[Midnight]

SPOILERS


SPOILERS


SPOILERS

As several people have mentioned already one of the pieces of information in OST that seems to conflict with previous books is the implication that Kruppe has been an eternal opponent of the Tyrant. A couple of times I even found myself wondering if he was one of the Twelve who went rogue.

This clashes a bit with the statement in MoI that Kruppe is simply mortal but highly intelligent (TTH complicates this a bit of course but it's possible Kruppe's omniscience in that book is more of a narrative technique). Two thoughts come to mind as to how this might be resolved without one of the two statements being false:

1) Kruppe's a mage and they do tend to live a while so he could simply have been around a while fighting the Tyrant.

2) It isn't Kruppe who has been opposing the Tyrant but rather the Eel or Circle Breaker and these have acted as inherited titles. So Kruppe would be one of a long line opposing the rule of the Tyrants.

Thoughts?

[Mob]

I agree. Kruppe is not a regular mortal. The text strongly implies that he has been opposing the Tyrant for a long time, perhaps since the first Tyrant of the city. The fact that he knows how to kill him is significant. He also clearly has no fear of the Tyrant when he eventually confronts him (granted, the Tyrant has already been shot with 15 Dragnipur-infused crossbow bolts). In his final discussion with K'Rul at the end of the book, Kruppe strongly implies that he himself is centuries old. And OST should basically be read as Kruppe's unseen hand/master plan guiding the defeat of the Tyrant.

So I think we should see him as an old - possibly ancient - figure, of unknown powers/abilities, but whom has been successfully opposing the Tyrants for a very long time indeed.

One more thing: we know that he is responsible for stealing the shards of Dragnipur from Baruk, and then having them forged into the crossbow bolts that kill the Legate.

Interestingly... at approximately the same period, in The Crippled God (OST occurring more or less simultaneously to TCG, give or take), Kruppe briefly appears to give Torrent a bow, with arrows, that he uses to kill Olar Ethil. Kruppe wants to protect his daughters by Hetan, who later married Tool. Now, Olar Ethil is so old that she is almost a force of nature. One of the true elders of the Malazan world. In the dramatis personae section of FoD, she is listed under 'others', so not even 'Azathanai', and she herself implies that she is almost elemental and came before almost everyone/everything. And yet a single arrow (admittedly, through the eye) takes her out.

I do wonder whether that arrow was, like the crossbow bolts, a Dragnipur-infused weapon that Kruppe had Barathol/Humble Measure forge in OST. After all, Dragnipur was awesome for killing super-powerful entities.

This post has been edited by Mob: 01 January 2015 - 06:26 PM

[Gorefest]

He's probably Grizzin Farl.

[Mob]

He could be...

[Abyss]

Mob, on 01 January 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

...

Interestingly... at approximately the same period, in The Crippled God (OST occurring more or less simultaneously to TCG, give or take), Kruppe briefly appears to give Torrent a bow, with arrows, that he uses to kill Olar Ethil. ?..a single arrow (admittedly, through the eye) takes her out.

I do wonder whether that arrow was, like the crossbow bolts, a Dragnipur-infused weapon that Kruppe had Barathol/Humble Measure forge in OST. After all, Dragnipur was awesome for killing super-powerful entities.

I may be remembering wrong, but doesn't Kruppe tell Torrent the weapons are Rhivi?

[Mob]

Yes, he does. So I might be totally wrong. But, still, the arrow could plausibly have been 'enhanced', considering that Kruppe was doing the exact same thing with crossbow bolts at approximately the same time.

[tiam]

I agree about Kruppe being retconned to be the immortal enemy of the Tyrant aswell as been known by alot of the bigger entities. MOI Kruppe as a mortal mind sought out by Elders is a much better character but yes they have changed him to be alot more noteworthy than a mortal who cares about his city.

[Mob]

Yes, it would be interesting to learn if/when SE and ICE decided to do this. I don't know whether Kruppe was originally an RPG character.

But OST should basically be read as the implementation of Kruppe's master plan to foil the Tyran - for the umpteenth time. I thought it was well executed by ICE. You would think that at some point the Tyrant would have looked to recruit someone capable of killing/imprisoning/neutralising Kruppe in order to keep him out of the game. What a dumb-ass Tyrant.

[Twisty]

I have to agree with Mob's last post - we somehow have to believe that this Tyrant enslaved the city for centuries and is now free again, but seeks no intelligence on how to deal with threats (Caladan Brood) and, critically, makes no move whatsoever to deal with Kruppe, his number one enemy. Seems a bit unbelievable really. ICE really needed to have some more characters discuss the Tyrant so we'd have more back story, more idea of its motives and more idea of its powers.

[Mob]

Making sense of the motivations/background of key characters isn't his strong suit - Riders from SW spring to mind.

[Fiddler]

I didn't get the idea that Kruppe was eternal at all from that book, is there a quote you can reference?

He's a middling mage at best, but what makes him dangerous is how smart he is.

[Abyss]

Mob, on 02 January 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yes, he does. So I might be totally wrong. But, still, the arrow could plausibly have been 'enhanced', considering that Kruppe was doing the exact same thing with crossbow bolts at approximately the same time.

It's a neat theory.

[Mob]

Fiddler, on 03 January 2015 - 05:27 AM, said:

I didn't get the idea that Kruppe was eternal at all from that book, is there a quote you can reference?

