[Terez]

Cause, on 12 August 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

http://projects.five...?ex_cid=rrpromo

This seems like an awesome website.

538 is a must-follow during election seasons. They got famous in the 2008 election for predicting every senate election correctly (except maybe one? I forget; I think they were perfect in 2008 and missed Heidi Heitkamp in 2012).

Cause, on 12 August 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

What happened on july 12?

This graph really seems to me to lend credence to the idea that the media manipulated the news to make the race seem closer than it was at first to sell news

That's around the time that Trump's VP pick leaked. Then there was the Republican convention, which was an absolute disaster for Trump.

I dunno if it's media manipulation. I think you had the Republican establishment and most GOP voters getting reluctantly on board at first thinking their prime directive was to stop Hillary. Then many started realizing that Trump really was worse than Hillary. That's when Gary Johnson's support started to rise, though you can't tell by looking at that first graph, which is a graph of each candidate's chances of winning, rather than a graph of their poll standings. It's kind of meta.

[worry]

This thread has become a lot slower since Trump started imploding. I just wanted to chime in to say it seems to me he's preparing himself not just for loss, but also for returning to his original plan: fleecing the gullible. While the fringe may be less fringey in the GOP than beltway folks thought, it's not gonna be enough to get him the win. But as Sarah Palin, Ben Carson, the prosperity gospel industry, the NRA, and right wing media all know, they're a big enough group to get rich off of. I don't think it's a coincidence that Trump's anti-establishment rhetoric has pivoted so readily into Alex Jones/Roger Stone level paranoia-baiting. Or that he's now hiring several Breitbart employees to join his campaign staff. Or that he's disavowing himself of the US intelligence community (http://talkingpoints...gence-officials). He is establishing future revenue lines.

[Terez]

This came in the mail today:

http://www.newyorker...tory-2016-08-22

Spoiler

I actually unsubscribed to the New Yorker a long time ago—I just did a 12-week $12 subscription to get an article in their archives—but they keep sending them to me.

[Silencer]

Briar King, on 18 August 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

I haven't had the stomach to bother watching coverage for over 2 weeks now cause I know what's coming and it makes me fucking sick.

Well, at least you know what the rest of the world feels at the very concept of Trump even being an option. Just sit back and relax, and realize that this is the better of the two options for you, your country, and the world.

[worry]

It's worth remembering, even if you think Clinton is the height of cynical politics, that Trump believes:

a) That California isn't undergoing a drought: http://www.usatoday....ought/85082174/

and

That climate change is a hoax (perpetrated by the Chinese, he sometimes adds): http://www.motherjon...mperature-chart

That alone disqualifies him from the job and should make everyone on Earth feel relieved he's gonna lose.

The choice isn't between establishment vs. anti-establishment so much as "Eh, life goes on" vs. "...Or maybe it doesn't??"

[worry]

P.S. I will never in my life remember that a B option leads to the shades smiley.

[worry]

Now here's something: Trump Tower jacked up the rent by nearly 400% for the Trump Campaign HQ once outside donors started paying for it. In other words, he's putting the fun in funneling.

http://www.huffingto...o9ix30du10s5rk9

[Macros]

Surely there has to be some kind of regulation on this type of gouging.

[Tsundoku]

Macros, on 23 August 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

Surely there has to be some kind of regulation on this type of gouging.

Regulation? Of Big Business? In America? Boy, you sound like a liberal communist.

Next thing you'll expect them to have learned the lessons of the GFC and put measures in place to avert or vastly reduce the chances of such a thing happening again ...

This post has been edited by Captain Needa: 23 August 2016 - 07:34 AM

[Macros]

I just dont get how Americans havent had enough of their political pantomime.
Rise up! rise up!

How can someone work as the treasurer type person, change some laws then go work for a bank, rake in millions and not be fucking slapped in jail for insder dodgy as fuck tradings?

rise up rise up!!

[Terez]

Macros, on 23 August 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

I just dont get how Americans havent had enough of their political pantomime.
Rise up! rise up!

How can someone work as the treasurer type person, change some laws then go work for a bank, rake in millions and not be fucking slapped in jail for insder dodgy as fuck tradings?

Because there's always some political pragmatist ready to explain to you how none of this is actually dodgy and we're all simpleminded idiots who don't actually understand how this stuff works. (Look at the response OWS got.) And then, of course, there's the right wing establishment which would have us believe that the real problem is "the government" (not the individuals of which it is comprised), or racial minorities, or whatever.

PS: I don't go to the Inn but it occurs to me to wonder whether BK is suffering from this flood business. BR and Lafayette are fucked. The house I used to live in got flooded. Glad I wasn't in it, but been there, done that with Katrina in Gulfport, so...

This post has been edited by Terez: 23 August 2016 - 07:59 AM

[amphibian]

Regarding BK and the floods, no.

[Nevyn]

Terez, on 23 August 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Macros, on 23 August 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

I just dont get how Americans havent had enough of their political pantomime.
Rise up! rise up!

How can someone work as the treasurer type person, change some laws then go work for a bank, rake in millions and not be fucking slapped in jail for insder dodgy as fuck tradings?

Because there's always some political pragmatist ready to explain to you how none of this is actually dodgy and we're all simpleminded idiots who don't actually understand how this stuff works. (Look at the response OWS got.) And then, of course, there's the right wing establishment which would have us believe that the real problem is "the government" (not the individuals of which it is comprised), or racial minorities, or whatever.

PS: I don't go to the Inn but it occurs to me to wonder whether BK is suffering from this flood business. BR and Lafayette are fucked. The house I used to live in got flooded. Glad I wasn't in it, but been there, done that with Katrina in Gulfport, so...

