTrumper who is now firmly parked between the orange buttcheeks.

 HoosierDaddy, on 28 February 2025 - 08:42 PM, said:

It’s not Christian to wish ill on others. But I find it very damn hard to not hope they all get blown to hell by a bomb. Old boy missing trump in Pennsylvania might be one of the greatest what ifs ever.


I'm not Christian so I'll wish ill on that orange turd for you. Hopefully it's a prolonged, humiliating, messy and extremely painful death.
Yeah, there's a reason that kid didn't make the high school shooting team unfortunately. :(
It's why 9 out of 10 times you go for centre of seen mass, but if you think the target may be wearing body armour you aim for the hollow at the base of the throat/top of the sternum. Less movement there if the target is looking around as well. 5.56mm is also a light round so wind may have had an effect but shouldn't have been much at that distance. Wondering if the shooter practiced that range, declination and with wind? Just saying.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 01 March 2025 - 02:58 AM

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#14863 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 02:22 AM

Zelensky would have done better with a translator, but unfortunately, the whole thing was bait and switch, given it happened live.


On the one hand, could Zelensky have been more restrained? probably.

On the other hand, seeing how unrestrained in their "big power politics" Trump and Vance are is unquestionably good for the rest of the civilized world. Will their gratitude get converted into actually rallying to support UA? that's the difficult question.


Vance is also effectively assassinating Rubio's last shreds of credibility here. All "traditional" foreign policy has basically gone out the window, and technically, it was on his watch.

This is the new diplomatic standard, by the way. In case the way they snubbed Kallas yesterday didn't make it clear enough. They expect the people to just shrug and accept it: this is how we talk to other countries now. Either they do something for us, or they get no respect.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#14864 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 05:45 AM

Who was the guy who jumped in asking if Zelenskýy owns a suit?

Statesmanship is on the risk of extinction list.
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#14865 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 06:12 AM

View PostMezla PigDog, on 01 March 2025 - 05:45 AM, said:

Who was the guy who jumped in asking if Zelenskýy owns a suit?

Statesmanship is on the risk of extinction list.

MTG's boyfriend.

Yes, I am serious.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#14866 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 06:30 AM

Oh that's so much worse than I expected. I assumed some MAGA senator or something.
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#14867 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 08:10 AM

It's just so depressing that this is where we're at, and people still won't see what they're doing.
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#14868 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 08:39 AM

Has anyone told Trump how close Russia is on his West Coast?
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#14869 User is online   Chance 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 09:20 AM

View PostMezla PigDog, on 01 March 2025 - 08:39 AM, said:

Has anyone told Trump how close Russia is on his West Coast?


Probably slanderous democratic propaganda?

Trump and his hardcore followers seem remarkably adept at denying facts when they don't align with their worldview.
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#14870 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 10:56 AM

View PostTsundoku, on 01 March 2025 - 01:38 AM, said:

Yeah, there's a reason that kid didn't make the high school shooting team unfortunately. :(
It's why 9 out of 10 times you go for centre of seen mass, but if you think the target may be wearing body armour you aim for the hollow at the base of the throat/top of the sternum. Less movement there if the target is looking around as well. 5.56mm is also a light round so wind may have had an effect but shouldn't have been much at that distance. Wondering if the shooter practiced that range, declination and with wind? Just saying.


Perhaps someone should make an ultra-realistic virtual reality simulation with a custom controller to simulate the tactile and kinetic aspects of the best guns for assassination. Though I'd imagine the Trump administration would try to ban it, especially if it simulates assassinating Trump or Putin (or more realistically: Republican congresspeople who might vote for major cuts to Medicaid and food assistance).

Picture it: Putin is riding shirtless on his horse (or on Trump's shoulders), in your crosshairs... should be a best seller.

Though IDK about the effect of wind blowing on one's eyes---perhaps wind simulation would also be needed. But a few fans should be fine for that.