He's a middling mage at best, but what makes him dangerous is how smart he is.

Somewhere in the first half of OST (apologies I can't find the exact quotation/page ref.) a character remarks that someone will contest the Tyrant's rise - the same person who always contests it. From the way the plot unfolds, it can only conceivably be Kruppe. At the very end of the book, while speaking with Tayschrenn, Kruppe implies that he is centuries old - he is 'no stranger' to learning skills over centuries. On p. 779, when Kruppe confronts the Tyrant, he says 'come then, Legate! Let us dance again' - which struck me as pretty conclusive. He also knows how to kill the Tyrant.

In The Crippled God, he is able to project himself across continents to speak to Torrent. Moreover he is able to do so whilst Torrent is with Olar Ethil - AND without her detecting him. Considering how powerful she is, being able to slip under her nose is interesting. Kruppe is no 'middling mage'.

Throughout OST, I also noticed hints that Kruppe's physical appearance is hinted at as being somehow false. The references to how slick his oily hair is, and one or two other things; it all sounds fake. I had the impression that Kruppe is wearing a disguise, probably to cover who he is.

[Gorefest]

Gorefest, on 01 January 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

He's probably Grizzin Farl.

[Fiddler]

Mob, on 03 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Fiddler, on 03 January 2015 - 05:27 AM, said:

I didn't get the idea that Kruppe was eternal at all from that book, is there a quote you can reference?

He's a middling mage at best, but what makes him dangerous is how smart he is.

Somewhere in the first half of OST (apologies I can't find the exact quotation/page ref.) a character remarks that someone will contest the Tyrant's rise - the same person who always contests it. From the way the plot unfolds, it can only conceivably be Kruppe. At the very end of the book, while speaking with Tayschrenn, Kruppe implies that he is centuries old - he is 'no stranger' to learning skills over centuries. On p. 779, when Kruppe confronts the Tyrant, he says 'come then, Legate! Let us dance again' - which struck me as pretty conclusive. He also knows how to kill the Tyrant.

In The Crippled God, he is able to project himself across continents to speak to Torrent. Moreover he is able to do so whilst Torrent is with Olar Ethil - AND without her detecting him. Considering how powerful she is, being able to slip under her nose is interesting. Kruppe is no 'middling mage'.

Throughout OST, I also noticed hints that Kruppe's physical appearance is hinted at as being somehow false. The references to how slick his oily hair is, and one or two other things; it all sounds fake. I had the impression that Kruppe is wearing a disguise, probably to cover who he is.

You can believe Kruppe is Whiskeyjack if you want to, but most of what's written about him is a purposeful double entendre, for example the dancing part could reference the fete at Lady Simtal's estate that both Kruppe and the actual man who was elected Legate were at. The vague bits are exactly that, vague, and make nice theories but there ultimately is no proof without a direct quote. Also, I read the ebook version so a page number is more or less meaningless to me.

[Mob]

Fiddler, on 04 January 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

Mob, on 03 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Fiddler, on 03 January 2015 - 05:27 AM, said:

I didn't get the idea that Kruppe was eternal at all from that book, is there a quote you can reference?

He's a middling mage at best, but what makes him dangerous is how smart he is.

Somewhere in the first half of OST (apologies I can't find the exact quotation/page ref.) a character remarks that someone will contest the Tyrant's rise - the same person who always contests it. From the way the plot unfolds, it can only conceivably be Kruppe. At the very end of the book, while speaking with Tayschrenn, Kruppe implies that he is centuries old - he is 'no stranger' to learning skills over centuries. On p. 779, when Kruppe confronts the Tyrant, he says 'come then, Legate! Let us dance again' - which struck me as pretty conclusive. He also knows how to kill the Tyrant.

In The Crippled God, he is able to project himself across continents to speak to Torrent. Moreover he is able to do so whilst Torrent is with Olar Ethil - AND without her detecting him. Considering how powerful she is, being able to slip under her nose is interesting. Kruppe is no 'middling mage'.

Throughout OST, I also noticed hints that Kruppe's physical appearance is hinted at as being somehow false. The references to how slick his oily hair is, and one or two other things; it all sounds fake. I had the impression that Kruppe is wearing a disguise, probably to cover who he is.

You can believe Kruppe is Whiskeyjack if you want to, but most of what's written about him is a purposeful double entendre, for example the dancing part could reference the fete at Lady Simtal's estate that both Kruppe and the actual man who was elected Legate were at. The vague bits are exactly that, vague, and make nice theories but there ultimately is no proof without a direct quote. Also, I read the ebook version so a page number is more or less meaningless to me.

You are right, there's definitely no proof. But there is some intriguing evidence.

[melonhead]

Abyss, on 03 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Mob, on 02 January 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yes, he does. So I might be totally wrong. But, still, the arrow could plausibly have been 'enhanced', considering that Kruppe was doing the exact same thing with crossbow bolts at approximately the same time.

It's a neat theory.

Wasn't she made mortal again just before she took an arrow to the eye? She was T'lan, but then the blood of Fener made her alive again, which essentially meant a regular arrow could take her out.
I could be remembering wrong though.

[worry]

That's a fact, Jack. I always think of them as the arrows Tool makes for Toc in MOI, and their ending up in Torrent's hands is poetic justice. But then I remember they're Rhivi arrows and that gets thrown out the window.