[Malankazooie]

Politics is such a skeevy undertaking. I know that isn't a revelatory statement or anything, but if you want to watch something that will make the gorge rise in your throat search out the video of Kamala Harris endorsing Joe Biden for president.

[Malankazooie]

Big prize today - Michigan.

Any you politics wonky-meats thinking dorks got some tea to spill? Any early trends? Who gonna come out in the lead? I see Harris and Booker timed their endorsements to maximize the impact for Biden.

[Aptorian]

Yet another story of Biden getting angry with a voter when being asked a tough question, which results in him making a personal attack and/or threatening physical violence.

How has this not tanked his campaign yet? Why isn't every debate a confrontation about this behavior?

[Macros]

You have seen the behaviour that Trumpalump has been normalising for the last 5 years haven't you?

[Tiste Simeon]

Aptorian, on 10 March 2020 - 09:38 PM, said:

Yet another story of Biden getting angry with a voter when being asked a tough question, which results in him making a personal attack and/or threatening physical violence.

How has this not tanked his campaign yet? Why isn't every debate a confrontation about this behavior?

Because being an angry whiny man child gets you the presidency?

[Malankazooie]

There's a pattern now, but taken separately some might see it as Biden attempting to be a 'straight talking, no bs' politician. The altercation was with a group of Detroit auto workers asking about about taking their guns away.

The "shush, shush" from him would have put my meter into the red and I might have said something untoward back.

[Terez]

CNN reporter:

[Aptorian]

I'm curious. I keep hearing and reading that Bernie doesn't have black voter support. Why is this? He has a history of supporting civil rights. His policy would greatly help black communities. Meanwhile what is it that Biden offers in contrast? A memory of Obama? Is there some element I'm not aware of?

[Macros]

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[Macros]

Not posting to poo poo.

Curious, does this ring true?

[Terez]

Aptorian, on 11 March 2020 - 05:06 AM, said:

I'm curious. I keep hearing and reading that Bernie doesn't have black voter support. Why is this? He has a history of supporting civil rights. His policy would greatly help black communities. Meanwhile what is it that Biden offers in contrast? A memory of Obama? Is there some element I'm not aware of?

Vermont is a very white state so Bernie has always had to travel to be a civil rights activist, and he has never really been immersed in the unique problems of African-American communities. He doesn't have relationships with many African-American leaders, and the ones he does have relationships with are largely people who were already controversial in their own right when they joined his team. Black voters have been getting screwed for so long, they're very reluctant to trust outsiders, and say what you will about the Establishment of the Democratic Party, it's basically the only institution that has been there for them in any measurable way over the past few decades. When Bernie is gone, AOC will be his natural successor as figurehead, and we'll see if she has any better luck reshaping the Democratic Party.

Macros, on 11 March 2020 - 06:29 AM, said:

Curious, does this ring true?

Yes.

[Obdigore]

Aptorian, on 11 March 2020 - 05:06 AM, said:

I'm curious. I keep hearing and reading that Bernie doesn't have black voter support. Why is this? He has a history of supporting civil rights. His policy would greatly help black communities. Meanwhile what is it that Biden offers in contrast? A memory of Obama? Is there some element I'm not aware of?

There is a lot of generational 'change avoidance' in the black communities. I believe the phrase is 'know your white people'. The gist of it is that many black people (who don't vote as a bloc just like latinx or white people who asians or whoever) vote for the candidate they think will do the least damage to them. If they know this candidate, have seen them before, all the better. Essentially the Dem's get much of the black vote by default because they aren't actively trying to fuck over (or at least not quite so transparently) these communities like the GOP is.

Biden is 'lets be civil to each other, other than that, nothing will change'. So they aren't getting screwed any more than they already are.

Bernie is a dreamer, with plans to make things 'better', which, historically, have been at best hit or miss for black people, and often they are the ones that 'fall through the cracks' of social safety nets and stuff.

Its voting safe and picking the person who you think will harm you the least. It's sad that it has gotten to this point, but I can't say I blame voters who do this. I just wish this country could be better, be stronger, and treat its citizens as well as it treats its corporations.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 11 March 2020 - 12:51 PM

[Obdigore]

Macros, on 11 March 2020 - 06:29 AM, said:

Not posting to poo poo.

Curious, does this ring true?

Yes and No. I'd like to say it doesn't for me, but I guess we wouldn't know unless this actually happened. However there is absolutely a large amount of misogyny in the US. I still think Bernie is a better candidate, and I like his platform more than Warrens, but would Warren be cleaning up with Biden's voters if she were a man? I'd say probably.

[Kanese S's]

Obdigore, on 04 March 2020 - 03:22 PM, said:

Abyss, on 04 March 2020 - 03:02 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 March 2020 - 06:31 PM, said:

... we don't even see Sanders as that radical...up here in Canada, he would be a centrist/moderate, not even really a progressive leftist.