OTOH there's a strong chance it would backfire, especially since Republican congresspeople right now seem much more worried about MAGA than about more Luigis. And US gun enthusiasts are disproportionately MAGA, and even more disproportionately right-wing in general. The guy who grazed Trump apparently just wanted to kill a famous politician.
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#14871 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 01 March 2025 - 10:32 PM

Opinion piece that is - if anything - putting it mildly:

‘It made me want to throw up’: Americans ‘sick’ over Donald Trump’s treatment of Volodymyr Zelensky
Donald Trump’s treatment of Volodymyr Zelensky in the Oval Office has left some Americans reeling.

https://www.news.com...3b1f108eb6d1ac5

Sam Clench March 2, 2025 - 8:41AM

Comment

Well. What to say about that? The most ignoble day in recent American history. It looks no more edifying 24 hours later.

Donald Trump and J.D. Vance, the American President and Vice President, teamed up to harangue Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelensky, in the Oval Office, for having the nerve to suggest that maybe, perhaps, possibly, one of the most notoriously dishonest and malicious actors in global politics should be approached with a degree of scepticism.

That was the catalyst for what happened at the White House yesterday. Mr Zelensky, clearly frustrated by Mr Trump’s credulity, when it comes to Vladimir Putin, sought to bring attention to the Russian dictator’s record of treachery. Of breaking agreements. Of lying.

Should he have done it in private, rather than in front of the cameras? Yeah, maybe. We can quibble about the manner in which he conveyed his point, in a foreign language he does not speak well, while being ganged up on in a room full of native speakers. But it’s a point Mr Zelensky could not have left Washington D.C. without making.

Not when Mr Trump has said, so recently and so often, that he trusts Putin’s word. That he genuinely thinks Russia will follow the terms of whatever peace agreement he might strike, presumably negotiated without Ukraine’s input, as though Putin has not flagrantly violated multiple such deals in the past.

The US President is, at the very, very, very, very best, being astonishingly naive here. And at the very least, Putin is treating him like a fool.

There’s a world of difference between seeking peace, a perfectly laudable goal, and actively taking Russia’s side in a war of conquest it started. Repeating its propaganda, and boosting its bogus complaints, and giving it the benefit of the doubt, and sucking up to its leader, while relentlessly chewing out and belittling its victim.

There’s also a reason spokespeople for essentially every country in the democratic world reiterated their support for Ukraine after the debacle. They can’t criticise Mr Trump directly without endangering their own interests, but they can get away with acknowledging basic reality, and doing it quite pointedly.

That basic reality shouldn’t need to be repeated, and yet, here we are: Putin invaded his neighbour in a war of expansion. He’s been repelled through a combination of aid, from the Western world, and the stubbornness of the Ukrainians themselves. Now he’s counting on the US to give him a peace deal he can spin as a victory.

America is completely isolated in its treatment of Mr Zelensky. Who shares the Trump stance on Ukraine? Russia, which celebrated yesterday’s events with its usual charm, calling Mr Zelensky an “insolent pig”. Belarus, where Putin’s puppet Lukashenko has ruled for decades. Maybe Viktor Orban’s government in Hungary, which is so popular among the alt-right Musk types despite, or perhaps because of, its eager curtailment of democratic institutions. And a handful of autocratic regimes beyond.

The part of the world we call free, including its conservative flank, is united, from Macron to Albanese to Boris Johnson, whose strong advocacy for Ukraine has continued since he left office. Trump’s America has morphed into the one exception.

Putin is supposedly going to visit the White House at some point in the near future. Will Mr Trump and Mr Vance speak to him with the same hostility they had for Mr Zelensky? The same naked contempt? Will they have the balls to call him out to his face, or will they be cowed, like Mr Trump was in Helsinki years ago? Watch. Take note. It should be instructive.

Will Don Jr, the President’s internet-drunk son of nearly 50 years, be mocking Putin on social media with juvenile memes, like someone a tenth of his age? You know damn well he won’t.

Why the hell wouldn’t you be running out of patience, as Mr Zelensky? Three years as a reluctant wartime president. Dodging assassination attempts. Treading water to survive against an invader with far more resources than you. Endlessly seeking aid from your allies, and endlessly thanking them for their sacrifice.

