[Tavvar]

King Lear, on 05 May 2020 - 06:55 PM, said:

Tavvar, on 05 May 2020 - 06:37 PM, said:

This is why vote-by-mail is at least a good first step to expanding voting rights, it makes it easier to vote. (though everyone will have to have an up-to-date address on file with their State government). I don't really understand the fight against vote by mail (I mean, I do, but the arguments don't make sense), it increases turnout across the political spectrum, and it increases election security. A major concern right now is that electronic voting booths are hackable and/or leave no paper trail, its much easier to hack a voting machine than alter thousands of mail-in ballots. This may actually be a better version of voting that the electronic machines we've been turning to, or voting online: mail gives you a paper trail. It also gives you more time to research candidates (if you want to/have the time) when making your decisions.

Yeah that's what I mean by deliberate disenfranchisement. And (purely off my own personal observation, rather than any basis in data or anything) lots people who don't have barriers to voting are happy with the status quo because they think the people who aren't voting will vote for the party they don't vote for because they're poor and stupid. And that's independent of the party they identify with. I know people in various places in the world who don't vote for a variety of reasons, but I've never met people who actively try to discourage others from voting before. (I mean, I'm sure they exist, it just seems so normalised here.)

I think the voter suppression in the US boils down to the fact that increased turnout tends to lead to Democratic wins, while Republicans tend to win with lower turnout. We should want everyone to vote, if you can't appeal to a majority in the district/state/country, maybe you should reconsider what you're selling, rather than suppress the vote so you still win. The US has a long history of voter suppression, and my understanding is that much of that is tied to racial tensions in the country (Jim Crow to Civil Rights Act to the Supreme Court saying the CRA isn't needed anymore...) So I think some of the issue for people is that they don't want "those people" (the Other, changing based on who is saying it) to vote. I just want higher turnout, if the party I don't like wins with higher turnout, then that means more people wanted them, so be it. But we like to stop people from voting, then the Senate weights power to the less populous, rural states, and the Electoral College does the same, so even with high turnout the Republicans can win nationally because of how our voting system is set up.

[Garak]

But from what I understand of the US voting system, it's the vote from the Electoral College that matter. The popular vote doesn't mean anything? The US confuses me.

Also, why would people have a hard time reaching a voting station? We set up votes during the weekend and everyone has plenty of time to get in line and vote (less so those who are working abroad as the goverment always fucks them over, knowing they won't vote in their favor).

[Puck]

Because - and someone correctly if I'm wrong, please - America cannot manage to hold the voting on a weekend day OR make it a national holiday IF it's on a weekday, like most countries that hold elections. It has to be on a Tuesday and people have to take the day off work if they want to vote.

Why can't I shake the feeling that it's intentional?

[Terez]

Voting day doesn't really make much of a difference IMO. Most people can easily vote before or after work. The people who can't are people who live in places where there aren't enough polling stations to prevent long lines. And those are typically low-income neighborhoods, where people lucky enough to have jobs don't have the kind of jobs that give you federal holidays or weekends off.

[Mentalist]

Puck, on 06 May 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

Because - and someone correctly if I'm wrong, please - America cannot manage to hold the voting on a weekend day OR make it a national holiday IF it's on a weekday, like most countries that hold elections. It has to be on a Tuesday and people have to take the day off work if they want to vote.

Why can't I shake the feeling that it's intentional?

To be fair, Canada has its votes on Thursday. But the polls are open until 9 PM, so it's usually possible to go vote before/after work, depending on what shift you work.

[Puck]

I keep hearing of people having to wait for hours or so in line to vote in the US? Is that also the case in Canada? I'd think it'd be a bit better organized over there.

I'm going to have to admit that I am a total voting noob. I've never voted since I'm not eligible to do so where I live and don't feel qualified to vote even via mail in Ukraine after not having lived there for the past 20+ years.

[Malankazooie]

My state, Colorado, has mail in voting. We get the ballot about 30 days in advance of election day. You can fill it out right then and there when it comes in the mail and drop the completed ballot in the mailbox the next morning (a lot of people do that). Or you can wait until the day of election and drop it off at a collection box. This is my preference due to 'October Surprises'. Never know when skeletons come out of the closet right near go time. Didn't seem to hurt Trump though.

