[worry]

People don't talk enough about their ideals.

[Slow Ben]

Nicodimas, on 11 July 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

As a note I don’t mind it. The hostility means I’m getting through.

It really doesn’t. I know you won’t believe me, but it’s important you hear this. That’s not what it means, at all.

[Gorefest]

Nicodimas, on 11 July 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

Usually when people get defensive it means it bothers apart of them. Always been that way with folks. Next time you get defensive look inwardly on why it's invoking these emotions and how you should control them. If anything sets you off that bad —you always gotta wonder why? There's a reason and I am listening..

I think you are mixing up irritation with defensiveness. You are not actually engaging in discussions most of the time in this thread or others. Instead, you come into a conversation with at best mildly related subject matter that you offer up through web links and third party opinions instead of personal input, opinions which are often obtained from highly questionable sources or being a rehash of something that has been extensively rebutted several times previously. And then you just sit back and watch the reactions unfold. In actual fact you have been asked multiple times by various users to clarify your points or to engage in a constructive debate, but you hardly ever do so. That is not having a discussion, that is bordering on trolling.

Quote

What some asked for here was just a political safe space, which I find it ironic.. of all places. For you to advance the discussion you gotta keep talking. Maybe y'all are placing me under hued glasses lately and not getting it. I'll keep trying to make through to you. Someone who thinks differently doesn't deserve violent acts against them.. or mocked.. or called names. Understanding comes from the heart— it's how civility formed.

In actual fact, I think a lot of users are very interested in getting an alternative viewpoint. You cannot discuss subjects constructively in a frictionless vacuum. The problem is that you are not often providing an alternative viewpoint, but mostly empty soundbites from third party sources without any actual meat behind them when questioned. You cannot just throw some poorly thought through and highly biased/inflammatory opinions out there and then claim that when people question you on it that you are trying to open their minds. That is like setting someone's house on fire and then claiming that you did it in their best interest because now they know that they should buy a sprinkler system. There is no causal relation or sensible substance to it. so at the very least it would be worth practicing what you (claim to) preach and consider why you are being perceived by others to be inflammatory and contradictory instead of being a valued discussion partner.

[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 11 July 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

I think you are mixing up irritation with defensiveness. You are not actually engaging in discussions most of the time in this thread or others. Instead, you come into a conversation with at best mildly related subject matter that you offer up through web links and third party opinions instead of personal input, opinions which are often obtained from highly questionable sources or being a rehash of something that has been extensively rebutted several times previously. And then you just sit back and watch the reactions unfold. In actual fact you have been asked multiple times by various users to clarify your points or to engage in a constructive debate, but you hardly ever do so. That is not having a discussion, that is bordering on trolling.

^^This is spot on.

[Silencer]

Gorefest, on 11 July 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

Nicodimas, on 11 July 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

Usually when people get defensive it means it bothers apart of them. Always been that way with folks. Next time you get defensive look inwardly on why it's invoking these emotions and how you should control them. If anything sets you off that bad —you always gotta wonder why? There's a reason and I am listening..

I think you are mixing up irritation with defensiveness. You are not actually engaging in discussions most of the time in this thread or others. Instead, you come into a conversation with at best mildly related subject matter that you offer up through web links and third party opinions instead of personal input, opinions which are often obtained from highly questionable sources or being a rehash of something that has been extensively rebutted several times previously. And then you just sit back and watch the reactions unfold. In actual fact you have been asked multiple times by various users to clarify your points or to engage in a constructive debate, but you hardly ever do so. That is not having a discussion, that is bordering on trolling.

Quote

What some asked for here was just a political safe space, which I find it ironic.. of all places. For you to advance the discussion you gotta keep talking. Maybe y'all are placing me under hued glasses lately and not getting it. I'll keep trying to make through to you. Someone who thinks differently doesn't deserve violent acts against them.. or mocked.. or called names. Understanding comes from the heart— it's how civility formed.

In actual fact, I think a lot of users are very interested in getting an alternative viewpoint. You cannot discuss subjects constructively in a frictionless vacuum. The problem is that you are not often providing an alternative viewpoint, but mostly empty soundbites from third party sources without any actual meat behind them when questioned. You cannot just throw some poorly thought through and highly biased/inflammatory opinions out there and then claim that when people question you on it that you are trying to open their minds. That is like setting someone's house on fire and then claiming that you did it in their best interest because now they know that they should buy a sprinkler system. There is no causal relation or sensible substance to it. so at the very least it would be worth practicing what you (claim to) preach and consider why you are being perceived by others to be inflammatory and contradictory instead of being a valued discussion partner.