And then you travel to the self-described head of the free world, and its leaders lecture you for being ungrateful. And, no joke here, for being too “negative” about the guy who invaded your country, and has murdered thousands of your people, and overseen horrific war crimes against your civilians, and who’s still bombing them every day.

No demand that Putin stop that violence, by the way, as a precondition for negotiations. No criticism of it at all. Ukraine is the obstacle to peace here. That is the Trump position.

How would you react? Would you sit there in obsequious silence? Would you thank Mr Trump and Mr Vance, personally, for all the aid America gave when someone else was in charge, and when they opposed it?

Honestly. The sheer gall of J.D. Vance, to demand gratitude for aid money he tried to stop, and to feign offence when that gratitude was insufficiently grovelling. And on top of that, to be outraged – to call it “disrespectful”, even – when Mr Zelensky tried to protect his own country’s interests.

Try to imagine, for a moment, how Mr Trump and Mr Vance would react if some foreign aggressor – Mexico, maybe – took control of Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. And left their cities in ruins. Abducted 20,000 children. Claimed the US was not a real country and should have been part of Mexico all along.

You’ve heard how the President talks about a few thousand illegal immigrants crossing the border; he calls them “invaders”. Do you think he would react to an actual, real invasion by calling for peace, and for concessions not from the invader, but from the United States?

Would he publicly eviscerate the US military for defending its own territory? Would he call its leaders warmongers?

Listen to Mr Trump speak about Canada, or Greenland. He cannot seem to get it through his skull that other countries, not just the US, care about their sovereignty. A peace deal that doesn’t guarantee that sovereignty for Ukraine, or guarantee its protection from further Russian violence going forward, is worthless.

I’m making a genuine effort, here, to put this as charitably as possible, because believe me there are stronger words available: these people have ditched their moral compass. It’s not off target. It hasn’t gone haywire. It is gone. They’ve buried it in the ground somewhere, because that’s easier than consulting it, which would bring too much shame.

Look at Marco Rubio here. Secretary of State. A guy who understands the world far better than the man he’s working for. Look at his body language, during the Oval Office argument; he looks like a sheepish five-year-old watching his parents fight. He has sold his dignity for political advancement, and he knows it.

That word above, by the way, is the one that kept popping up yesterday. Shame. I’m not an American citizen, though I am probably pale enough to escape much notice from the Trumps and Vances and Stephen Millers of the world. If you burn instead of tanning you’re generally safe from the anti-immigrant brigade.

I digress. The point is, I did spend some formative years in the American Midwest. I care about that country. Its character and its honour matter to me. The goodness of its people, as lauded by every drawling, pandering, self-interested politician of my lifetime, actually does matter to me.

And even if you share none of those sentiments, the direction of its leadership in the world matters too, to all of us.

So the shift in tone now, among Mr Trump’s critics, has resonated in a really disheartening way. It isn’t anger, not at its core. It isn’t concern about policy, or the usual high-minded lecture about the state of the republic. No, what we have today is horror; a bunch of Americans saying they feel sick, and worse than that, ashamed of their own country.

Jonathan V. Last, editor of The Bulwark, put it most succinctly, but you heard his remarks echoed elsewhere as well.

“It made me want to throw up,” he said.

“The most shameful moment in American history of my lifetime, I think.

“That we are led by this man, who does all this in our names, is shameful. It makes me feel deep, deep shame to be an American. Because we own this. It does not matter how much we disagree with it, or how angry it makes us. We own this. And it’s horrible.”

It is horrible. How has the United States come to this? How has it become so predatory, and malicious, and disinterested in doing what’s right?

Sorry, so proudly predatory and malicious and disinterested in doing what’s right. The distinction there does matter.

The US has always made mistakes and failed to live up to its self-image. What we get from Mr Trump and Mr Vance is different; it’s a smug pride at the trashing of their own country’s moral standing, as though it should always have been a mercenary, and was a sucker because it didn’t sympathise with the bad guys sooner.