[amphibian]

Puck, on 06 May 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

I keep hearing of people having to wait for hours or so in line to vote in the US? Is that also the case in Canada? I'd think it'd be a bit better organized over there.

I'm going to have to admit that I am a total voting noob. I've never voted since I'm not eligible to do so where I live and don't feel qualified to vote even via mail in Ukraine after not having lived there for the past 20+ years.

The long lines (prior to COVID-19 pandemic) were mostly due to the lack of voting places in certain neighborhoods (almost all poorer, with a vastly higher population of minority people). The lines could be 11 hours long in some cases.

So if you look at it as "my vote is purposely discouraged by lack of access, inability to take time off from work in many situations, even if I do vote, things don't change that much because of gridlock and a lack of progressive politics turning into actual positive change for people", it makes a ton of sense why voting is something many people don't do.

Mail-in voting would probably change things considerably because a huge chunk of people would get around to it eventually - especially if given a month to do it in. I'd love to see that change happen - it'd make the gerrymandering and the vote discouraging (driven primarily by the racist GOP) less effective and lead to more positive change.

[Slow Ben]

amphibian, on 06 May 2020 - 09:53 PM, said:

Mail-in voting would probably change things considerably because a huge chunk of people would get around to it eventually - especially if given a month to do it in. I'd love to see that change happen - it'd make the gerrymandering and the vote discouraging (driven primarily by the racist GOP) less effective and lead to more positive change.

Which is why they're fighting so hard to stop it.

[Mentalist]

Puck, on 06 May 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

I keep hearing of people having to wait for hours or so in line to vote in the US? Is that also the case in Canada? I'd think it'd be a bit better organized over there.

I'm going to have to admit that I am a total voting noob. I've never voted since I'm not eligible to do so where I live and don't feel qualified to vote even via mail in Ukraine after not having lived there for the past 20+ years.

Most polling stations are in schools and rec centres. I've never heard of anyone having issues voting, tbh.

Edit: there's also early voting a week or 2 in advance on the weekends. Less polling stations though. Took my dad to one the last municipal election (he only voted because my former classmate was running for city council in our ward)

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 07 May 2020 - 05:34 AM

[D'rek]

Puck, on 06 May 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

I keep hearing of people having to wait for hours or so in line to vote in the US? Is that also the case in Canada? I'd think it'd be a bit better organized over there.

From what we keep hearing about the US system, yes the Canada one is much, much better. Even in very rural areas, the polling stations are less than 20 minutes drive away for 90% of the population, and roughly 1 station per 1000-2000 people. Plus they're open all day and all evening, and your employer is legally required to give you time to go vote if you wouldn't otherwise be able to.

[Slow Ben]

The Rule of Law is dead.

[Slow Ben]

Sorry. To clarify. The justice department is dropping charges against Flynn. Who plead guilty.

[QuickTidal]

Mentalist, on 07 May 2020 - 05:32 AM, said:

Puck, on 06 May 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

I keep hearing of people having to wait for hours or so in line to vote in the US? Is that also the case in Canada? I'd think it'd be a bit better organized over there.

I'm going to have to admit that I am a total voting noob. I've never voted since I'm not eligible to do so where I live and don't feel qualified to vote even via mail in Ukraine after not having lived there for the past 20+ years.

Most polling stations are in schools and rec centres. I've never heard of anyone having issues voting, tbh.

Edit: there's also early voting a week or 2 in advance on the weekends. Less polling stations though. Took my dad to one the last municipal election (he only voted because my former classmate was running for city council in our ward)

D, on 07 May 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

Puck, on 06 May 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

I keep hearing of people having to wait for hours or so in line to vote in the US? Is that also the case in Canada? I'd think it'd be a bit better organized over there.

From what we keep hearing about the US system, yes the Canada one is much, much better. Even in very rural areas, the polling stations are less than 20 minutes drive away for 90% of the population, and roughly 1 station per 1000-2000 people. Plus they're open all day and all evening, and your employer is legally required to give you time to go vote if you wouldn't otherwise be able to.

You also have to remember that we have a Federal body that oversees elections called Elections Canada (The Office of the Chief Electoral Officer) and everyone is on their registration through the CRA (taxes), so you get a slip in the mail about where to voter and when, early voting and absentee voting included. Canadian govt's WANT you to vote and they make damn sure it's as easy a it can be. And anyone not registered for whatever reason just needs to show ID and can vote.

