[Tiste Simeon]

QuickTidal, on 03 November 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

....and sweet merciful hell...what is going on?!

https://thinkprogres...e-b2e65e7200e2/

So he's a narcissistic incompetent bellend, what's news about that?

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 03 November 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 November 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

....and sweet merciful hell...what is going on?!

https://thinkprogres...e-b2e65e7200e2/

So he's a narcissistic incompetent bellend, what's news about that?

Ha! Indeed. I guess I'm just astonished how despotic he always sounds.

[worry]

Vengeance, on 02 November 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

This explains so much. Really it is a reflection on both obama and the DNC how poorly they fundraised between 2012 and 2016 to find themselves in that position.

https://www.politico...cks-2016-215774

Sarah Jones at the New Republic has a pretty good diagnosis, that avoids (as best as it can, given the context) re-litigating the primary: https://newrepublic....5659/dnc-broken

It's in line with what you say: this is a DNC problem, and as she summarizes on Twitter: the party relies on consultants too much and it neglects the states.
The Clinton takeover exacerbated an existing problem.

Maybe a bit too wonky for the purposes of this thread, but I think it makes a good overall case on the DNC half of our political problem.

[Mentalist]

worry, on 03 November 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 02 November 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

This explains so much. Really it is a reflection on both obama and the DNC how poorly they fundraised between 2012 and 2016 to find themselves in that position.

https://www.politico...cks-2016-215774

Sarah Jones at the New Republic has a pretty good diagnosis, that avoids (as best as it can, given the context) re-litigating the primary: https://newrepublic....5659/dnc-broken

It's in line with what you say: this is a DNC problem, and as she summarizes on Twitter: the party relies on consultants too much and it neglects the states.
The Clinton takeover exacerbated an existing problem.

Maybe a bit too wonky for the purposes of this thread, but I think it makes a good overall case on the DNC half of our political problem.

So the Dems are hopelessly out of touch with their base, while the Reps turned their base into frothing morons and are now dragged in its wake.

So how the hell do you overhaul that socio-political set-up?

[worry]

1) Remove money from politics.
2) End gerrymandering.
3) Dems should offer voters a reason to vote for them.
...3a) Instead of sucking the blood from progressive ideals by lying about how impossible they are.
...3b) Instead of 'triangulating' by conceding all of Republicans' points but arguing for watered down versions of their solutions.

Obama did a lot of good AND a lot of bad, policy-wise.
But his most poisonous, wrongheaded political stance was that "both parties love America and want to see it improve, we just have honest disagreements on how to go about it." Every Democrat who ascribes to that nonsense will lose, and deserves to. How about instead of reaching across the aisle to vulture capitalists and white nationalists to scrape a few 'moderate right' voters you actually inspire the vast ocean of people on your side to vote for your good ideas that help people?

[Silencer]

^this, and by doing so, actually get the participation rate up to something respectable.

[HoosierDaddy]

worry, on 04 November 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

1) Remove money from politics.
2) End gerrymandering.
3) Dems should offer voters a reason to vote for them.
...3a) Instead of sucking the blood from progressive ideals by lying about how impossible they are.
...3b) Instead of 'triangulating' by conceding all of Republicans' points but arguing for watered down versions of their solutions.

Obama did a lot of good AND a lot of bad, policy-wise.
But his most poisonous, wrongheaded political stance was that "both parties love America and want to see it improve, we just have honest disagreements on how to go about it." Every Democrat who ascribes to that nonsense will lose, and deserves to. How about instead of reaching across the aisle to vulture capitalists and white nationalists to scrape a few 'moderate right' voters you actually inspire the vast ocean of people on your side to vote for your good ideas that help people?

I'm not sure that vast ocean of people exists, Worry. I've yet to see evidence of it.

This is a stubborn nation, that is proud of being stubborn. Somehow, asking for help has turned into such a terrible thing that lots look down, or perceive, it's looked down on in pretty much everything.