I think of the people I knew in Missouri – then a bit of a swing state, now deep red Republican – and wonder at their consent for this. They were deeply conservative, and deeply religious. More importantly they were kind, and hospitable, and fundamentally good.

Now many of those same people cheer this on. They cheerlead for the deliberate, mocking humiliation of a leader who has done his best, from a position of near-powerlessness, to fend off the aggression of a much greater foe.

Ask yourself: what has Donald Trump got, for all his bowing to Putin in the past fortnight? What concessions has he secured? None. He has won nothing. Nothing. He hasn’t even asked for anything. He has completely sold out a country fighting for its existence against a foreign invader, and in return he has secured, I repeat, nothing.

And he has the nerve to abuse Zelensky in the Oval Office. To patronise. Never even mind J.D. Vance, a man whose principles don’t extend beyond his nose, so finely attuned as it is to the chance to feature in a viral Elon Musk tweet.

These are small men running the United States, with an equally small vision of their country. You’ll meet a more impressive person than Vance when you go to shop at Woolies tomorrow. How dare he condescend to someone of Mr Zelensky’s substance.

It must be nice to have so little shame. The rest of us aren’t so lucky.
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#14872 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 02 March 2025 - 06:12 AM

Vance and co are boiling the frog that is the American public.

This is the new international discourse. One of global racket. If you don't have something they need (not want, need), then you have no leverage, b/c they are big and strong and you aren't.


They want this to be the norm. Because "that's how it's always been, we're just being honest about it".

Except, no. There used to be beliefs in principles and a semblance of basic honour and mutual respect, that made the "Free World" different. That made it something to look up to.

I'm not going to say that yesterday stunned me, that it was unexpected, and that it's inconceivable this happened. Because that's BS. And I've already expounded on what I think about how Zelensky talked, and what was said, and what was lost in translation, etc.
And I don't want to get into whether Trump is a GB asset or not. Because I don't think it matters that much whether he's meaningfully malicious or a misguided idiot.


But I will say, just as I do every time an arrogant autocrat makes a mistake, "I thought they'd be smarter than this". I said it in November of 2013, I said it in Spring of 2014, I said it in February of 2022, and I'll say it again.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#14873 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 02 March 2025 - 04:10 PM

Wifry is doing a course for work (pharmacy) and there is a lot of research and coursework to do.
In the last week a load of .gov sites relating to medical have gone offline

I assume this is to do with the orange goblin as well?
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#14874 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 03 March 2025 - 06:56 AM

I haven't read the thread yet but the interview/meeting with Zelensky must be embarrassing from an American point of view.

The clip about the suit is cringy.

It's like Trump and Co were siding with Putin.
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#14875 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 03 March 2025 - 08:41 AM

 Tattersail_, on 03 March 2025 - 06:56 AM, said:

I haven't read the thread yet but the interview/meeting with Zelensky must be embarrassing from an American point of view.

The clip about the suit is cringy.

It's like Trump and Co were siding with Putin.


Like? Nah, they're very much in cahoots with Putin.
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#14876 User is online   QuickTidal 

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Posted 03 March 2025 - 12:44 PM

 Mentalist, on 02 March 2025 - 06:12 AM, said:

And I don't want to get into whether Trump is a GB asset or not. Because I don't think it matters that much whether he's meaningfully malicious or a misguided idiot.


In point of fact it doesn't matter since what he's doing serves the Kremlin anyways. Is he a Russian Agent? Maybe, but even if he isn't every single thing he's done since first gaining office in 2016, through his time as a private citizen, and back into this second term has served Putin's desires....every...single...thing.


It looks like the world is moving away from the US now too, there was a photo of a large western leaders meeting yesterday to talk about Ukraine and the US was intentionally left off the guest list. Good. It's time we leave them in the dust as a global community. If every 4 years it's possible and even probable that you lot will elect a dictator and other madmen and oligarchs...you don't belong at the adults table with the rest of us.