OWS is a bad example to give. It was doomed to a poor response because it was an ill conceived and poorly executed movement.

[Malankazooie]

Prescient.

[Terez]

Secret Startaker, on 23 August 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Terez, on 23 August 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Macros, on 23 August 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

I just dont get how Americans havent had enough of their political pantomime.
Rise up! rise up!

How can someone work as the treasurer type person, change some laws then go work for a bank, rake in millions and not be fucking slapped in jail for insder dodgy as fuck tradings?

Because there's always some political pragmatist ready to explain to you how none of this is actually dodgy and we're all simpleminded idiots who don't actually understand how this stuff works. (Look at the response OWS got.) And then, of course, there's the right wing establishment which would have us believe that the real problem is "the government" (not the individuals of which it is comprised), or racial minorities, or whatever.

OWS is a bad example to give. It was doomed to a poor response because it was an ill conceived and poorly executed movement.

Movements always are. That's the thing. You could bring up the 60s civil rights movements, but even those are seen through nostalgic rose-colored glasses, and through the prism of an imperfect man who was raised almost to godhood after he was assassinated. These days we're a bit more wary of cults of personality.

Briar King, on 23 August 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

Terez, on 23 August 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

PS: I don't go to the Inn but it occurs to me to wonder whether BK is suffering from this flood business. BR and Lafayette are fucked. The house I used to live in got flooded. Glad I wasn't in it, but been there, done that with Katrina in Gulfport, so...

All good here on floods. Massive amounts of rain 5 days in row kept us indoors. The flooding stopped about 15-17 miles to the east.

Good to hear, for you anyway. It's hard to even imagine what BR looks like right now. It's so weird, since BR was refugee city after Katrina, to think of it getting flooded exactly like NO did. Except (from what I can find out) none of the BR flooding came directly from the MS river.

[Nevyn]

Terez, on 23 August 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

Movements always are. That's the thing. You could bring up the 60s civil rights movements, but even those are seen through nostalgic rose-colored glasses, and through the prism of an imperfect man who was raised almost to godhood after he was assassinated. These days we're a bit more wary of cults of personality.

OWS was a cult of non personality. And non goal. Say what you will about movements of the past, but people generally understood what the goal was, and who the leaders were (imperfect or not).

It was so poorly executed that it ended up subverting its own goals. Say what you want about the civil rights movement, but they didn't actually set civil rights back.

[Terez]

Everyone understood that the overarching goal of OWS was to get money out of politics. People just preferred to marginalize the movement by pretending that it had no goals because it was a deliberately leaderless movement. Its long-term effects are still seen today, hence Bernie's candidacy and Hillary's attempts to move her rhetoric to the left.

There were plenty of people arguing in the 60s that the civil rights protests were actually setting the cause back. But again, the rose-colored glasses. That was a movement that took decades to bring its goals to fruition.

[Nevyn]

Terez, on 23 August 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

Everyone understood that the overarching goal of OWS was to get money out of politics. People just preferred to marginalize the movement by pretending that it had no goals because it was a deliberately leaderless movement. Its long-term effects are still seen today, hence Bernie's candidacy and Hillary's attempts to move her rhetoric to the left.

No, I assure you that nowhere near everyone understood that. And even among those who did, they had no idea HOW.

The movement marginalized itself. No plot was required to undermine them. They had their bright moment in the spotlight before they had figured up what to say, how to say it, or who would say it. As for being deliberately leaderless, just because it is deliberate does not mean it is not stupid. It capped a movement that claimed to represent 99% of the population by limiting their outreach and messaging. It left them devoid of planning. Movements need focus. If you are going to be so audacious as to claim to speak for all but the wealthy, first you need to speak TO them.

The media, and social media, and word of mouth are all by nature reductionist. You have a small window to communicate what you are about before opinion hardens. They could have occupied wall street for a day, left, and organized, and then picked their moments and their fights and their spokespeople. They could have made it crystal clear what they were about, and picked moments and causes that would highlight the problem for the masses. They burned through days of coverage without a single voice articulating clearly what they were about, and as a result a huge portion of the 99% they were hoping to speak for tuned them out.

If you want to start out leaderless and organic and big tent that is great. That is an excellent time to make contacts, then go away and get your ish together.

And saying that the Bernie candidacy is a result of this is a massive oversell. And any challenger left of Hillary would have moved her messaging left, that's how primaries work. The biggest factors Bernie had going for him were status as an outsider and being willing to run while not being named Hillary.

[Terez]

Hardly anyone had heard of Bernie before OWS; he was one of the beneficiaries of the movement, along with Elizabeth Warren and a few others. The push for them to run for president came from people who were involved in that movement.

Quote

No, I assure you that nowhere near everyone understood that.

No, I assure you everyone understood it. It was very obvious. People just liked to pretend not to understand it because it's easier to disdain a movement than it is to get involved in one. OWS was made up of thousands of people. When you speak of "them" needing to get their shit together, who are you really speaking of? No one knows. That's how movements work; they reflect widespread dissatisfaction and broad grievances.

[Nevyn]

Really? You assure me that everyone understood it? On what authority are you claiming to know the mind of every person in the world.

If I did a poll I wouldn't find that some people thought the overarching goal was addressing income inequality?
That some thought the goal was prosecution of bankers responsible for the financial crisis?

I bet you could find people IN occupy wall Street that would not agree that that was the overarching goal.

And with most movements you can identify a they. That you cannot with ows is the very problem. No one to talk to. No one to negotiate with. No one to coordinate the message.

This post has been edited by Secret Startaker: 24 August 2016 - 12:44 AM