Welfare, mental health, medicine, etc.

I'd argue the vast ocean of people would agree with you internally, but never espouse it publicly.

[worry]

H. D., on 04 November 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

I'd argue the vast ocean of people would agree with you internally, but never espouse it publicly.

That's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's counter to my point. If it's true -- they feel it internally but don't express it -- and yet even then a strong plurality of Dems do express it (http://news.gallup.c...shift-left.aspx), what might that say about the people who are but don't express it?

Dems tend to be further left socially than economically, that's true (and not really surprising, given the wealth gap insecurity combined with your very true assertions about how people see/delude themselves), but the polling still suggests that even economically they are left or left-leaning moderate. I would argue that it takes a huge, constantly functioning right-wing propaganda machine to stall or reverse the momentum of that tendency, and even then it's only possible in the face of cynical politicians crowding out heartfelt progressives. If you go policy by policy, without a TV head screaming people in their faces about how impossible very basic, well-proven lefty ideals are, people even tend to support them. In other words, if you correct for the malaise of cynicism that infects everyone and everything when it comes to politics, most Dems (and potential Dem voters) are essentially New Deal Dems or better, and that's the spirit that can be (and has to be) inspired.

[Vengeance]

Paradise papers... Sweet Jesus.


https://qz.com/11207...ing-inequality/

[Vengeance]

https://www.usatoday...irms/835671001/

[worry]

The Wilbur Ross stuff is pretty damning. I mean, Putin's son-in-law!
The sad fact is, at this level the differences between business as usual and organized crime are nil.

[Vengeance]

worry, on 06 November 2017 - 07:38 PM, said:

The Wilbur Ross stuff is pretty damning. I mean, Putin's son-in-law!
The sad fact is, at this level the differences between business as usual and organized crime are nil.

Very true.

[worry]

I can't even pretend to understand what's happening in Saudi Arabia, but it might actually have a connection to Jared Kushner's low key trips there, and weapons deals with Russia?
https://twitter.com/...673924258861064

Oligarchs, man. Can't live with em, can't live without em, according to them.

[Tiste Simeon]

Judging by how one of the Panama Papers journalists was killed in mysterious circumstances murdered recently I hope these Paradise Papers chaps are looking after themselves...

[worry]

Wow, it looks like New Jersey is going full blue w/ a slate of progressive policies in tow. Virginia's gov race is remaining blue too w/ a moderate Dem but against a very Trumpian Republican candidate, and VA seems to have also voted in the first openly trans state legislator in American history (running against the author of Virginia's version of the bathroom bill, no less) and also a Dem Socialist won his race in that state.

[Tiste Simeon]

Seems like the elections that happened yesterday in the States are injecting a bit of hope amidst the idiocy of the current Republican administration. Is that accurate?

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 08 November 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

Seems like the elections that happened yesterday in the States are injecting a bit of hope amidst the idiocy of the current Republican administration. Is that accurate?

From what I can tell, it's not just the wins per say, but also the amounts of people that came out and voted (someone at the Post said that it was Presidential election-level voter turnout), the overt difference between the votes by wide margins, that like 10 seats in one state which have been held by men for a while were all flipped to women, and my personal fave: that the asshole homophobic guy who was running in one place was unseated by the first transgender woman (Danica Roam I think is her name?). That's kind of awesome.

Also, it's funny to see Trump yesterday morning tweet support and embracing of the guy who lost in Virginia (Gillespie?)...and after he loses tweets distancing himself from the guy claiming he was never on board with Trump's plans. It's literally a microcosm of what it must be like to be associated with Trump. As long as you are working FOR him...he'll say nice things...but the minute you aren't towing the line or you are getting in hot water...he claims to not know you at all.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 08 November 2017 - 04:58 PM

[worry]

The hope is real. Not only did Roem defeat the bathroom bill guy, the Dem Socialist who won in Virginia unseated the state's House majority whip, and without the help of the Democratic Party. Lots of progressives won, with a few other historic trans people winning their races in smaller races (like Andrea Jenkins for Minneapolis City Council).