So our system is WAY better than the US who can't even get states to agree on one system, let alone have anyone overseeing it for shenanigans.

We still don't have high enough voting numbers in each election, but at least everyone (for the most part) is given a fair chance to do so if they wish. No one can gerrymander or the like here that I know of.

[Terez]

Slow Ben, on 07 May 2020 - 08:32 PM, said:

Sorry. To clarify. The justice department is dropping charges against Flynn. Who plead guilty.

I wonder if he will even wait until after the election to pardon Manafort.

[Puck]

QuickTidal, on 07 May 2020 - 08:39 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 07 May 2020 - 05:32 AM, said:

Puck, on 06 May 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

I keep hearing of people having to wait for hours or so in line to vote in the US? Is that also the case in Canada? I'd think it'd be a bit better organized over there.

I'm going to have to admit that I am a total voting noob. I've never voted since I'm not eligible to do so where I live and don't feel qualified to vote even via mail in Ukraine after not having lived there for the past 20+ years.

Most polling stations are in schools and rec centres. I've never heard of anyone having issues voting, tbh.

Edit: there's also early voting a week or 2 in advance on the weekends. Less polling stations though. Took my dad to one the last municipal election (he only voted because my former classmate was running for city council in our ward)

D, on 07 May 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

Puck, on 06 May 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

I keep hearing of people having to wait for hours or so in line to vote in the US? Is that also the case in Canada? I'd think it'd be a bit better organized over there.

From what we keep hearing about the US system, yes the Canada one is much, much better. Even in very rural areas, the polling stations are less than 20 minutes drive away for 90% of the population, and roughly 1 station per 1000-2000 people. Plus they're open all day and all evening, and your employer is legally required to give you time to go vote if you wouldn't otherwise be able to.

You also have to remember that we have a Federal body that oversees elections called Elections Canada (The Office of the Chief Electoral Officer) and everyone is on their registration through the CRA (taxes), so you get a slip in the mail about where to voter and when, early voting and absentee voting included. Canadian govt's WANT you to vote and they make damn sure it's as easy a it can be. And anyone not registered for whatever reason just needs to show ID and can vote.

So our system is WAY better than the US who can't even get states to agree on one system, let alone have anyone overseeing it for shenanigans.

We still don't have high enough voting numbers in each election, but at least everyone (for the most part) is given a fair chance to do so if they wish. No one can gerrymander or the like here that I know of.

Thanks for the explanation, everyone!

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'She Said Anthony Fauci Sexually Assaulted Her. Now She Says Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman Paid Her to Lie.

After failing to frame Robert Mueller, Elizabeth Warren, and others for sexual misconduct, the infamous Trumpster hoaxers tried to go after Fauci. But the woman they hired to play the victim had second thoughts.

[...]

The deciding factor to get them on tape, however, was Wohl asking her to provide another girl.

[...] During the nine-minute, 35-second call, Wohl and Burkman do not cover themselves in glory. They hector Andrade when she says she's feeling paranoid and wants reassurance that everything's fine.

"What could be wrong, Diana?" Wohl asks. "You did a good job, you got paid. What's the problem? What seems to be the issue? You're freaking out. You're texting me late at night. What's the issue?"

"What's the problem? What's your problem?" echoes Burkman. "Tell me what the problem is? What's your problem?"

She says she's uncomfortable with the money they gave her, some guy showing up, claiming to be a lawyer, with his face hidden by a cap.

"Is he even a real lawyer?" she asks. "I looked him up."

"Yeah, he's a real lawyer," Wohl says. "He's a good lawyer," and then goes on to brag about that lawyer's White House connections.

It's possible that a White House–connected lawyer might have hand-delivered five figures in cash to Andrade in Los Angeles. It's also possible Wohl made up the whole thing. But she says she did get the money, and Wohl and Burkman are clearly eager to imply that they are intimate with Team Trump.

The cloaks and daggers might have been discomfiting, but ultimately were a distraction from what Andrade wanted on tape. She proposes she give back the cash and instead receive a wire transfer (thus creating a trace), a proposition Burkman shoots down. ("Cash is best," he tells her. "We don't want any records of this nonsense.") She wants the men to admit they are trying to bring down a person who in no part deserves it.