I think Gorefest wins this round, haha. More or less exactly what I was going to say.

It's true that having Nico around is good to see alternative points of view, and we shouldn't be personally attacking him for his views, but asking for a certain standard of debate and not just posting junk links for a reaction is perfectly reasonable.

And the old "you're getting upset because it's true" line is rubbish. Some people experience frustration at not being able to explain themselves clearly enough. Others, at having to explain the same thing repeatedly. And still others because they find the ideas of the other participant in a debate truly disturbing/horrifying/disgusting/offensive. That doesn't necessarily mean the other person has a point, though. And let's be honest, it's an easy line to throw out to try and make your argument seem like it's winning or "more logical", when really all you're doing is showing that you're not invested in the discussion - and far too many people use that in households to make their significant other feel like their arguments are "irrational". At which point it becomes gaslighting.
So I guess add that to the call for a higher standard of argument. I can make completely bullshit arguments without ever feeling the need to raise my voice or getting invested in the discussion. Doesn't make those arguments any stronger or more true. When your argument is sound it's called being dispassionate, and that's all well and good. But when your argument is not sound, it's just called being an asshole.

[Mentalist]

Nicodimas, on 11 July 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

Alternative Goose, on 10 July 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 10 July 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

Alternative Goose, on 09 July 2018 - 05:43 PM, said:

Let's try to respect other users viewpoints and be a bit more constructive.

Can you please tell Nico to respect our time too, then? Because if he would actually bother with reading what everyone else is writing in this thread, a lot of the ruder stuff directed at him wouldn't have occurred.

Say that to him, not to me. That's what this thread is for after all. Discussions. In a civil fashion.

I'll state what I always say when people complain about, Nico. Even though I vehemently disagree with him a lot and find his beliefs frustrating, he represents the other side of a lot issues that most of the rest of us agree upon. I think it's valuable and often insightful to hear what Nico thinks or what kind of (blatant propaganda and nonsense ) sources he is pulling news from.

If you don't engage "the enemy" you can't learn from the. And the Malazan DB is a great place to do just that because we mostly keep things civil and constructive.

If you don't like what Nico has to say, ignore him. But don't be rude just because he makes himself the republican lightning rod on the forum.

I’m not the enemy. That’s a redic statement. Lol. I’m not even that right wing which I find ironic here.

As a note I don’t mind it. The hostility means I’m getting through. Usually when people get defensive it means it bothers apart of them. Always been that way with folks. Next time you get defensive look inwardly on why it’s invoking these emotions and how you should control them. If anything sets you off that bad —you always gotta wonder why? There’s a reason and I am listening..

What some asked for here was just a political safe space, which I find it ironic.. of all places. For you to advance the discussion you gotta keep talking. Maybe y’all are placing me under hued glasses lately and not getting it. I’ll keep trying to make through to you. Someone who thinks differently doesn’t deserve violent acts against them.. or mocked.. or called names. Understanding comes from the heart— it’s how civility formed.

I'm more than willing to listen to most of the stuff you write.
But I'm not going to try to hijack this thread and turn into another Russia-bashing thread (we have one for that, and I'm perfectly willing to engage anyone in discussion there, even if I haven't felt like continuing my monologues there for a while now).

However, you are posting a link from a resource that's openly funded by the Russian government to present their own opinion to the English-speaking world. This isn't "alternative media" , this is straight-up propaganda, from a state I have view as abhorrent.
RT is not a source of "alternative political narrative" for Americans. It is not a brainchild of one of the American conglomerates (which would suggest tat it represents the viewpoint of some element of the American establishment. It is, to put it bluntly, a foreign influencer.

So unless you are willing to acknowledge that America's interests are now defined by Russian foreign policy (as RT is a well-known instrument of said foreign policy), I don't see how it can be considered a valid resource in a discussion of any American issues.

Note that I am NOT getting into speculation as to whether Trump and Co are "Russian agents". I'm purely pointing out why I feel your use of RT to argue anything concerning American politics is inappropriate

[QuickTidal]

Mentalist, on 11 July 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

I'm purely pointing out why I feel your use of RT to argue anything concerning American politics is inappropriate

Inappropriate at best...I would also call it unpatriotic to be an American of any stripe and try to use a foreign states' propaganda arm to prop up any discussion on America or its politics. Either Nico is unaware of what RT is, or he's purposely trolling?