A significant chunk of his 'followers' are sliding all the way to radical. Canada context think Green Party feels with NDP proximity circa Jack Layton having an actual shot at PM. I spent some time reading their reactions to the Biden super tuesday victory and the level of rejection towards 'vote blue no matter who' is startling. I'm not surprised to see people spouting 'fuck the Dems if they steal the nom from Bernie i won't vote, let Trump win'.... that voice has always been out there. But the frequency and 'likes' suggests it's effectively a third voice that's 'democratic party' simply out of a lack of third option.

Biden cannot appeal to that voice. I'm not even sure Warren could (Bloomberg could if he were willing to offer then a million dollars each... what? he can afford it...).

I'm not sure I'd call them radical. I think they are sick of the late stage capitalism in the US. They want a candidate that will work to fix our fundamentally broken society and economy (as those two are inextricably tied together). Biden isn't doing that. His policies appear to be 'I'm an old white guy and I'm Obama's beard and I'll do whatever the DNC tells me to be'. He's the most average politician that's ever existed, and hes a creepy uncle.

Quite frankly, Biden can't appeal to the people who don't generally vote. Warren probably can't. It's obviously going to be a contested convention and the DNC is obviously going to give it to Joe on the strength of votes in the deep south, where the Democratic candidate won't win a state, and will continue to lose all those 'purple' states. Biden doesn't have a good message beyond 'I can work with fascists, no problems'.

It's not even just people deciding whether to vote or not.

How long do you see people standing in line to vote for Biden before giving up and going home? Especially in november. How many people do you see taking off work to make sure they can vote if Biden is the nominee? Like you mention there are people who always vote and vote blue no matter who. But when it's difficult to vote, I think enthusiasm matters a lot for turnout. People aren't going to be excited for a holding action, which is what Biden represents.

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

Also did we or did we not go through the whole 'Bernie or bust' thing in 2016 and then it came out months later that it was primarily influenced by botting? Are we really just going to uncritically repeat exactly what happened in 2016?

(The answer is yes, yes we are.)

I'm certainly not looking forward to voting for Biden in November. I have said in the past though that I'd vote for damn near anyone against Trump.

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:30 PM, said:

What are Biden's chances of beating Trump? Do people think he can?

I don't think he can. I don't think he can build enough enthusiasm to defeat him.

A lot of people think that you win elections by swaying moderates, but I don't think that's been true for some time now. The Republicans didn't win control of the entire government in 2016 by trying to be reasonable and moderate. Elections are decided by who has the better get-out-the-vote machine. And I really don't think that Biden would be better at getting out the vote than Sanders would.

Obdigore, on 04 March 2020 - 03:33 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:30 PM, said:

What are Biden's chances of beating Trump? Do people think he can?

Biden doesn't inspire anyone. There's a large group that will vote blue, no matter who, but Biden certainly isn't going to turn anyone out who isn't already planning to vote against Trump.

I personally don't think he has a shot in hell, especially since Biden certainly seems to be fading mentally. While he does have a stutter, and has for years, when he calls his sister his wife and says he's running for senate, those are alarm bells for me for his mental health, and you can be sure the GOP political machine is going to pick up on that.

Exactly. The older folks will vote because they always do, and they have the time off to do it.

Biden isn't going to get the young and the poor to take the risk of ditching work to go vote. I don't think he's going to motivate people to wait for hours in the cold to vote for him.

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

Nah incrementalism is bullshit. It was the same liberal argument under Apartheid and it achieves nothing except maintaining existing power structures until something snaps. And in the US if something snaps it's going to snap hard. You don't have the infrastructure to cope with widespread anything: disaster, riots, illness, whatever.

Agreed. With the outbreak of the pandemic here, this post is proving prophetic.

Also with incrementalism you have to keep refighting all the fights you already had. People fought for and won, at great cost, many worker, consumer, and environmental protections that have in the decades since been eroded, undermined, and whittled down to the point where now we have to fight for the exact same things all over again. This is a big part of what's driving the radicalization of young people, I think.

Obdigore, on 04 March 2020 - 04:00 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 04 March 2020 - 03:50 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why would people assume that if Warren is gone those votes would automatically go to Bernie?.

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

You assume incorrectly. Approximately half her supporters would switch to Biden, so it's still not enough for Bernie to win.

Then those people aren't actually wanting her for policy/platform, and they are stupid.

Here is the thing I like Warren and think that she would make a brilliant President. She isn't going to win. I am pissed that Bernie was a little bitch in 2016 and didn't support Hillary more when she won. It is because of of him and his fanatical only vote for him or don't vote supporters that we have had 4 years of Trump. Bernie does not have a good history of working with anyone to actually get anything real done. To actually succeed in politics you have to be able to make deals. Bernie is an ideological purist. Which does not make for someone who is willing to negotiate. I will vote for the whom ever the nominee is, but I will not vote for the Man who felt that he could not fully Support a Women who beat him in the Primary, in the current primary. Frankly I would rather have Biden in for a term with a solid women VP then Bernie. Because Bernie will never have a congress or Senate that will allow him to convert this country to a Norwegian model. Incremental steps not flash movements are what works. Flash movements would put millions out of work and cause a massive backlash the next election. I want to never see any Trumpion in power ever again.