I also appreciate that while King Charles isn't allowed to get political, that he nevertheless invited Zelensky (on the same day he impromptu arrived to meet with Starmer; unheard of) to his private residence at Sandringham (unheard of as it's not Buckinghma Palace where he does "business") after having cleared his diary (apparently also unheard of) for the day. That's about as big a FUCK YOU to Trump as the King can probably get and I'm here for it.
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#14877 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 03 March 2025 - 01:20 PM

 QuickTidal, on 03 March 2025 - 12:44 PM, said:

I also appreciate that while King Charles isn't allowed to get political, that he nevertheless invited Zelensky (on the same day he impromptu arrived to meet with Starmer; unheard of) to his private residence at Sandringham (unheard of as it's not Buckinghma Palace where he does "business") after having cleared his diary (apparently also unheard of) for the day. That's about as big a FUCK YOU to Trump as the King can probably get and I'm here for it.


As a Brit, I loved the sort of ever so polite two fingers that was.

Sure, you get your state visit, but I'm not clearing my diary for it and it'll be the same thing everyone else gets, not an informal private jaunt to Sandringham.
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#14878 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 03 March 2025 - 04:43 PM

Trump and his base take the outrage that he generates as an acknowledgement that he's doing the right thing. It's "proof" that he's "draining the swamp" and "shaking things up" and "providing the sort of leadership that America truly needs." Blah blah blah.

If the goal here was simply to step-back from America's entanglement in foreign alliances for isolationist purposes, to take the dollars that goes to overseas aid organizations and troop deployments, to use all of that to help the American PEOPLE, I can understand the mindset. I disagree with it to some degree, but understand the mindset.

However. And this is a BIG however. That money is going to line the pockets of zillionaires, not provide healthcare or an increase in the lower or middle class way of life. We are not isolating ourselves to concentrate on our own country's needs, but rather fear mongering and bullying to ADD to the "empire" with people who have a better quality of life than our own.

If I could leave I would. I'm tired boss. Tired of people who let themselves get taken advantage of because they hate more strongly than they love others or even themselves. Tired of caring about it. Tired of worrying about bringing kids into this world because I don't want them to have to deal with all this bullshit.

Just tired. And it's only March of year 1.

Someone should a fiddle for the rest of the country to play while it all burns down to gleeful soundbites and angry twitter posts.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#14879 User is online   QuickTidal 

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Posted 03 March 2025 - 05:43 PM

 HoosierDaddy, on 03 March 2025 - 04:43 PM, said:


Someone should a fiddle for the rest of the country to play while it all burns down to gleeful soundbites and angry twitter posts.


The Nero allusion here it more apt than you may realize.


As we talk about historical precedent that should prevent stuff like this, we tend to lean on WWII allegories (because frankly they are very apt and most recent)...but as a student ion history, the Ancient Roman one is even moreso when it comes to Nero:


Nero was a narcissist and an authoritarian who publicly mocked his opponents and frequently said completely unhinged shit.

Him ascending to emperor is a result of his wealthy mother killing his adoptive father (Claudius), and he slid into the role.

He enjoyed lavish displays of his own wealth, including gold-plated statues of himself and palaces.

He insisted he was a great athlete (he was not), and that he was desired and incredible looking (he was not...he was by any metric overweight and deeply ugly)...but when he participated in any sport he was proclaimed the winner even though he mostly lost.

He was infamous for his persecution of political opponents. He also blamed minorities, especially Christians, for the great fire in Rome.

He loved spectacles especially if they focused on the spotlight on him, and drained the coffers frequently for his own benefit, and used political branches of his govt to enrich himself further.

He was a master of Propaganda. Made up shit constantly to take any blame off him for anything. And many Romans bought it.

It should also be noted that he was credibly accused of sleeping with his mother, and while that's not exactly like Trump...Trump's comments about Ivanka are gross enough to be in that general incestuous orbit...



The similarities write themselves.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora

"Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone." ~Ursula Vernon
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#14880 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 03 March 2025 - 07:30 PM

Serious question HD, why can't you leave?
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