[Nicodimas]

Gorefest, on 11 July 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

Nicodimas, on 11 July 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

Usually when people get defensive it means it bothers apart of them. Always been that way with folks. Next time you get defensive look inwardly on why it's invoking these emotions and how you should control them. If anything sets you off that bad —you always gotta wonder why? There's a reason and I am listening..

I think you are mixing up irritation with defensiveness. You are not actually engaging in discussions most of the time in this thread or others. Instead, you come into a conversation with at best mildly related subject matter that you offer up through web links and third party opinions instead of personal input, opinions which are often obtained from highly questionable sources or being a rehash of something that has been extensively rebutted several times previously. And then you just sit back and watch the reactions unfold. In actual fact you have been asked multiple times by various users to clarify your points or to engage in a constructive debate, but you hardly ever do so. That is not having a discussion, that is bordering on trolling.

Quote

What some asked for here was just a political safe space, which I find it ironic.. of all places. For you to advance the discussion you gotta keep talking. Maybe y'all are placing me under hued glasses lately and not getting it. I'll keep trying to make through to you. Someone who thinks differently doesn't deserve violent acts against them.. or mocked.. or called names. Understanding comes from the heart— it's how civility formed.

In actual fact, I think a lot of users are very interested in getting an alternative viewpoint. You cannot discuss subjects constructively in a frictionless vacuum. The problem is that you are not often providing an alternative viewpoint, but mostly empty soundbites from third party sources without any actual meat behind them when questioned. You cannot just throw some poorly thought through and highly biased/inflammatory opinions out there and then claim that when people question you on it that you are trying to open their minds. That is like setting someone's house on fire and then claiming that you did it in their best interest because now they know that they should buy a sprinkler system. There is no causal relation or sensible substance to it. so at the very least it would be worth practicing what you (claim to) preach and consider why you are being perceived by others to be inflammatory and contradictory instead of being a valued discussion partner.

Interesting. I’ll take that under advisement. I’m not and never been worried about being regarded equally here as I know that most likely will always be impossible here. It has never bothered me at all so don’t stress it for real. My aims are my own!

For isntance, i get PMs often from elements who are afraid to challenge the more left wing views of the forums. They don’t even dare post, so I consider myself their shield anvil—so will continue to post through the onslaught and tide.

( I will admit I’m not sure why one source is good and bad as if it makes a good point you should be able to acknowledge what is going on exactly and where it stems from— even if it bugs ya— there’s all sorts of disinformation that is posted and spread and people just go with one as it what presents most agreeable information. That’s strange to me. What makes a journalist who is spewing forth political party propaganda any different)

Secondly if it’s just bad information, is it lava? Like why is it so hard to read, digest, supposition that these exact points are incorrect. Example: NATO being disbanded would be terrible Nico, it’s helped keep the peace for this long as this is why... etc etc.

If you have questions about “empty sound bites” wouldn’t it be far more constructive to ask why, where that example was used, how conclusions were drawn. Most times I don’t post overtly long thought processes here—> but short to the point reasoning’s for this very specific reason. You put in- what you know your getting out of it.

Be like worry and amphibian! as they actively will break down points and discuss it really well. I get it. Not a frictionless vacuum, but geez I also strive for a good well thought out rebuttal too. I don’t think I have lowered myself to attacking and lowering myself to mere attacks. Well not that I remember. I have too much respect for y’all.

Anyhow not stressing it. Continue discussion ..I always am striving to bring up a A game conversation here.

[Mentalist]

I have a problem with a single source you use. I explained why (the country I was born in is in a de-facto war against the country that's funding said source).
We have a separate thread dealing with that. I'm not going to hijack this thread to dissect why Russian media should not have any bearing on a discussion of US' internal politics.

[worry]

All that's fine, I just don't think people should take out their frustration with Republicans/MAGAs on Nico. Being a Republican is among the worst things on earth you can be, and (as he's stated) he doesn't identify as one. He's also not a right-wing caricature, even though some of his beliefs would be on the right side of a political chart, sure (also I think he trolls more often than he's admitting, but whatevs, I've never had a problem with occasional trolling). So by all means give him guff when he's wrong, or when he's Shield Anviling for this board's hidden cadre of coward conservatives, and ignore the hell out of that "Tyler Durden" blog he posts once in a while, but I just don't think it's fair to treat him as a GOP (or for that matter NRA) spokesperson.

Now back to USA Politics: Anyone notice that in the past few weeks Donald Trump tried to convince everyone in South America to help invade Venezuela, his charity has been exposed as the money funneling outfit it is (and all of his main kids were involved in the scam) Link, and that he pardoned the Bundy family-related arson convicts whose case inspired that violent takeover of federal land in 2016, signaling to anti-gov/sovereign citizen types that he has their back?