We gotta have a chat.

Most of the 'bernie or bust' are fucking bot farms, trying to put cracks into our democratic institutions. I'd also say that Bernie refuses to compromise his values, in the same way that the new strain of GOP people refuse to compromise theirs. Remember what happened with the ACA? When the democrats, under Obama, compromised and compromised, got to a point that the GOP said they'd vote for it, and then they didn't?

The GOP won't compromise, and so the Overton window in the US slides further and further to the right as the democrats continue to compromise. A continuation of that certainly isn't the solution. 'Return to normal' is a return to the environment let the GOP create the environment to allow Trump, and it will just get worse if we don't fix the fundamental failures in our society. Biden isn't doing that. He's just going to let the GOP do whatever they want in the name of 'negotiation'.

A return to 'normal', even if Biden wins, is the surest way to get a 'Trump' in power again.

PS, I like Warren, and shes absolutely my second choice after Bernie, but only because the others are so trash.

Edit - because 'wins' is a different word when it has a d in it.

Exactly. Even if Biden somehow won (which I don't think would happen), he wouldn't shift the Overton Window at all. He would just hold it in place and essentially kick the problems down the road four years.The Democratic Party establishment refuses to understand that Trump is not an isolated aberration and that the Republicans won't "go back to normal" after him. Republican intransigence and extremism predates and created Trump. They are not going to suddenly be willing to compromise and work together when he's gone. The establishment has not learned from eight years of the Republicans refusing to work with us at all for even modest legislation. There is no reason to try to compromise with them or appeal to them.

Terez, on 11 March 2020 - 02:02 AM, said:

CNN reporter:

All the more reason not to vote for him.

[Abyss]

All of which leads to the curious validity of the theory that the US isn't divided... it's broken.

It broke when a substantial chunk of its population were so massively disgusted by an educated Black man becoming president that they effectively radicalized the right wing. It broke further when that chunk elected Donald reality tv-bankrupt again-hello Putin-grab them by the pussy Trump as president and sent another chunk all the way over to radical left wing.

I don't see Biden, Sanders, or four more years of Trump fixing this. I'm not sure it can be fixed.

[Kanese S's]

Abyss, on 11 March 2020 - 07:35 PM, said:

All of which leads to the curious validity of the theory that the US isn't divided... it's broken.

It broke when a substantial chunk of its population were so massively disgusted by an educated Black man becoming president that they effectively radicalized the right wing. It broke further when that chunk elected Donald reality tv-bankrupt again-hello Putin-grab them by the pussy Trump as president and sent another chunk all the way over to radical left wing.

I don't see Biden, Sanders, or four more years of Trump fixing this. I'm not sure it can be fixed.

As one of those radical leftists... I actually agree. I don't think it can be fixed. At least not within the American government system as we know it.

[Abyss]

Kanese S, on 11 March 2020 - 08:31 PM, said:

...not within the American government system as we know it.

Raising the question of what changes a system like that?

Nothing fast I suspect. It would take the rise of a third, and possibly fourth, major political party, branching off from the existing two and having enough time and resources to build to be a valid power. And consider... if all of Sander's 'followers' broke from the Dems and formed a new third party, big enough to be recognized but initially not big enough to challenge the unbroken Republicans. Cue 8 - 16 years of unchallenged Rep governments, at which point the Sanders' party either breaks and folds back into the Dems (likely), grows big enough to absorb the Dems (unlikely), or grows big enough of its own accord to challenge the Republicans (massively unlikely). The reverse, where the Republicans split the same way, is even less likely, but, ironically, given the mass of support for Trump and its Tea Party origins, would have a better shot and becoming a valid third party in American politics.

Point being none of that happens fast, clean, or with a great chance of success.

Other option... secession... States, alone or in groups, break from the US and go their own way. Certain Canadian provinces like to throw this option around every now and then, more or less proving it cannot work.

Smaller poorer countries have basically shifted their entire system of government by way of revolution, bloody or just really loud, but then when you have little or nothing there is little risk to just shifting to something else... worse case things remain just as shite. America is entirely too big and too entrenched for that to work (for which we should all be grateful, because nukes). The USSR was made up of countries (not states) forced together within in a few decades... there were enough remaining institutions and memory to recreate each country as dissolution happened. I doubt many States have that ability... some certainly, I'd bet on California, Texas, maybe New York, but not most.

To my mind it makes more sense to stay within the existing system and make it work, rather than rely on a long term long shot that cannot, under a best case scenario, make anything better for more or less a generation. 'Argh everything is broken fuckit i'm not voting for just anyone who isn't Trump' is short sighted.

[Malankazooie]

Trump is a liar.

That's stating the obvious, I know. These past four years he has lied time and time again with the ease and comfort of a bona fide sociopath. But outright lying to the american public like he has (and will continue to lie) during this pandemic should convince any Trump supporter that he is unfit to be president.

[Terez]

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 12 March 2020 - 04:10 PM, said:

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If Pence has it, the guy in charge of fighting the virus will have the virus, as will his team.