"Let me tell you something, Diana," says Burkman. "This guy shut the country down. He put 40 million people out of work. In a situation like that, you have to make up whatever you have to make up to stop that train and that's the way life works, OK? That's the way it goes."

Andrade counters that he and Wohl are not taking COVID-19 seriously. "It's not just any virus. I mean, it's a huge deal….I think you guys think it's something made up, and it's not."

"Mother Nature has to clean the barn every so often," Burkman counters. "How real is it? Who knows? So what if 1 percent of the population goes? So what if you lose 400,000 people? Two hundred thousand were elderly, the other 200,000 are the bottom of society. You got to clean out the barn. If it's real, it's a positive thing, for God's sake."

"So, what? Survival of the fittest?" Andrade asks, a bit more pique in her voice. (The sense you are dealing with people who have an enthusiasm for eugenics can do that.) But Wohl's not having it.

"Diana, look, can you just do this for me?" he says. "Can you just keep your mouth shut and just…just do it for me."

[...] telling Andrade she "readily volunteered" and asking who cares if she "made up a story. Grow up, for Christ's sake."'

https://reason.com/2...dAkwSSVKRQSeA4o

How are Wohl and Burkman not in prison yet?... Can the states prosecute them, assuming the DOJ won't?

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 07 May 2020 - 11:09 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Bill Barr Defends Michael Flynn Reversal: "History Is Written by the Winners"

[...] After denying he was doing Trump's bidding, Barr was asked how history would remember this move. "History is written by the winners, so it largely depends on who is writing the history," he said with a sly smile.'

https://www.thedaily...inners?ref=home

Examples of why that isn't generally true (provided history, as an attempt at a quasi-independent truth-seeking empirical discipline, isn't replaced by authoritarian propaganda; though history is primarily based on surviving written documents, and the 'winners' sometimes destroyed the documents of the losers or produced far more surviving documents of their own):

https://history.stac...-by-the-victors

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 08 May 2020 - 01:15 AM

[Malankazooie]

Caught that Barr piece on the news. The comfort and matter of fact way he says it with that little smirk. Pretty fucking chilling.

[Tavvar]

Someone noted it above, but one on the biggest problems in US elections is that how elections are run is not in the Constitution, so its left to the states. So we have 50 different types of elections, all with unique rules based on who the government wants to vote. There are a lot of tools that the governing party can do to change who votes (assigning pooling places, voter ID, who is on voter rolls, time polls are open, early voting, gerrymandering, etc). One of the worst cases recently is the 2018 Georgia governor's race: the Republican candidate was the Secretary of State who controls elections and he purged the voter rolls prior to the election, and I believe he cleared off more people than the final margin that he won by over Stacy Abrahms. Allowing the guy in charge of running elections run for office is insane.

This state-by-state system leads to a whole mess of elections. Some states have long voting hours, some are short. Some have lots of early and weekend voting, others don't. Some require voter ID, some don't, all allow different types of ID. On the bright side, Republicans can't suppress all votes nationally, but with the Electoral College and Senate, they don't need to. Gerrymandering is the worst way to make changes because it allows politicians to pick their voters. For example, last year I lived in Ohio, which is about 55/45 Republican/Democrat, but the state legislature is over 2/3 Republican. Both parties have and do gerrymander, but it got worse in 2010 when the Tea Party Wave swept Republicans into power across the country. They then used computers to very carefully draw districts lines to try and guarantee a majority (example: my district in Columbus, OH included my neighborhood in the Western part of the city and a huge swath of rural land to the South- so they took the Democratic voters in my area, and stuck them in a Republican district. Most of the Columbus districts are like this, huge rural districts that take a small piece of the city to dilute Democratic votes.

@Garak- Yes, the Electoral College determines the Presidential Election. It was developed by the Founders to put distance between the People and the election of the President. People were supposed to vote for an Elector (smart, well-respected guy in town) to vote for them. The Founders were trying to avoid this exact situation because they did not trust the population at large to make good decisions. But it's never really worked as intended. Now it breaks the election into a race in 12 states, while Republicans in California and New York, and Democrats in Texas have no say in who becomes President.

Hmm, that became an essay. I have a History/Poli Sci degree and was bored during a meeting....