One thing I'm seeing is a repudiation of the idea that identity politics is a turnoff, like a lot of moderate talking heads claimed after 2016. Voters understand, if politicians don't, that identity politics = human rights policy. Every time an R gets elected and starts dismantling those rights, it's made pretty clear. But it's about the candidate -- you can't just stand up some empty suit who happens to be part of a vulnerable population.

For instance, another great victory: the man who won District Attorney race in Philadelphia isn't a prosecutor, but a civil rights attorney. If this becomes a trend, the Jeff Sessions of the world become less and less relevant.

And I'm not saying HRC is an empty suit -- an establishment Dem shill is still materially and even ideologically superior to any Republican in nearly every way, and the race for VA governor is emblematic of that. Northam isn't particularly left, and he's getting much-deserved blowback from progressives for his disgusting comments on sanctuary cities already. I think there's still going to be tension between actual progressives and the wieners in the establishment class, because groundswell politics is where it's at and the latter have a hard time not suckling from the money troughs. But as long as the pressure keeps coming from the left -- as long as Dems are scared to lose their seats when they don't represent their constituencies and not just the donors -- even the more traditional Dem victories last night are a sign of a good thing.

[QuickTidal]

worry, on 08 November 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

The hope is real. Not only did Roem defeat the bathroom bill guy, the Dem Socialist who won in Virginia unseated the state's House majority whip, and without the help of the Democratic Party. Lots of progressives won, with a few other historic trans people winning their races in smaller races (like Andrea Jenkins for Minneapolis City Council).

One thing I'm seeing is a repudiation of the idea that identity politics is a turnoff, like a lot of moderate talking heads claimed after 2016. Voters understand, if politicians don't, that identity politics = human rights policy. Every time an R gets elected and starts dismantling those rights, it's made pretty clear. But it's about the candidate -- you can't just stand up some empty suit who happens to be part of a vulnerable population.

For instance, another great victory: the man who won District Attorney race in Philadelphia isn't a prosecutor, but a civil rights attorney. If this becomes a trend, the Jeff Sessions of the world become less and less relevant.

And I'm not saying HRC is an empty suit -- an establishment Dem shill is still materially and even ideologically superior to any Republican in nearly every way, and the race for VA governor is emblematic of that. Northam isn't particularly left, and he's getting much-deserved blowback from progressives for his disgusting comments on sanctuary cities already. I think there's still going to be tension between actual progressives and the wieners in the establishment class, because groundswell politics is where it's at and the latter have a hard time not suckling from the money troughs. But as long as the pressure keeps coming from the left -- as long as Dems are scared to lose their seats when they don't represent their constituencies and not just the donors -- even the more traditional Dem victories last night are a sign of a good thing.

I'm not going to pretend to understand all of this, but I appreciate you being a conduit to at least helping a Canadian moderately understand US politics on a daily basis Worry. Thanks!

[worry]

I guess my overall feeling is that last night showed both that the #Resistance AND the groundswell left are both alive and well, and are dead set on not repeating 2016? And that the fights I see on Twitter/TV/etc. aren't the end-all of progressive politics (there are some real dead between the ears centrist Dems in the pundit-sphere). My preferences tend to start w/ Bernie and go left from there, of course, but I think what both constituencies have in common -- among voters, if not the consultant class and other vampires -- is an interest in good governance and the outcomes of policy. That's what really separates Dems from GOP voters (a fix-it vs a tear-it-down mindset), and it's good to see victories across the board even if some individual winners are more centrist than I'd like (the New Jersey Dem governor is yet another Goldman Sachs guy, for instance). I'd like to hope that voter pressure is more powerful than donor pressure, and it certainly can be with bottom-up candidates like we've seen in some of these races.

This post has been edited by worry: 08 November 2017 - 09:30 PM