[Primateus]

Nico, you make it sound like there's some sort of monolithic, left wing hive mind that'll jump on anyone who deviates from the group think. I think our benign, yet tyrannical, overlords, the moderators , have earned enough of our respect that we can trust they will clamp down on any unacceptable behavior. Not that I think you doubt our mods, Nico, but it kinda sounds like the secret shadow conservatives lurking on the forum might.

Step forward, show us what you got. Present your opinions. If they're genuine and sincerely held, no one is going to jump down your throats and try to strangle you. I'm not saying people will agree, or even let your posts go unchallenged, but they will be considered.

Oh, Primateus, why don't you participate more often then? Well, frankly, I'm not particularly good at expressing my opinions as I once thought I was. So in order to avoid misunderstandings, I either don't participate at all (except for the odd sarcastic/trolling remark), or I qualify my remarks with "Or something like that".

Because I'm an idiot.

So please, come forth, we want to hear from you. We want to learn what you have to say. And maybe, just maybe, you'll learn something yourselves. It is easier to evolve by having your beliefs challenged.


Now, to Sassy's comment. Trump pardoned the Bundys? How far does his pardoning power extend?

[JPK]

So, it's not the Bundys that were pardoned, it was the Hammonds. And I'm not necessarily sure that he was wrong with this pardon.

[worry]

Not the Bundys in particular, just the arsonists who inspired that event a couple years ago. More details here: https://www.cnn.com/...rdon/index.html
As far as I know, a president's pardoning power is absolute for federal cases.

[worry]

JPK, on 11 July 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

So, it's not the Bundys that were pardoned, it was the Hammonds. And I'm not necessarily sure that he was wrong with this pardon.

I'm not a cheerleader for the prison industry by any means, but do you think this case came to DJT's attention by twist of fate, or that his pardon wasn't a signal to a faction of his base, on par with the pardons of Arpaio, D'Souza, or Scooter Libby?

Edit: Now that you make that point though, I went to double- and triple-check if they were actually pardoned or if their sentence were commuted, and it appears they were definitely pardoned. Commutation would be one thing, but I do personally think the full pardons support my reading of what this really means.

This post has been edited by Luv2B_Sassy: 11 July 2018 - 07:37 PM

[Primateus]

Well, apart from the fact that these criminals won't be serving their justly deserved sentence, at least there's one good thing come out of this, and those other pardons you mention, Worry.

Accepting a pardon, isn't that an admission of guilt?

[JPK]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 11 July 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

JPK, on 11 July 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

So, it's not the Bundys that were pardoned, it was the Hammonds. And I'm not necessarily sure that he was wrong with this pardon.

I'm not a cheerleader for the prison industry by any means, but do you think this case came to DJT's attention by twist of fate, or that his pardon wasn't a signal to a faction of his base, on par with the pardons of Arpaio, D'Souza, or Scooter Libby?

It is almost entirely that.

Otoh, the Hammonds were convicted of arson because a controlled burn that was supposedly targeting invasive species (an argument was made that it was set to cover up deer poaching) spread from their land to federal property. That conviction was deserved. They had the sentence reduced, and served the time of the reduced sentence. After release, the shortened sentences were appealed and they were sent back to serve the rest of the sentence based on mandatory minimums. That's the issue that I have with what happened to the Hammonds, once they served the time and were released, they shouldn't have had to go back in. Also, mandatory minimums are sheer bullshit.

[worry]

Oh yah, I'm 100% with you on that.

[worry]

Primateus, on 11 July 2018 - 07:36 PM, said:

Well, apart from the fact that these criminals won't be serving their justly deserved sentence, at least there's one good thing come out of this, and those other pardons you mention, Worry.

Accepting a pardon, isn't that an admission of guilt?

I've heard that and it appears to be essentially true! But like many things, apparently it's more complicated than that? https://www.washingt...ssion-of-guilt/ Though that is an Op-Ed, not necessarily the final word on the technical legal truth of the matter.

[Malankazooie]

[Gorefest]

Briar King, on 11 July 2018 - 09:12 PM, said:

Feel like I should speak even though I ll probably (like always in this thread) get bitched at. Yes our mods here are truly great and don't throw the hammer around unlike say The Force. Net (where I was banned for voting Trump basically)

Nobody in their right mind should ban you for voting Trump. It is watching the Bachelor in an unashamed way that is crossing the line of common decency and moral standards.